Bench Front, work support

[Mike Holbrook]

I am having a little trouble making a final decision on my bench design having to do with work support on the front of the bench. The popular answer is a sliding deadman. I am doing something a little different though which requires the use of dog holes in the edge of the bench front. I have Glide Leg Vise hardware on order to make my front vise. I am also using a Veritas Quick Release Tail Vise that will have dog holes both on the top and side of the jaw. I plan to use this vise to clamp to the top like a regular tail vise but I also plan to use it to clamp and or support work on the front side of the bench as well. Since I plan to use round dog holes both in the front top edge and side I am concerned about adding a deadman to the equation.

Bob Lang has a design close to the Roubo Split Top Roubo plans I have been working on, 21st Century Workbench, except he adds a sort of front apron ala Nickelson to the front and back sides of his bench for clamping and work support. He uses a 5 3/4" x 1 3/4" rail between the top and bottom rail, dovetailed into the two legs of the bench. He leaves 6" between the top of his bench and the rail/apron so he can still reach the front edge of the bench for clamping etc. This additional rail provides more structural support and a more rigid surface for dog holes and clamps like the Veritas Surface Clamp. I like the idea of the more rigid clamping surface. Since my tail vise is a QR with over 7" of travel I think I can afford to spread the dogs in the top and sides of my bench out a little more, since it want require any more time or effort to adjust the vise 6" vs 3-4".

I am wondering if anyone here sees a potential problem with Bob's design vs the deadman, particularly considering the tail vise I plan to use?

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

I was in the bench research mode about 3 years ago. I decided on the Lang bench and couldn't be happier. I see no problem using the Veritas QR tail vise with his plan - in fact, I'd see it as an improvement on an already excellent design. The only thing you have to ensure is that the side of your jaw is in the same plane and absolutely parallel to the front of your bench - shouldn't be a problem.

I really like the myriad holding options on the front of the bench with the stretchers lined with dog holes. Though pricey, it works well with the Veritas surface clamp(s).

Sounds like its going to be a great bench whatever you decide! Have fun.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The way I work, I've never really needed to clamp anything to the front of a bench if I've got a good front vise. With a good front vise (the benchcrafted vise will be a good one) with some leather in the jaws, I clamp one end of the workpiece in that. That resists movement of the piece parallel to the front of the bench (say I was jointing an edge) and keeps the piece from flopping forwards. It also does most of the supporting the piece at the right height, keeping it from falling straight down from gravity. All the holes in the front of a bench apron, or on a deadman, or on a bench slave type thing need to do is keep the weight from the other end of a long board from levering the thing downwards so it falls down. A simple peg is most often enough, and means one less thing to unclamp - just open and close the vise, that's it.

I can't really think of an operation where I'd really need to clamp the piece tight to the apron, outside of maybe sawing, if I was trying to cut down on vibration, but at that point it's be work I'd want to do in a moxon or another vise.

[Mike Holbrook]

Jeff,

Just what I was hoping for real life experience! I am wondering how thick you made your stretchers? I think the plan says 1 3/4". I was confident that a Veritas Surface Clamp would work in that stretcher. I am also wondering about holdfasts. I have the Gramercy holdfasts and a Veritas Hold-Down. I have ordered Veritas Bench Anchors which I hope to be able to make clamping and stop jigs from to span larger areas. I believe they are designed to work in the top or side, even in shallower dog holes. One of my attractions to the stretchers is I believe they should work with clamping/holding devices that would not work well in a sliding deadman. Maybe you could share what devices you have found to work in whatever size strecher/rail you have on your bench?

I am also wondering if you made & use the 7.5" tool trays Bob's design uses? I have the Shop Class on line video for Lang's bench, which came with a downloadable PDF of the original article on making the bench but not a full set of plans (yet). I do have the plans for the Benchcrafted Split Top Roubo. I will at least use the information on building and adding the Glide Leg Vise. The Benchcrafted plans use a much smaller stop/tool holder 1 5/8".

[Mike Holbrook]

Missed your post Joshua,

I will be making cabinets, counter tops, table tops, a sliding barn type door to slide across the entrance to a gardening and woodworking tool shed... I thought pieces that size might need more clamping and support. Some of this work may be a little more construction oriented/larger/heavier than most people who make furniture might deal with?

I have also heard the suggestion that having multiple work stations on the same bench speeds things up, particularly for things like cabinet drawers and doors.

[Curt Putnam]

Mike,

If I understand correctly the leg vise will keep pretty much anything, including doors, from wiggling around too much. Still, you will want to provide a means to support large, heavy, long stuff from the bottom. That's what the sliding deadman is very good at. I think Joshua said he has not needed to clamp to the bench or stretcher yet. But there is nothing in your bench design that precludes that.

[Jim Matthews]

Two things influence the utility of the sliding deadman - the front of the bench and the deadman must be coplanar, and the rails must be parallel.

I use the Veritas surface clamp on my sliding deadman and the grip is plenty solid. What I find difficult is keeping the lower rail clear (mine rides on a skate wheel).

[Wilbur Pan]

I find that a leg vise and a sliding deadman will easily hold just about anything I can think of. Here's how a long board is dealt with.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vzZx2CXYqZA/TFy0E2yA-FI/AAAAAAAABNs/7OazpxDLdMI/s640/IMG_6507.JPG

And here's a deep/wide board:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-buEbpEgXjbU/TFy3mdLhAzI/AAAAAAAABN0/BSdL_xgN-Rw/s640/IMG_6509.JPG

You can combine the two, of course. And although I am using a clamp to hold the other end of the board in place in these examples, a holdfast or anything else that will fit into a 3/4" hole will work as well.

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

I am wondering how thick you made your stretchers? I think the plan says 1 3/4". I was confident that a Veritas Surface Clamp would work in that stretcher. I am also wondering about holdfasts. I have the Gramercy holdfasts and a Veritas Hold-Down. Maybe you could share what devices you have found to work in whatever size strecher/rail you have on your bench?I am also wondering if you made & use the 7.5" tool trays Bob's design uses? I made the stretchers according to plan - exactly 1 & 3/4. My benchtop is just shy of 3" thick (could have been 3.5, but had a little accident with the planer :mad:)I had the PW issue and his DVD for making the bench. Rob Bois also has a great blog where he runs through his build step-by-step; I watched that multiple times and was very appreciative of his fine work.I used Euro Beech for mine. At the time, I was able to get a better deal on 350 bf than for Ash here in Central Cal!Here are some pix I just took to describe the holding with holdfasts. The two I'm using were made by JR here on the creek. They are far superior to those I bought from Hartville Tool, which were cheap cast models. The grammercy I've heard good things about.I did make the tool trays, but even though I did that about a year ago, I've still not applied any finish which is why they differ in color from the bench.As to finish, I used a Beeswax, BLO, turpentine mix. I wouldn't do that again. The wax was too slippery and dripped down in my dogholes on top of the bench which has made it difficult for the holdfasts to hold. I've now got to go through and sand each one to take out the "slick!!" Ah well, mistakes are the best teachers.Oh, and please excuse the mess. I was going to FWW it up, but thought it'd be better if you saw it in its natural state! :DP.S. Wilbur - Nice lookin' bench!228239228240228241228242228243

[Mike Holbrook]

I understand that a Leg Vise and deadman work well together. Certainly everything has to be coplanar for the various surfaces to work together. I believe I may have a different issue than the posters thus far though. The Veritas QR Tail Vise I bought is made to work with dog holes in the edge of the bench top and dog holes in the top. My concern is mortising or attaching something for the deadman to travel on, on the same edge as the two sets of dog holes. The plan Bob Lang made for his 21st Century bench also places dog holes in the bottom rail or stretcher, which again may cause problems for the guide system for the deadman.

My question has to do with Bob Lang's alternative approach to a deadman. I am specifically trying to compare his alternative to a deadman in terms of functionality. I am thinking about using his solution because of the tail vise I plan to use not the leg vise. Bob uses a Quick Release vise for a second/end vise on his bench too. I can see that there is a good deal of cross over in terms of specific functions the two vises I have chosen can perform.

I have noticed that most deadman users seem to use the Veritas Surface clamp to secure work. I have also noticed that many of those with Nickelson aprons or semi aprons like Bob's tend to use holdfasts and hold-downs more. I suspect the permanent more rigid solution Bob uses on his bench for clamping provides the sturdier, thicker surface needed for holdfast type clamping devices. Any attraction I have to using holdfasts vs Surface Clamps would relate mostly to ease of use in this application. I am relatively confident that Bob's alternative adds more stability to the bench. Certainly one might argue that the ability to use holdfasts for this work and the additional bench stability are over kill. One might also argue that the deadman offers more, practically limitless, clamping positions....

For me the scale, of actual value added for the two clamping systems, has been tipping towards Bob's solution because of the unique needs of the tail vise I have chosen and my personal interest in being able to use holdfast type devices across the entire front of the bench. My concerns over using Bob's clamping idea have to do with a possible reduction in range of places I could place clamping devices. Although, I suspect the additional reach holdfast provide might eliminate any perceived limitations they might have in terms of range on the fixed rail.

Jeff made his post before I hit return on my post....
Again great info. Jeff, just what I was looking for. I think I am sold. I can certainly see that holdfasts work well in that rail and that is an attractive feature for me. I think I will end up with many more clamping options than I will typically need. At the same time it seems to me the goal of such a bench should be over kill in terms of clamping options. Interestingly, I just purchased European Beech to make my top from too. I found out that my supplier has a good supply of "shorts, roughs" at substantial savings. I am going back to search through the shorts for pieces I can make the base from. I did not have the time or space to get all the wood in one trip, as I was getting wood for a couple other projects too.

Those pictures are much appreciated and quite inspiring!

[Jim Matthews]

I like Jeff's "modified Nicholson" approach - it's simple and solid.

If the middle stretcher is damaged, it can be easily replaced. I suppose you'll need something stout to fix the holdfast.
I used a sliding deadman because there is a cabinet of drawers holding up my bench top. If you do employ a holdfast rail,
consider a crochet for face planing. Its shape works like a bird's mouth, as the board wedges into place.

If you're building a leg vise with off the shelf hardware, I recommend you build a Moxxon vise at the same time.
The Moxxon has become the most useful tool in my little shop.

jim
wpt, ma

[Bob Lang]

In my mind, simpler is generally better and the disadvantage I see to the sliding deadman is that it's one more thing to fuss with/adjust/keep clean. In using my bench for the last four years or so, I'm happy with my initial design decisions, but if I had to build another bench I would consider making the front section of the top a lamination or two wider than the back and make the trays an inch or two narrower. In my experience, the extra clamping capability of the deadman or the wide rail on my bench isn't needed everyday, but when something big comes along the option of sticking it to the front of the bench is really useful. The Veritas Surface Clamps are very nice, but much fussier than a holdfast. I use a holdfast in the rail if I can, it is a rare combination of size that can't be reached with a holdfast. If all I need to do is support the bottom of something, I usually use a simple shop-made dog or one of the Veritas brass dogs. I also often use a dog below the twin screw vise to provide additional support from below. The rail is stiff enough that an F-style clamp can be used, as seen in Wilbur's photo, but I aim the bar in to keep from banging my knee on it.

Bob Lang

[Mike Holbrook]

Bob, great bench design. I discovered it after I had ordered Benchcrafted's plan but it has still convinced me to go that route. One has to be very careful on these pages as you never know who may be listening in.

Thanks for your thoughts Bob, good to know that the reasons I like the bench were designed into it. Interesting to note that both changes you mention are ones I was considering. I hope to be engaged in getting it together soon. I have a package due from Veritas today with one vise. Maybe I can go pick up the rest of the wood today if I can finish with my contractor buddy and an electrician early this AM. I'm getting fired up to start sawing and gluing some hardwood!

Again thanks for your thoughts Bob.

Jim,
It's Bob Lang's bench design, ....21st Century Workbench.

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

Jim,
It's Bob Lang's bench design, ....21st Century Workbench.

Doggone it! And here I thought I was going to get to slyly take credit for Bob's awesome intellectual property!! :o;)

Really though, Bob has given us all a great platform from which to work. I think each of us make minor tweaks here and there to call it our own, but when all is said and done, it was (and has been in use) the best bench design out there! Way to go Bob!

[Mike Holbrook]

Sorry to rain on your parade there Jeff. I am with you though, I have studied many a workbench plan over the last few years and as Bob explains above generally when you get right down to it simpler is better. Certainly well designed simplicity generally gives you more for less. Mark Twain is quoted as having apologized for making a long speech, explaining that on short notice he just did not have time to write a shorter one.

My front top section will be a little wider than the back and my tool trays will be a couple inches narrower. I will use the Benchcrafted Barrel Bolts I bought in place of lag screws. I think I will make my base from Hickory. Something about a German Beech top and an American Hickory base appeals to me, might have to do with all the German, German Shepherds I have. " I love it when a plan comes together"

[Peter Pedisich]

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Nice Clifton!