German quality...

[Paul Di Biasio]

I had some free time today, while visiting my parents and I spent a hour or so at the Martin showroom in Charlotte, NC. I was particularly interested in the Aigner safety equipment and the pinnacle of German woodworking equipment, Martin. I did ask him specifically about Felder, and he said that for the smaller shop, it was the best you could buy and that many of his customers are upgrading from Felder equipment to Martin. According to him, Martin was built to run continuously for up to 8 hours a day. I was very impressed with the shapers as well. The most expensive shaper is over $50k.

Although expensive, the Aigner safety equipment was well engineered and manufactured flawlessly.

One interesting note; the sliding table guideways on the T-73 saw were identical to my Minimax CU410; steel balls in a V channel guideway. A neat feature of the T-73 was an oil well on the end of the slider that cleaned and oiled the guideways during use and an automatic pumping system that lubricated all the internals. A truely fine machine.

I am still very happy with my Minimax CU410 but that doesn't prevent me from appreciating the quality of the Martin (or Felder) machinery. Envy? Yeah a little of that too...

[Richard Wolf]

Paul, I know you have some minimax machines as well as I do, I also picked up the Felder catolog recently. While I do, and alot of other people appreciate fine equipment, I have begun to question myself lately as to how on earth do people justify spending money on some of these machines that have eclipsed the logic of a means to an end.
I am not trying to be judgemental about how anybody spends their money,please don't take it that why at all, but have some of us lost sight of reality??
Anybody that has a comment, please answer, this was not just directed to Paul, he just started me off.

Richard

[Paul Di Biasio]

Richard,

I know its hard to justify the cost of some of these machines but the key component for a cabinet shop is downtime. To avoid it, they need reliabilty and with the cost of labor, a machine like an Altendorf or Martin, it will pay for itself fairly quickly in a production environment. For you and I, its crazy. For them it's a necessity.

Could you mow a five acre lawn with a push mower? Yeah sure, but would you want to? Would you be able to run a profitable landscaping business with a 24" walk behind Honda?

I appreciate the quality of the German machinery. With the Minimax, I appreciate the quality they achieve with such a simple (at times bare bone) design.

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi Richard

I wonder about it sometimes myself, but then there are people sitting out in the middle of lakes drinking beer in $30,000 bass boats, shooting at clay birds with $5000 shotguns, taking blurry pictures with $10,000 cameras, etc, etc, etc. I do this stuff for a living, and my shop is in an old building that needs lots of work. Some of the nicest shops I have been in are the ones that are owned by people doing this for fun. People want this stuff because it is available, and as Tim Taylor once said, "There is no such thing as a tool I don't need." ;)

Bill

[Paul Di Biasio]

Bill,

Sorry to hear that the job for the T-124 didn't turn out for you. Have you sold it yet?

Should I be able to set up a vacuum chuck with the T124? I was looking forward to your insight on the T-124 and any mods.

[Rob Russell]

Why do folks spend $30K on a bass boat when a $10K boat would do a lot of the same things? That's for something that generally won't even produce something permanent like woodworking will. I'm not knocking fishing (I've got a couple poles too), but for most folks who fish, it's truly a pastime not a profession.
Why do folks spend $50-$60K on a car when a $30K car will do the same thing?

Part of the answer (if you're looking specifically at the Felder) are features. If you're looking more generally at european "format style" slider saws, it's partly safety and partly performance.

[lou sansone]

Gee I am glad someone finally got around to discussing martin equipment.

I was in a commerical shop that was all martin stuff. My understanding is for high volume production you need equipment that is programable and super accurate. The martin stuff is all of that and more. The owner told me that he needed equipment like the martin equipment to be able to compete with the other big high volume shops.

BTW I do not own any, I would be open to buying it if I could find it on the secondary market, but to date I have not been able.

interesting post... lets see what others have to say.

[Bart Leetch]

Why do folks spend $50-$60K on a car when a $30K car will do the same thing?

If we got back to basics on cars & trucks they would probably cost closer to 10,000 to 15,000 instead of 25,000 to 30,000 new. Get rid of all the frills & the vehicle will still do the most important thing which is to get us & our belongings from point a to point b. With the cost of fuel going up we don't really need so many creature comforts anyway, we won't be able to afford to drive long distances so all the comforts won't be necessary.

JMPO

[Martin Shupe]

I never seen a Martin tool, but if it is better than Felder, it must be fantastic.

If any of you go to Kelly Mehler's new woodworking school, most of his tools are Felder. They are very easy and safe to work on, and the quality and attention to detail makes them worth the price in my opinion.

Of course, I am working on lowly Jet and Delta, but if I ever win the lotto, I'll be upgrading my shop immediately.

[Rob Russell]

Why do folks spend $50-$60K on a car when a $30K car will do the same thing?


Well, to answer my own question - creature comforts. I drive an American luxury car (Lincoln) that I bought used for 40% off of its original sticker, 1 year old with 9K miles on it. I will admit to being spoiled having driven it for the last 12+ years. Would I have bought it new? Nope - couldn't afford it. Whenever it does become time to buy a new car, what will I look for? Dunno, but having been spoiled wouldn't make it easy to go back to something like a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord.

[Ian Barley]

...I have begun to question myself lately as to how on earth do people justify spending money on some of these machines that have eclipsed the logic of a means to an end.
I am not trying to be judgemental about how anybody spends their money,please don't take it that why at all, but have some of us lost sight of reality??
Richard

Richard - As someone who makes a living at this, any money that gives me a tool which is more reliable OR more accurate OR safer OR more prdouctive is money well spent. Some days a machine will run for 10 - 12 hours continuously in my shop. The ones that are built to do that do so because their normal workloads don't come near 50% of their actual capabilities. If the machine that I need is not available to run all day that could easily cost me a thousand dollars a day in lost production (depending on season). In this situation it is not difficult to justify spending a bit more to get the right capabilities.

Like Bill says, some of the prettiest shops are those of enthusiasts. They may be investing in this type of machinery for many reasons. For some it will be because they seek great accuracy to enable them to complete products with great precision. For others it will be the collectors impulse just to own and yet others will do it for the joy of using tools created by masterful engineers. Whichever it is they are welcome to the enjoyment that they get.

It is interesting to turn the question round a little and wonder why some folks spend significant money and time (basically both the same thing) restoring old tools. When I look at a 1920's tablesaw all I see is a boat anchor which will be massively dangerous and difficult to operate if anybody plugs it in to the mains. But most people will find some quality in it to appreciate and many would feel quite justified in owning it just for the sake of owning it.

We all make our choices based on our needs and wants and long may it remain so - making the world go round.

[lou sansone]

Richard - As someone who makes a living at this, any money that gives me a tool which is more reliable OR more accurate OR safer OR more prdouctive is money well spent. Some days a machine will run for 10 - 12 hours continuously in my shop. The ones that are built to do that do so because their normal workloads don't come near 50% of their actual capabilities. If the machine that I need is not available to run all day that could easily cost me a thousand dollars a day in lost production (depending on season). In this situation it is not difficult to justify spending a bit more to get the right capabilities.

Like Bill says, some of the prettiest shops are those of enthusiasts. They may be investing in this type of machinery for many reasons. For some it will be because they seek great accuracy to enable them to complete products with great precision. For others it will be the collectors impulse just to own and yet others will do it for the joy of using tools created by masterful engineers. Whichever it is they are welcome to the enjoyment that they get.

It is interesting to turn the question round a little and wonder why some folks spend significant money and time (basically both the same thing) restoring old tools. When I look at a 1920's tablesaw all I see is a boat anchor which will be massively dangerous and difficult to operate if anybody plugs it in to the mains. But most people will find some quality in it to appreciate and many would feel quite justified in owning it just for the sake of owning it.

We all make our choices based on our needs and wants and long may it remain so - making the world go round.

I think that ian made the point I was trying to make much better than I could. I have a lot of old iron, but if you get too old it does become a little creekey. Machines from the 40s onward that have all ball bearing construction can run all day - take band saws for example . The tannewitz , northfield and moak are the main stay of the industry and that design was pretty well fixed in the 50's. How about the straight line rip saw? that design was also pretty well fixed in the 50's.
I think it is in the area of panel processing that machines like that martin really show their strength. I have seen pretty clean production shops as well, but hobby shops like mine are too clean if you were really having to make a living.

[John Renzetti]

Hi Paul, Who did you talk to at Martin. Both Stefan and Anton are good people. Stefan, the president of Martin USA is a German master cabinetmaker. Real good guy.
I think the Martin machinery is at the apex of what would be called the classic woodworking machinery.
I know four of those guys that bought the Martin equipment to upgrade some of their Felder machines. Three of them are pros, but the other is a doctor friend, who just always wanted the Martin jointer and Martin planer. I say, good for him.
While the cost of the Martin machines are beyond the budgets of most of us here, the Aigner accessories do provide real safety features at a much lower cost. A lot of them would be able to fit on a lot of different machines.
As far as the cost of machinery and quality and cost, I agree with those who brought up the cost of a bass boat. I've used that analogy a lot. I've seen the parking lot at work with a number of new $30k trucks and these aren't brain surgeons that buy them.
I guess I'm fortunate that I have some decent machines in the shop like the ones Chris is getting. (I'm a bad influence). Instead of upgrading my '90 GMC 4x4 with 200k miles, I got nice woodworking machinery, which for me gives me a lot more enjoyment.
take care,
John

[Paul Di Biasio]

Hey John,

I chatted with both but Anton spent most of the time with me. Real nice guys.
Maybe next trip I will buy a couple of the extension tables.

When do you think US or Canadian companies will start to manufacture descent sliders? I know Powermatic made one years ago.

Here is one on woodweb. What a steal. G.E made saws?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Paul....Interesting thread you started. I'm of the belief that each of us do things for different reasons. As a hobbiest, I'm driven by a couple of motives. Cost and practicality or reasonable. I bought my wife a new Honda Accord 2 years ago. We needed a new vehicle and it was the best quality we could afford. Could we have made payments on a new BMW? Yes. Would that have been practical or reasonable? Probably not. First it would have "strapped" our monthly budget (which would mean I wouldn't be building or finishing my new shop), second, I've been told it takes special mechanical knowledge and experience to maintain them and neither I nor a lot of local mechanics have that kind of experience. I'll probably upgrade most of the woodworking tools I have once my new shop is finished but it won't be Martin going into it. For me it's not financially practical or reasonable. I have no problem with those who make a living using their machinery or those who can afford buying "top shelf" woodworking machinery. The people I worry about are those who try to have a champagne appetite with a one beer income! Great thread Paul!

[Richard Wolf]

Just to add to the analogy, I can understand that it's is alot more fun to fish from a $50,000 boat than it is from a dingy with a 3hp outboard, but if you buy a 5 million dollar commerical trawler to go flounder fishing 5 times a year, you have crossed the line of sane reasoning.

Richard

[Bill Grumbine]

Bill,

Sorry to hear that the job for the T-124 didn't turn out for you. Have you sold it yet?

Should I be able to set up a vacuum chuck with the T124? I was looking forward to your insight on the T-124 and any mods.

Hi Paul

It was a bit of a disappointment, but upon talking with a friend of mine, it could have been lots worse with this guy. I have had some interest in it so far, but no sale yet. Do you need another? :D At least I am not in the position of that other guy who thought he was buying a bowl lathe, eh?

You should have no problems with setting up a vacuum, and of course, I would recommend a VacuuMaster, not because I sell them, but because you won't have stuff hanging out the back end where the cover is. I have the same pop out plug on mine, but the conventional vacuum chucks would make a mess of the cover I think.

If the lathe does not sell, I will concentrate on finding some work for it, but I would really rather have the room right now, especially with a MM 20 arriving in a few weeks!

Bill

[John Renzetti]

Hey John,

I chatted with both but Anton spent most of the time with me. Real nice guys.
Maybe next trip I will buy a couple of the extension tables.

When do you think US or Canadian companies will start to manufacture descent sliders? I know Powermatic made one years ago.

Here is one on woodweb. What a steal. G.E made saws?

hi Paul, I just looked at that saw on Woodweb. If that thing is running then $250 is a steal. The seller says G.E. but that is a Euroslider. It looks to be all cast iron, probably weighs about 1500lbs or more.
I think the US manufacturers missed the boat as far as sliders are concerned. Robland is making one for Powermatic. The US manufacturers are doing well in the CNC stuff especially routers.
If you are looking at anything specific in the Aigner line let me know, I might have it and can tell you if it will fit your machine and how well it works.
Are you going to the Mid Atlantic show in April.
take care,
John

[Greg Hairston]

PAUL,
Do the extention tables seem to be easy to fit to the minimax gear. I was looking at trying to adapt the Felder extention tables but hear the Aigner is a better system.

Greg

[Paul Di Biasio]

Greg,
All you have to do is install their rails. My plan would be to install them on the back side of my CU410 behind the shaper and 3 sides of my bandsaw. My only problem is I would like an extension on the infeed side of the saw but the rip fence rail is in the way.

Ideally I would get two and the coupler. I rip and shape a fair amount of moulding and having a 10ft outfeed table would do the trick.

John,

I have never been to the Ft. Wash show but this year I have travel hockey tryouts for two of my boys that weekend. :(

[Kevin Herber]

This is an interesting thread. I have been watching as the $$$s grow on shop setup. When I started lurking a few years ago on this site and others (Pond) the general level of equipment was PC, DeWalt, Jet, Delta etc. Recall that the economy was in a pretty bad decline at the same time (Enron?).

Now, things are improving economically. The type and cost of equipment receiving interest and debate rises too.

A few years ago I rarely heard of Festool. Now it is common. Until this thread I had never heard of Martin equipment.

I can justify a purchase as well as anyone and have on occasion come up with some pretty creative stuff, just ask SWMBO.

Having said that, I think the real reason hobbyists have super expensive equipment is purely because they want it and they can afford it.

What a great country!!! :)

-- Kevin

[John Renzetti]

PAUL,
Do the extention tables seem to be easy to fit to the minimax gear. I was looking at trying to adapt the Felder extention tables but hear the Aigner is a better system.

Greg

Hello Commander Greg, I guess it's my duty as a Warrant Officer to keep you Navy guys straight. :)
There are two types of Aigner extensions. One has a simple rail that you attach to the cast iron end ofwhatever machine you like. I have them on my bandsaw. To this you can attach an extension table with an adjustable leg. Works fine and you're looking at about a $300-400 cost.
There are other Aigner extensions that come in various lengths and widths. These are real heavy depending on the size. From the looks of the attachment rail you need to be real precise in drilling. These are expensive and may not work on your machine.
The Felder extensions are either cast iron or aluminum. These just hand on the end of a cast table. All you attach is the F channel adapter. These would work well on your equipment if you didn't want a long table with a leg. If you do then the Aigner version is lighter in weight and you can use it for other things. I use mine with a circle and arc cutting jig on the bandsaw.
Go the the martin-usa website and you can see the whole Aigner product line plus prices and the uses for each accessory.
take care,
John

[Richard Wolf]

:D At least I am not in the position of that other guy who thought he was buying a bowl lathe, eh?

Hi Bill, I assume you are talking about the guy on the MM group who purchased a T124 copy lathe($4,000) and now finds out thats not what he wanted. It goes with this tread about spending money on tools that far exceed the needs of the user. He's now using the lathe to turn pens! I wish I needed another T124, I could buy yours and his. Its really a great lathe for spindle work, sorry you don't have a need for it. Like Paul said, I'd like to see how you could improve on it.

Richard

[Jim Becker]

Do the extention tables seem to be easy to fit to the minimax gear. I was looking at trying to adapt the Felder extention tables but hear the Aigner is a better system.

I looked at the Aigner stuff in Steve Jenkin's shop and immediately wanted it for my own, particularly the extension tables. I see a broad range of uses for these things in my shop, including infeed-outfeed extensions for both my MM FS 350 J/P, my MM16 bandsaw and even my table saw when working with oversized stock. Another use would be for a big circle cutting jig for the BS. Two of the tables and a bunch of the support rails is all I would need...just move the tables around as needed. VERY high quality stuff.