Why I Buy Over the Internet

[Brian Kent]

I need a drill chuck with a #2 Morse Taper.

Step #1 - Go to Home Depot. "Yes, the Drill Chucks are over there." "Do you have one with a #2 Morse Taper?" "Sorry, no".

Step #2 - Stop in at Harbor Freight. "Do you sell Drill Chucks." "Just the 4-way." I had never heard of a 4-way chuck before, but he sells the tools and I am just a learner / buyer. "Actually, that was a 4-way drill chuck key. What I need is a chuck for a drill press, with a #2 Morse Taper, like most of your drill presses use." "Nope, don't have that. Try Tool Mart."

Step #3 - Go to Tool Mart. Front Door says "Entrance. Use Entrance on other side of building." The Door on the other side of the building says "Use Entrance on other side of building." I went in the first one. "I need a Jacobs Drill Chuck with a #2 Morse Taper." "We don't sell those, but the repair department can get you one." "Hi, do you sell Drill Chucks with a #2 Morse Taper?" "What brand?" "I don't care. A #2 Morse Taper is a universal standard. All of the drill presses you sell have a #2 or #3 Morse Taper." (I just decided never to bring in a tool for repair if I know more than they do. They are supposed to know more than me. A whole lot more.) "Well we need a part number. If you bring in a part number and the name of the manufacturer we can order one for you."

Step #4 - I see one on Rockler's website. I can get one for just $52.24 if I drive 20 miles. I call first. The Morse Taper is not in stock.

Step #5 - Go to Lee Valley website during coffee break. They have one for $31.50, delivered for free to my door (if I spend another $8.50 at Lee Valley, which I am quite willing to do.) I know that they will get the order right, deliver a product that works, and if anything goes wrong the nicest people in the world will comfort me and make it right.

I gave 4 local brick and mortar stores a fair shot and was willing to pay more for the convenience of driving to them and teaching them about the machines they sell. That's why I buy over the internet.

Brian

[Chuck Wintle]

I need a drill chuck with a #2 Morse Taper.

Step #1 - Go to Home Depot. "Yes, the Drill Chucks are over there." "Do you have one with a #2 Morse Taper?" "Sorry, no".

Step #2 - Stop in at Harbor Freight. "Do you sell Drill Chucks." "Just the 4-way." I had never heard of a 4-way chuck before, but he sells the tools and I am just a learner / buyer. "Actually, that was a 4-way drill chuck key. What I need is a chuck for a drill press, with a #2 Morse Taper, like most of your drill presses use." "Nope, don't have that. Try Tool Mart."

Step #3 - Go to Tool Mart. Front Door says "Entrance. Use Entrance on other side of building." The Door on the other side of the building says "Use Entrance on other side of building." I went in the first one. "I need a Jacobs Drill Chuck with a #2 Morse Taper." "We don't sell those, but the repair department can get you one." "Hi, do sell Drill Chucks with a #2 Morse Taper?" "What brand?" "I don't care. A #2 Morse Taper is a universal standard. All of the drill presses you sell have a #2 or #3 Morse Taper." (I just decided never to bring in a tool for repair if I know more than they do. They are supposed to know more than me. A whole lot more.) "Well we need a part number. If you bring in a part number and the name of the manufacturer we can order one for you."

Step #4 - I see one on Rockler's website. I can get one for just $52.24 if I drive 20 miles. I call first. The Morse Taper is not in stock.

Step #5 - Go to Lee Valley website during coffee break. They have one for $31.50, delivered for free to my door (if I spend another $8.50 at Lee Valley, which I am quite willing to do.) I know that they will get the order right, deliver a product that works, and if anything goes wrong the nicest people in the world will comfort me and make it right.

I gave 4 local brick and mortar stores a fair shot and was willing to pay more for the convenience of driving to them and teaching them about the machines they sell. That's why I buy over the internet.

Brian
that sums up how i view things also..most if not all can be bought online so the brick and mortar stores slowly fade away. Tools, car parts, computers and computer supplies etc.

[Victor Robinson]

Yup. Couldn't agree more.

[Russ Ambrose]

i completely agree with your sentiments, but there ARE some brick and mortar places that are knowledgeable and provide great customer service, just like there are internet outfits that are great until you have a problem, question, or need to return something. just sayin'

[Brian Kent]

i completely agree with your sentiments, but there ARE some brick and mortar places that are knowledgeable and provide great customer service, just like there are internet outfits that are great until you have a problem, question, or need to return something. just sayin'

Fair enough. I love to go to Craftsman Studio in Spring Valley, CA (as well as shopping on line with them) and Reel Lumber in Riverside, CA, just to name a couple of local gems.

Another interesting development is that the internet brings us closer to great tool makers. Doug Thompson at Thompson Tools, Ron Brese at Brese Plane, Trent Bosch at Trent Bosch Studios (to name a few) feel like good friends with their personal service.

[Rod Sheridan]

LOL Brian, when you said you were going to stores I thought you meant real ones like an industrial supplier, not the Wal Marts of the home destruction type.

Glad to see you're supporting a good Canadian company though..............Rod.

[Bill Trouard]

I agree 100%, I have tried over and over, Even my local hardwood supplier. its suppose to be a professional cabinet makers supply house. When I was last there I was buying some cabinet grade poplar core plywood. I asked if they could get Baltic Birch and his response was "I've never heard of it, but this is the best you cay buy and we sell a lot of it". They guy was also insisting that it was B1 grade. when it was delivered it was the same HD/lowes C3 Purebond.
Even local auto parts dealers and audio video stores are just as bad if not worse. It seems none of the B&M shops are willing to pay a fair wage that would attract a professional that knows what he is talking about.

I was in best-buy last week and a kid that worked there was trying to sell me a new no name TV and at the same time trying to sell me a $200 HDMI cable to connect it. I was not even shoping for a TV. I went in to grab a Apple gift card. I found it hard not to break out laughing. He knew nothing about anything he was talking about. I have been a Audiophile for 30 years. Anyone that knows hi-end speakers might recognize my avatar logo.

If these B&M business would just stop trying to squeeze the bottom line to death, too many are forcing potential customers to shop online. due to poor customer service, poor exchange policies and just not having the items they advertise in stock.

[David Kumm]

i've also fallen into the big box trap. Used to go to HD for electrical and found I could go to the industrial park and stop in an electric place and although the price was a little higher on some stuff the quality was always better and often the price was too. The box stores tend to really upcharge the electrical fittings and such. Dave

[glenn bradley]

I appreciate your diligence. I am fortunate (or unfortunate depending on your lifestyle) to live near BORGs, Rockler, etc. I do as you do and try to give the local B&M my business whenever I can. Yes, I even patronize the local BORG if I can; their employees live in my area and have kids that go to the schools my taxes pay for, etc. All to often my experience is like yours and I go online but, I try to spend my money locally.

[Chris Tsutsui]

Your average B&M employee probably isn't trained about drill press chucks. :)

You can't go wrong with that Taiwan chuck and arbor as I have one and used one not too long ago on my wood lathe.

However if you can find a good deal on a used chuck at a garage sale or craigslist/ebay such as an albrecht keyless chuck, you can then buy an arbor adapter from McMastercarr and get it to fit your drill press that has the MT#2. Just make sure the chuck you buy does not have an integrated arbor because then you need to make sure that built-in arbor is an MT#2. :)

I am absolutely loving the albrecht chucks though they might be overkill.

Mcmastercarr sells about 200 chucks and adapters so you can definitely find what you're looking for as far as information, however their prices are on the high side. They're in santa fe springs california so you should get stuff from them next day. I save on shipping and just drive to their "will call" area as it's literally 0.7 miles away from my office.

BTW, if your replacing a bad chuck, you can typically remove the old arbor adapter from the bad chuck and only replace the chuck. Sometimes its difficult to remove the arbor but there are tips from machinests I've found on the web and used with success.

[Jeff Duncan]

Buying online is fine, I buy a lot of stuff for my business...some online and some B&M. However please don't refer to the bottom of the barrel junk selling box stores as if they would actually have something useful. I would have never even bothered making the trip to any of the places you mentioned as even if any of them had a drill chuck, chances are high it would be an overpriced lower quality unit. For a drill chuck I'd find my local tool repair joint....you know, the old guy who's been fixing tools in his dingy little, poorly lit, wrong part of town shop for the last 30 years. Unfortunately there's less and less of those guys around b/c of the box stores so we have to resort to the net more and more often.

Here's just one reason why I like B&M's .........years ago when I first moved into my current shop I needed to fix some of the old plumbing. I took an old leaky shut off valve down to the local old fashioned hardware store to buy a replacement so I could get the bathroom up and running again. I don't remember exactly the problem, but it was more involved than a simple washer. The old guy asks me what the problem is and I tell him, and he proceeds to explain that he 'could' sell me a new valve, but if I wanted he could fix it for much less money and it would work fine. So he goes about fixing the valve for me, which took maybe about 5 or 10 minutes of his time, replaces a couple parts that he had right there on hand, and then when he's done I ask how much? I don't remember exactly what it was....but it was much less than $1!!! I gave him a five for his time and thanked him and have been buying stuff from there ever since. Try getting that kind of service online or at a box store;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Rob Sack]

With the big box stores, they try and cover a lot of bases, from lumber to lawn mowers. My latest trip, and final trip to Rockler, which is supposed to cater to the woodworker, was to buy a Delta T2 fence for a table saw was I was refurbishing. Now Rockler is a Delta dealer. I asked if the fence was in stock. No. Can you order one? Manager: "I think it has been discontinued." Could you check, since I just spoke with the technical department at Delta to get the specs. Manager: "Well, the rep told me 3 months ago it was discontinued." Will you please check. "Oh, all right." He checks and says he can order me one, but he won't let me use my usual professional discount and I would have to pay an enormous amount in shipping. Translation: If we don't have it on the shelf, go pound sand. I go back to my shop, hop on the computer, and find one, at slightly less than the Rockler price with the professional discount. Now through the internet, I find it at a retail store for less than a discounted Rockler price and have it in my shop 2 days later. I realize that saving money on the internet results from the many internet dealers that have no retail overhead. All the more reason that specialty houses like Rockler would want to try and keep their long time customers happy and wanting to come back. As a side note, SawStop is fair traded. The prices are the same where ever you buy them. Guess where I did NOT buy my SawStop?

[Jerry Thompson]

I live in an area with over a million in population. It is a 35 mile drive through city traffic to get to Woodcraft. I go there often to support them but with gas, yada, yada, the folks on the Internet will be getting more of my business.

[Paul McGaha]

Hi Brian,

I understand the problem. It was good of you to try to get the sale to your local stores. But they are not as well stocked as an internet store.

About the only local woodworking store we have around here is a couple of Woodcrafts. One of them is maybe 10 miles from me and the other one is 30 to 40 miles away. I hope we never lose those stores because it is really helpful to see all the tools and everything up close.

PHM

[Brian Kent]

Mcmastercarr sells about 200 chucks and adapters so you can definitely find what you're looking for as far as information, however their prices are on the high side. They're in santa fe springs california so you should get stuff from them next day. I save on shipping and just drive to their "will call" area as it's literally 0.7 miles away from my office.


That's great to know about Mcmastercarr. I can actually support a local place! Well, a couple of hours away, but still in So Cal.

[Damon Stathatos]

Not many brick and mortars cater to or focus on professionals. If you're on this forum, you're most likely past their target audience. It's now just as well with them that you (us) rely on the internet for what we need. They fill the need for a different segment (a large segment) of people who are very unsure of what they want and need direction. There are a number of ways to achieve an end and they will suggest to you the path they can, based upon what they have to offer at that time. They fill this need pretty well.

About a dozen years ago, I wandered into our local Rockler, on a lark. Up to that point in my life, I had had only intermittent woodworking experiences but always loved the idea of the 'field' in general. Junior High Shop Class had been a very fond memory. Over the next five or so years, I spent a lot of time in that Rockler. Built a garage shop and started making all sorts of 'stuff.' They were always there to answer my plebeian questions and to lead me along my path. I continued but after a while, I outgrew them, began needing (wanting) specific things which were harder and harder to reliably find there, for whatever reason. Their advice was no longer needed or very helpful because I had continued the passion to a level beyond their target audience. I still patronize them as much as possible because without them, I doubt that I would have been able to be where I am today.

Fast forward to today and due to a career change (read: family business), I now import exotic hardwoods from Central and South America and (single handedly) operate 12k square foot shop filled with old iron purchased from IRS auctions and hardwoods like Cocobolo and Ziricote. I cater to local custom furniture makers looking for something they can't find through the normal channels. It's a tough-go catering to such a specific (and SMALL) market and I fully understand why a chain would never make it doing so, however, it is because of their inability to do so that I have created a very small niche for myself.

I thank Rockler for my early years and regrettably have limited use for them anymore, even though I try whenever I can. I actually supply my hardwoods to our local Rockler and often think to myself of their significance in that fact. They're the ones enabling the 'next generation' to figure out if they want to continue their path or not. I'm guessing that next generation of woodworkers would be a much smaller one without brick and mortars such as Rockler and Woodcraft. So that's the way I see the function that they serve.

[Steven Hsieh]

There are some items that are cheaper just to buy it at the store. Than paying shipping and wait for a week for it.

My local Woodcraft carry tools like Veritas, Lie neilson tools, and other franchise don't carry in their stores.

If my local area doesn't have what I want ill just buy it online.

[Brian Kent]

Damon, excellent post, and I agree with you. I have especially found help from the Ontario Rockler's manager and staff. Your explanation is also my experience, where I went from Ryobi at Home Depot to Rockler to hand tools that were beyond Rockler's market. Good job.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

Thanks Brian. This thread made me realize how fortunate I am. When I saw this earlier I decided to call my local hardware store. They seem to always have what I need, it's only 8 miles from home and give a 10% discount for cash in a deal worked out by the local electrical utility. Mike says they have 2--one is from China and one made in either the USA or Canada, he would check if I wanted him to. I asked about the prices--$31 and $73. I'll let you guess which one is the cheap one. He checked and only had the cheaper one in stock. His suggestions: a. buy the cheaper one b. drive another 19 miles to their other store, they have them both in stock c. tell him I want the pricey one and he will have it in his store by 9:00 tomorrow morning. I told him about your post and why I called. He laughed and said something like I'll get your money next time. Reminds me of the old William Herschell poem, Ain't God Good to Indiana.

[Van Huskey]

To me a store be it B&M or internet must provide one of two things or a balance of both. Price or value added service. All to often B&M stores offer neither and from the woodworking perspective not being a pro I really never HAVE to have anything today. I am lucky to have a real industrial woodworking supply house near me (OK its a 35 minutre drive but our home in Louisiana is 20 minutes from a Walmart so it isn't a big deal). From the second you walk it you see it is industrail, they have probably 100 machines on display everything from 6" jointers to big wide belts. They have EVERY Whiteside bit and every freeborn cutter head. BUT, they are very attentive to my needs. My first visit I made it clear I was a hobby guy and when I ask about the diameter of the impeller on a particular dust collector the guy diappeared and not only came back with the dimension but came back with the IMPELLER in his hands... Oh, I forgot to mention they stock parts too... These guys know machines and though I don't always agree with their position I always respect it. They aren't cheap (full retail unless their is a national sale or they buy a big lot of something) and they don't fill their end caps with the latest price dumped item from China but they make me feel at home and don't make me feel like it is trouble to take my money, since it is clear most of their sales are "on account" and they aren't set up to do a lot of counter sales.

My bet is if I needed a chuck they would have multiple options in stock from Albrecht through Jacobs and down to a Taiwanese knock off and they darn well will know what a Morse Taper is...

[fRED mCnEILL]

I buy a LOT from Lee Valley which not only has B&M stores but also does mail order. I have two stores available to me and from the people in the stores when I go in there sure seeem busy. I don't know how well employees are paid but the service is better that best. I don't even know how their prices compare because I never check around for stuff they carry.
For stuff I can buy locally I usually buy there as I tend to be impatient but if I even get a HINT of an attitude I don't hesitate for a minute to order it on-line. I AM THE CUSTOMER with money and its the retailers JOB to get that money from me. If they can't be bothered to cater to me I will go elsewhere in a "new york minute". I once had a shippier for an appliance company try and explain to me why they couldn't deliver as promised. He started to say that "what I had to understand was" when I cut him off and told him what he had to understand was that I was the customer and without me he wouldn't have a job.

[Dan Rude]

I recently had to get a flooring staple gun repaired. I borrowed it from a friend to do my brothers kitchen floor. Found the kits on line for $40 and would have to do it myself. I then called my favorite Hardware store for tools, 7 corners in St Paul, MN we might get it done in 2 weeks repair + $35 shop charge, I needed it in a week, find Hank's professional flooring place up in New Brighton Mn, drop it off and the repair guy says 2 days. Call mid week, repair guy out with sick kid, check back later. No problem I know, have had the same problem. Give him a call on Friday, yep I have it fixed. Show up, pay at front desk $13. Gun worked perfect. Even though I buy alot on the internet and Lee Valley is one of the best. There are some places B&M that treat you well.:)

[Randy Dutkiewicz]

I need a drill chuck with a #2 Morse Taper.

Step #1 - Go to Home Depot. "Yes, the Drill Chucks are over there." "Do you have one with a #2 Morse Taper?" "Sorry, no".

Step #2 - Stop in at Harbor Freight. "Do you sell Drill Chucks." "Just the 4-way." I had never heard of a 4-way chuck before, but he sells the tools and I am just a learner / buyer. "Actually, that was a 4-way drill chuck key. What I need is a chuck for a drill press, with a #2 Morse Taper, like most of your drill presses use." "Nope, don't have that. Try Tool Mart."

Step #3 - Go to Tool Mart. Front Door says "Entrance. Use Entrance on other side of building." The Door on the other side of the building says "Use Entrance on other side of building." I went in the first one. "I need a Jacobs Drill Chuck with a #2 Morse Taper." "We don't sell those, but the repair department can get you one." "Hi, do you sell Drill Chucks with a #2 Morse Taper?" "What brand?" "I don't care. A #2 Morse Taper is a universal standard. All of the drill presses you sell have a #2 or #3 Morse Taper." (I just decided never to bring in a tool for repair if I know more than they do. They are supposed to know more than me. A whole lot more.) "Well we need a part number. If you bring in a part number and the name of the manufacturer we can order one for you."

Step #4 - I see one on Rockler's website. I can get one for just $52.24 if I drive 20 miles. I call first. The Morse Taper is not in stock.

Step #5 - Go to Lee Valley website during coffee break. They have one for $31.50, delivered for free to my door (if I spend another $8.50 at Lee Valley, which I am quite willing to do.) I know that they will get the order right, deliver a product that works, and if anything goes wrong the nicest people in the world will comfort me and make it right.

I gave 4 local brick and mortar stores a fair shot and was willing to pay more for the convenience of driving to them and teaching them about the machines they sell. That's why I buy over the internet.

Brian

In one word - AMEN!

[Harry Hagan]

Try getting that kind of service online or at a box store.

I had a hardware store down the street just like that—until Home Depot happened. The store eventually relocated in another town about a thirty-minute drive from the old location and I continued to patronize them when necessity required or time permitted.

One day the owner commented, “You sure are a loyal customer.” as if he didn’t have any from the old location. Yep, I said. If I’m a loyal customer, I usually have a go-to-guy and that guy standing next to you is my hardware guy.

Much to my hardware guy’s embarrassment, I told the owner in great detail a few of the many times his employee had gone out of his way to help me if he could, or steer me in the right direction when he couldn’t. On more than one occasion he even took my stuff home to alter or make repairs when I didn’t have the proper tools. I made sure the owner understood his employee was the reason I drove an hour to get hardware or advice, not him.

I discovered the store had changed ownership on a recent visit. Requests for Boiled Linseed Oil and Turpentine were met with blank stares. Questions about lawn equipment and plumbing supplies left them speechless. I won’t be going back.

I miss my hardware guy. I wonder what he’s doing now?

[Myk Rian]

We have one hardware here that has been around since the town was built, or pretty close to it.
I'll need a metric drill bit. They have them. In a set, or one at a time.
I'll need some drive screws. They have them.
Drill chucks? Yep.
#2 MT? Yep.
You name it, this creaky wooden floor hardware store has it.

[Ruhi Arslan]

...I was in best-buy last week and a kid that worked there was trying to sell me a new no name TV and at the same time trying to sell me a $200 HDMI cable to connect it. I was not even shoping for a TV. I went in to grab a Apple gift card. I found it hard not to break out laughing.

The real question is if he or the cashier offered you an extended warranty during the checkout for the gift card?

During the process of finding a way to extract the bearings from the DeWalt RAS motor, I've been looking for a bearing pulley. A friend loaned me his which was form HF. As I tighten the cam, the legs which were supposed to be pulling the bearing were bending. So, I started calling auto stores to see if they have any before I will make the trip. Autozone, CarQuest, etc. The first question they ask "What year and model car is that for?". I answer it is not for a car and get "we sell car parts". Online for me as much as I can...

[ray hampton]

h f and lowe or hd sell drill chucks but they come without a morse taper,most stores will only stock the items that move quick

[Brian Kent]

I remember a hardware store in Downtown San Diego, a few blocks from the current Horton Plaza. Whenever the larger stores didn't have what I needed, they would send me to this place (it may have been San Diego Hardware, but that is the name of a different store now). Tiny old place. They had everything I ever asked for. I have no idea how they did it in such a small location. Maybe they didn't try to have 100 sets of anything. Just a few of everything and a great re-stocking system.

[Roger Feeley]

I guess I am lucky. My local Woodcraft (about 10 minutes away) is excellent. They know me pretty well so would imagine that I get a little better treatment than the guy off the street. A couple of times, I have sort of waffled on a tool and they have happily loaned me the one from back in the shop to try before I buy. Once I needed a veneer press for just one thing and they loaned me theirs. The guys are knowledgeable and willing to offer advice. They are also quick to admit that they don't know something. I always start there when I am considering a new purchase.