Honey Locust broke my tools!

[Lee Alkureishi]

Hi all,I picked up a lot of honey locust from my local arborist the other day, and today I started working on a piece. I cut out a roughly 10" by 5" bowl blank on the bandsaw, then mounted it on the lathe. It's heavy! Probably the heaviest wood I've tried to turn so far...But, I ran into a problem. Actually, several - honey locust seems also to be the hardest wood I've turned. So much so, that I managed to break 3 of my tools trying to turn it. Check out the pictures below:1. My Square carbide cutter cracked/splintered right down the middle2. The 3/8" round bar holding my circular carbide cutter bent on a catch (not pictured)3. My 1/2" bowl gouge wings got bent out of shape... Now granted, at least part of this is technique - the blank is pretty out-of-round & unbalanced. I was getting some pretty good catches which led to these problems. But that being said, I never had this kind of problem with walnut or even maple! Lee

[robert baccus]

Learn to love green wood. however "locust" woods are tough and hard as a group. might try a tool with a 3/16" cutter for a smaller bite. outa the box but i often throw such pieces of wood into water for a-while if that's an option. HD sells 5 gal buckets with lid cheaper than buying new tools.-----good luck------old forester

[Lee Alkureishi]

I'm thinking these pieces might not be as green as I thought. They'd been sitting chopped into 4foot logs in the arborist's yard for I'm not sure how long. When I turn it, I'm getting chips rather than shavings, and no water sprays... It's definitely not bone-dry, but I think it's drier than ideal for this wood... I'm not sure my sharpening and technique are good enough yet to let me tackle this!

[Sid Matheny]

With locust or hickory I usually start out shaping with my homemade oland tool with a 1/4 or 5/16" tool bit. Get it round and starting to the shape you want then go to your other tools. Just IMHO.

Sid

[Eric Gourieux]

Did you try to sharpen the square carbide tip? It looks like you did. If so, that may account for the carbide tip breakage. The other tools...I've never heard of such a thing as a bowl gouge bending out of shape. Good luck with the rest.

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Lee,
Locust is hard and you have to take very small shearing cuts with sharp tools. Looking at your blank, you chopped it from the end of the log. You didn't remove the pith or cut in deep enough to remove the end checking. That is probably the driest portion of the log because it has been exposed to the air. Throw this one out and get a fresh piece. Remove the pith because it will crack during drying anyway. Try to flatten your tail stock side better with the chain saw, start at a low speed and watch how you present the tool to the wood. Stock with light shearing cuts until you have trued the blank. Lots of us turn Honey Locust successfully, you will also. Sorry about the carbide inserts.

[Dennis Ford]

The next time you mount a blank in this orientation, try cutting from the tailstock end towards the headstock, that will allow you to cut across the side grain instead of cutting across the end grain. This will be a much easier cut. It would be a good idea to try a smaller piece first and get the technique figured out.

[Lee Alkureishi]

Interesting - I never thought to approach it from the tailstock when trying to get it round. But, it does make sense. I'll give it a go!

Thanks also for all the other suggestions. I'll give it another go with my oland tool, coming from the tailstock, with a smaller piece from a bigger/wetter log.

Eric: no, I didn't sharpen the carbide. The shiny appearance is just from the abrasive action of the locust, I guess! It's a relatively new insert, too...

Thanks again,

Lee

[Jim Underwood]

I don't think it was the locust that broke your tools...

I found in general that when you're shaping out of round or square pieces, that you can't use a wide section tool with much success. It's always better to use a smaller, rather than a larger, bowl gouge. It takes a smaller bite and is much more likely to cut rather than catch....

[Robert Henrickson]

I've been turning a dead honey locust from my brother-in-law's fencerow. It is partially spalted, and remarkably damp for having still been standing when cut. Cuts nicely. If you're getting chips, your wood must be rather dry. Definitely get rid of the pith. I've also turned dry honey locust, mostly plates from planks -- it's hard but gives nice results.

I tried using carbide tip tools for a while and now almost never use them, especially for initial rounding. I use a either a 3/8" or 1/2" bowl gouge, but then I also do a lot of basic spindle work with bowl gouges.

Working from the tailstock toward the headstock is going to make it much easier for you.

[Scott Lux]

I love honeylocust, but it is hard wood. Light cuts and sharp tools are the rule (at least for me). The wood has a warmth to it and polishes so nicely, that you don't need to put a finish on it unless you want to.

[Reed Gray]

I am with the others in that the problem comes as much from tool presentation and technique as it does from the harder wood. I prefer to start near the tailstock as well. Mostly because it is easier to get a flat spot to work outwards from rather than starting from where it is roughest and trying to gradually nibble that down to round. With harder woods, you need to go slower. Scraping cuts will work, but I can't turn Locust at speeds that I use on Madrone.

Another point others have made is the cracking. Those cracks will not turn away. I turn pieces like that into firewood, or box blanks. Just not worth the extra time.

robo hippy

[Jamie Donaldson]

Honey Locust is softer than Black Locust, and Black Locust is softer than Osage, and I have successfully turned many pieces of all these varieties. I see 2 probable causes for your difficulties here, both related to your tools and applications. The carbide cutters are very brittle and this one appears to have cracked because of the impacts on hard end grain during use, and carbide is very prone to breaking when not mounted well supported on a flat surface- is this tool homemade? The bowl gouge appears to be soft, like carbon steel or HSS that has softened due to excess sharpening heat, and the wings of this gouge are blue from excess heating. Good HSS would not roll the edge in this manner, so I believe the gouge to be at fault here.

[Lee Alkureishi]

The carbide cutters are very brittle and this one appears to have cracked because of the impacts on hard end grain during use, and carbide is very prone to breaking when not mounted well supported on a flat surface- is this tool homemade? The bowl gouge appears to be soft, like carbon steel or HSS that has softened due to excess sharpening heat, and the wings of this gouge are blue from excess heating. Good HSS would not roll the edge in this manner, so I believe the gouge to be at fault here.

Hi Jamie,

Yes, the tool is homemade. I thought it was a pretty flat mount, but I'll recheck it later tonight. I did blue the wings of the gouge when reshaping it (my initial grind attempts were way off). But, I thought that it wasn't supposed to make a difference for HSS? The gouge is Benjamin's Best, so not top quality but my understanding is it is reasonable HSS. I may not have waited for the tool to cool down before using it - maybe that contributed to the softness of the steel?

Lee

[Jamie Donaldson]

Lee- I'm more inclined to believe that the tool steel was not properly heat treated, as has sometimes happened with Brand X tools. Normal sharpening temps on a guality HSS should never render a softer edge like this illustration.

[Mike Cruz]

Lee, Locust is very hard. One of, if not the best, wood for burning (at least in a wood stove). It is very dense, and if you've ever cut locust late in the evening, you'll actually see sparks come off your chainsaw. You could cut maple all day with one chain. Locust...not so much.

As for the crack on your carbide cutter, I'm with the other guy(s) that thinks your sharpening it may have been the culprit. As for the bending of your 3/8" bar, wow, that was some catch! As for the bending over of the cutting edge of your gouge, it looks awefully dull to me. You may need to sharpen more often. If your gouge isn't cutting smoothly, it isn't sharp. You should have stopped long before your edge got bent over like that. I can imagine dry locust heating up your tool easily. And if you turn with it dull...letting it over heat, bending over like that. Now, I haven't had it happen, and haven't heard of it happening to anyone else, but could see it happening in those circumstances. Sharpen, sharpen, sharpen.

[Jerry Rhoads]

Gads Lee, sorry to here that the tools are breaking. I work a lot of Honey Locust (mostly because I love the color) and it is very hard and can beat you up wet or dry. But I have opted not to rough turn it any more on bowls. turn start to finish. Sharp tools and light cuts, it takes longer to cut than any other wood that I use. I also cut and dry billets for mills, shakers and stoppers, pens and other items. Just because I love the color. Natural edge pieces really look great.

[Dick Strauss]

Carbide inserts need a flat surface to support them and the right screw to secure them. Most inserts are made to be mounted using special screws (not flat head screws like the one pictured). You can also crack them if they are tightened too much (this is easy to do with the wrong screw).

As others have said, you should not try to take a big bite when roughing. The square cutter is the wrong tool for roughing IMO beacuse it is too big and carbide doesn't take shock loads well. You also don't want to have too much carbide overhanging the front of the tool because carbide is brittle. Once the piece is running true, then the square inserts can be used more effectively taking a small bite. Any way about it, you don't want to engage the whole front surface of the square carbide insert at once unless you want a catch.

3/8" stock can bend when you hang it over the tool rest too far even if you have a longer lever working in your favor.

I know that you are eager to try more challenging pieces (as we all were at some time). All of these tool issues are warning signs. Please try to find a mentor at a local club or Woodcraft store to help guide you on your turning journey before a serious accident ends your journey prematurely!

[Lee Alkureishi]

Carbide inserts need a flat surface to support them and the right screw to secure them. Most inserts are made to be mounted using special screws (not flat head screws like the one pictured). You can also crack them if they are tightened too much (this is easy to do with the wrong screw).

As others have said, you should not try to take a big bite when roughing. The square cutter is the wrong tool for roughing IMO beacuse it is too big and carbide doesn't take shock loads well. You also don't want to have too much carbide overhanging the front of the tool because carbide is brittle. Once the piece is running true, then the square inserts can be used more effectively taking a small bite. Any way about it, you don't want to engage the whole front surface of the square carbide insert at once unless you want a catch.

3/8" stock can bend when you hang it over the tool rest too far even if you have a longer lever working in your favor.

I know that you are eager to try more challenging pieces (as we all were at some time). All of these tool issues are warning signs. Please try to find a mentor at a local club or Woodcraft store to help guide you on your turning journey before a serious accident ends your journey prematurely!

Hi,

Thanks for the suggestions. I do intend to join my local turners club asap!

Regarding the cutters: This is the one sold by Eddie Castelin, and he recommends using this type of screw. It fits nicely and snugs up easily. Not saying it's right, but it's what he uses and recommends. I do believe the break in the square cutter is related to a slight imperfection in the seating surface of my home-made tool, and aim to fix that before mounting a new cutter. As I mentioned in a previous post, I do not sharpen the cutters. For the 3/8" round bar tool, I believe I had ground away too much of the steel while making the flat, so the actual portion that bent was around 3/16" rather than 3/8" - won't do that again!

Last night, I tried again on the honey locust. This time, I used my 1/4" oland tool and approached from the tailstock end. What a difference! I was getting streamers of wood shavings instead of huge catches (honey locust has a really weird smell, can't decide if I like it or not...). Not a single catch last night, and the wood underneath that top 1/2" was nice and wet, finally. I will have to discard the piece, though - those cracks run right through it unfortunately. Might be able to salvage some pen/stopper blanks from it though :)

The oland is going to be my tool of choice for these bowls for the moment, at least until I figure out the bowl gouge situation (or maybe buy a gouge with better HSS). For my own education, though: I thought the square carbide cutters were marketed as "roughers" by a certain company, and some of their promotional materials shows them being used on bowls?

Thanks again,

Lee

[CW McClellan]

Pg. 123 of Woodturning causes OPERATOR ERROR

[Lee Alkureishi]

Pg. 123 of Woodturning causes OPERATOR ERROR

um, not sure what that means.

Lee

[Dick Strauss]

Lee,
I'm glad you are having some success now so that you don't become discouraged. As others have noted, a tool with a smaller bite like the oland is easier to control and safer. Cutting with the grain or downhill is best as you've discovered.

I always worry about beginners hurting themselves while they are learning. I'm sorry if I came across as being too preachy!

[steven carter]

With locust or hickory I usually start out shaping with my homemade oland tool with a 1/4 or 5/16" tool bit. Get it round and starting to the shape you want then go to your other tools. Just IMHO.

Sid

+1 on that. Use the smaller cutter on harder more out of round.

[Lee Alkureishi]

I always worry about beginners hurting themselves while they are learning. I'm sorry if I came across as being too preachy!

Not at all Dick, I'm glad for the advice!

Can anyone tell me what post #22 means?

Thanks!

[Ryan Baker]

I have, and have turned, quite a pile of honey locust, and it certianly is one of the hardest woods out there. I generally use an oland tool and the square carbide tool for rough shaping, working from the side as mentioned. It's slow, but you can get there.

On your square tool, the carbide is sticking out too far over the edges of the steel bar. Carbide needs support very close to the edge. It also looks like there may be a slight gap on the left side, but it is hard to tell from the pictures.

You don't show the 3/8 bar, but I would never use a 3/8" bar on a job like this. A bar that size will bend VERY easily, especially if it is hanging over the rest much at all. You should be using a bar more like 3/4" for a job like this.

Keep the tool rest as close to the work as possible, and stay close to the center post to provide the most solid support for the cutter. With an oland-type tool, you can often do better with a smaller cutter ... e.g. try 3/16" instead of 1/4-3/8". It is taking a smaller cut, so it doesn't grab as hard. Other than that, sharpen often and take your time.