A word (not a rant) about Grizzly

[G Douglas Fowler]

Last week I posted a responsethat was critical of a Grizzly planer/joiner. Yesterday I received a call from the head of Grizzly technical supportregarding my concerns. For the record,in the past I have also posted favorable comments on other Grizzly products Iown as well as for their technical support personnel. I think Grizzly deserves recognition formonitoring influential user forums and taking the time and effort to respondwhere it seems appropriate. At Grizzly,at least, our opinions are taken seriously.

[Bill White]

You're right. They do monitor sites.
Now, what does Mr. B look like? All we ever see is the back of his head.
Also makes ya wonder why the Craftsman folks don't pay attention.
Bill

[Neil Brooks]

I believe he looks suspiciously like this:

http://images.usfclass.com/teams/2013/v1/formal/lg/02_large.jpg

[Bob Lloyd]

I think Grizzly deserves recognition for monitoring influential user forums and taking the time and effort to respond where it seems appropriate. At Grizzly,at least, our opinions are taken seriously.

I agree, it is always good to see.

[Ruel Smith]

I believe he looks suspiciously like this:

http://images.usfclass.com/teams/2013/v1/formal/lg/02_large.jpg

That's him! Here's another pic:

227835

[Dave Zellers]

Nice 'stache!

[Victor Robinson]

Sigh. Neil, must we take Google away from you?

[Matt Meiser]

But the head of technical support I believe is Bill Croffut.

[Wayne Hendrix]

Sigh. Neil, must we take Google away from you?

haha (and another haha to make 10 characters)

[Van Huskey]

Sigh. Neil, must we take Google away from you?

Be careful, he may BE Google...

[Chris Tsutsui]

Props to Grizzly on their "A" game and for keeping customers happy.

From experience I believe that Internet companies live and die by their online reputation. One negative review echoes through internet eternity.

The internet provides easy to find and instant feedback on customers. All it takes is one disgruntled customer and they can single handedly make an impact on that company's sales.

I think that internet companies need a flawless customer service and when they achieve that, the sales come pouring in from all over the world after people google your name and read the positive reviews.

Thus, good CS is the company doing their job for if they don't treat each customer like a VIP, they will pay the consequences. So Grizzly, and all the other companies may not have biggest hearts afterall... perhaps they are doing it because they have to. :)

[Neil Brooks]

Sigh. Neil, must we take Google away from you?

I'd be totally lost.

Mama', don't take my Kodachrome ....... :)

[glenn bradley]

On the occasions that I have required parts from grizzly I received email making sure that the part arrived, was correct, etc. I read some tales of woe about Grizzly and have to believe the folks reporting these things would probably have trouble with any retailer. don't get me wrong, everyone messes up now and then but, I've read some whoppers.

[Will Blick]

Agreed on the value of internet monitoring, and Grizz seems to be the only big maker of tools that does this.... Kudos to them. Like all big companies, your experiences can vary from time to time. I have a few big green machines, all offer tremendous value for the price, service has always been good.

My last purchase was a 20" helical planar...I was committed to remaining loyal to Grizz, called to see if I could get Byrd head on the 20" planar.... went through a maze of people, could not get a consistent answer, or price, or availability. Finally after a few days of phone calls, they said manager will call back. 12 days later he did, but got tired waiting and pulled the trigger on the same PM machine the day before. Both machines I had confidence in, they looked nearly identical except for paint color. No hard feelings, these things happen, no company is perfect.. this is why you can read both great reviews and poor reviews of customer service of a given company.

[Van Huskey]

I think many would be surprised at the machine companies that do indeed monitor forums. This has become clear in discussions with company reps at trade shows like IWF. The thing about Grizzly is they are more proactive. They also are in a different position in that the other machine companies have a dealer network that is supposed to deal with such issues and Grizzly has the ability (at least here) to look the person up and contact them directly. It is interesting to note that the perception of Grizzly CS has gone up over the last few "internet" years where others perceived CS has gone down in the same time frame. It probably has less direct effect on companies that don't rely as much on the internet but the longer the other companies lag behind the more effect it will have. Just because you have a better and more glitzy website doesn't mean you can ignore the negative information on the same internet...

[Will Blick]

> I think many would be surprised at the machine companies that do indeed monitor forums.

But very few participate, that is what baffles me. Look at the appreciation we show for Rob and Papa Grizz.... and even Charles from Freud. So where is Laguna, Powermatic, MiniMax, Delta, LN, Incra, Felder, etc. Whats wrong with having a presence, just like at ww shows. If you went to ww and Powermatic did not show up, that would be disappointing, well, the internet has similar if not greater reach....

[Cody Colston]

I have multiple Grizzly tools in my shop and Shiraz personally intervened when I posted about a problem I was having securing parts. (they were literally on a slow boat from China) Grizzly pulled the parts from a new machine in Springfield and overnighted them to me. Talk about customer service!

I'm a Grizzly fan and a huge admirer of Shiraz Balolia. He's not only the founder and president of Grizzly, he's a machinest, a woodworker, a Luthier, a world-class marksman, and a patriot. My kinda people.

[Danny Hamsley]

I, too, think that they are a class act. I really like my 15" planer with the spiral head. When it arrived, the gearbox had been pierced by a forklift fork, and the gear oil was all over the place. I refused shipment and called Grizzly. Four days later, a new replacement arrived in perfect condition. That is customer service in my book.

[Van Huskey]

> I think many would be surprised at the machine companies that do indeed monitor forums.

But very few participate, that is what baffles me. Look at the appreciation we show for Rob and Papa Grizz.... and even Charles from Freud. So where is Laguna, Powermatic, MiniMax, Delta, LN, Incra, Felder, etc. Whats wrong with having a presence, just like at ww shows. If you went to ww and Powermatic did not show up, that would be disappointing, well, the internet has similar if not greater reach....

Ahh the salient question. I meant to address that but my dog decided it was walking time and I posted and forgot to come back to it. Although I have not had discussions with every entity you mentioned I did with two of them and they each recited the same tale. They felt that is was counter productive as most threads where they tried to deal with a CS issue there was a piling on effect and they were rarely able to actually contact the person in question directly and rarely if ever were were allowed to actually remedy the issue. The bottom line is that they felt the person was not interested in actually having the issue addressed but only interested in making a fuss. One of the people had come to the conclusion that some of the complaints were actually shills. Having read woodworking forums for 10+ years (though never made the time to post until recently) I have actually seen what they recount unfold in real time, though I can't speak to the varacity of the individuals claim or the companies. This forum takes a dim view of unsubstatiated claims against manufacturers but some don't, to each their ow but this would be a "safer" environment to deal with issues than some forums, but once burned, twice shy.


As for not showing up to woodworking shows, I know what you mean, Grizzly wasn't at the last IWF and I din't see them listed this year when I registered. I don't understand this but I am sure they do, later down the road some companies in hind sight will wish they approached marketing/CS differently with regards to the internet and I certainly wouldn't bet either way in the big picture, that isn't my "bag". From my decidely outside looking in view it seems IWF (and AWFS) seem like a place one HAS to be, you don't normally see major players not at THE trade shows for their market BUT you don't usually see many major players on any internet forums in the hobbies I frequent. IWF is a strange place, you see everything from the next $100 "turn your router into a shaper" product to multi-million dollar factory upfit/outfit deals going on. Heck, come to IWF with camera ready logo art and meet with some of the Asian gentlemen (and ladies) at the nondescript tables with just a name (both in English and their particular language) and as quickly as containers can get from China/Taiwan to your town you can be the proud CEO of a woodworking machine company, Blickmaster, in your choice of colors!

Point being I don't know who is right or wrong in the big picture, but I do know what sells product to folks that spend a lot of time here. In the end good on anyone that can handle the slings and arrows of internet forums when your company is being taken to task!

[Will Blick]

Hi Van, nice response.... and we are mostly on the same page. Yes, Grizz prob. made the decision that too many ww shows is not cost effective vs. better internet presence, this might be a new trend in the mid tier priced tools.

I have been to IWF many times, fully agreed, its a mixed bag.

My point regarding these forums and manufacturers..... while someone might be a shill, or appear as a shill.... if such an attempt wants to be diffused, why wouldn't a company rep. contribute a simple post such as, pls call us, we will gladly remedy your situation. Anyone reading the thread will see the person is complaining to the wrong person, and the maker stands ready to fix the problem. That was my point...

In addition, what is wrong with vendors participating on these forums - to shine a bright light on their products where applicable in a thread? In due time, makers will figure this out and learn to participate on these forums on a more regular basis. When a CS rep explains an issue to a customer on the phone, he told ONE person this valuable information. When that same CS rep writes this same response, and posts on these forums, it will be read by thousands of customers or potential costumers over the next few years. These forums are a cost effective way for makers to reach customers, its that simple. It benefits the forums as well, as lets face it, there is NOTHING more powerful than hearing something direct from the maker. Pappa Grizz was / is ahead of the curve. Lately SS has jumped in at times which is nice.... and I have always enjoyed reading Charles posts from Freud.

[Van Huskey]

Will, I agree with you. I don't agree with their choice not to participate but I can see why they came to the conclusion.

[Myk Rian]

.... and even Charles from Freud.
I haven't seen a post by Charles in a long time.

[ian maybury]

I suppose truth be told that (a) many tool and equipment companies do some things they would rather not be called on, or at least have stuff happen on occasion that they would rather not be required to resolve in public in the glare of negative publicity, and (b) there's the risk unless you are very well well informed, tactically highly agile and just plain lucky of drawing flak from an irate/unreasonable poster - without necessarily even being in the wrong.

The web has a hugely amplifying effect anyway - quite a moderate incidence of issues, or a short term issue has the potential to create a very negative perception of a company. It's hard to communicate at the subtler level - most only skim threads and don't pick up a fraction of what's going down. The reverse is also true (as in a positive reputation can be quickly set up if key opinion formers are seen to big stuff up - and that doesn't require a publicly acknowledged presence), but I guess the 'give a dog a bad name' issue is there, and anyway the average employee is more concerned about the risk of personal exposure and its effect on their reputation within the company.

It's maybe not by accident that those like Mr. Grizzly that do post are either well established long time employees with high levels of knowledge, or as in the case of the former the owner who mostly only has to answer to himself if it goes wrong....

ian

[Anthony Whitesell]

I have multiple Grizzly tools in my shop and Shiraz personally intervened when I posted about a problem I was having securing parts. (they were literally on a slow boat from China) Grizzly pulled the parts from a new machine in Springfield and overnighted them to me. Talk about customer service!

I'm a Grizzly fan and a huge admirer of Shiraz Balolia. He's not only the founder and president of Grizzly, he's a machinest, a woodworker, a Luthier, a world-class marksman, and a patriot. My kinda people.

I think it would be safe to say that in the case of Grizzly the price of the equpment and the level of customer service are not hand in hand. Cost effective equipment and outstanding customer service.

[Ryan Mooney]

One of the people had come to the conclusion that some of the complaints were actually shills. Having read woodworking forums for 10+ years (though never made the time to post until recently) I have actually seen what they recount unfold in real time, though I can't speak to the varacity of the individuals claim or the companies. This forum takes a dim view of unsubstatiated claims against manufacturers but some don't, to each their own but this would be a "safer" environment to deal with issues than some forums, but once burned, twice shy.

Excellent point! In some places I've seen folks I'm about 99% sure are shills (both pro and con). I also know for a fact that this is becoming more common, its a lot cheaper to hire a couple of college kids at minimum wage to "first post comment" on articles/forums than it is to run a real advertising campaigns (this has been visibly true in a few cases with this years political campaigns). Its a bit of an arms race between a better educated internet populace and more clever tricks. I don't truly believe that SMC is 100% completely free of this, but the level here is vastly lower than the general internet and is much better policed (thanks mods). The generally more sophisticated readership here helps self police a lot as well, incorrect data mostly gets corrected pretty fast :D.

I (and I believe most others) sincerely do appreciate the folks who drop in here and help solve an issue or point out details/information that us plebes don't know and feel it really does reflect well on them and their affiliated companies. In at least one (and arguably 3 or 4) case I've spent real money because of it. There is a fine line between pimping your products and helping out where appropriate so I can also understand vendors who don't want to try and walk that line - its subtle (and impressive how well the vendors who post here do it!)

[Will Blick]

Shills? Yep, its all part of gorilla marketing in the new digital age. Amazon.com can't stop it either. But when you get 400 positive responses on Amazon, you can start ruling out shills.....or if you get 200 negative responses, once again, you kinda rule out shills...specially if you see the posters history of reviews...was this their only review? If so, be skeptical. So common sense comes along with the Wild Wild West of the Web... (WWWW) hee hee

Here on SMC and other forums, many members are known from years of posting, or years of contact with other fellow members... the likelihood of a shill slipping in becomes less likely, and many posters ARE FAST to point this out with the infamous, TROLL name calling, which seems synonymous with neg. shill. anyway, as you correctly state, this is such a tiny aspect of ww forums, it's almost a non-issue.

[Van Huskey]

One other thought, Grizzly is in an almost unique position to attend to issues that arise on this forum. Since one "must" use their real name here and Grizzly is in complte control of their retail pipeline they can look a person up and contact them directly, which they seem to be doing more often now than in the past. This would be practically impossible for say Delta since they don't have a data base with all their buyers names and contact information like Grizzly does.

The reality is that it is hard to quantify what a senario that plays out in a fourm means. If someone complains about XYZ corporations product in a forum and XYZ corp swoops in and rectifies the situation what does it mean? Does it mean XYZ corp is serious about CS or does it mean they are only serious about an issue if it becomes public (one also has to make a judgement if the customer did their part before shouting from the rooftops). In the end you have to really step back and see the entire picture, easier to do it you are a long time poster/reader on a forum, harder to do if you are just googling a specific product for the first time and forum threads pop up.


Myk, Charles most recent post that I am aware of was on Bill Huber's thread about Diablo sandpaper but I didn't bother to look it up.

[Keith Outten]

Let me qualify our position concerning commercial use of SawMill Creek. Our primary mission is supporting Woodworker to Woodworker communications.

We do not allow companies or their representatives who are not advertisers to use our Forums. When you see a user title that is a company name the account was created by me personally. Those who try to register with their company names are notified when their registration is deleted.

When the majority here decided several years ago that they preferred advertising pay the bills we had to make some serious changes to the rules. There is a down side to this arrangement, however this is what Members of this Community told us they preferred loud and clear. In a nutshell we cannot attract advertisers who are willing to provide financial support if they can use our Forums for free. Although tech support from non-advertisers is certainly valuable to everyone here it represents a violation of the rules and jeopardizes free access for all except our Contributors.

Shills and Trolls are difficult to identify. Because we may very well spend a considerable amount of time researching and proving their existence, the best we can, the penalty is very severe. When our resources are used without authorization it is theft, the same as if I went into their store and took their merchandize without paying.

We are also responsible to protect our advertisers rights here. Allowing their competitors to use The Creek for their own purpose using our advertisers funding is clearly an unacceptable situation. Finally any rants or negative comments concerning an advertiser here receive the utmost level of scrutiny from our Staff. False or unsupported statements made against those who provide the majority of the funding here are definitely not allowed, this is also true of any Member or Business whether they have a financial relationship with us or not.

From our Terms of Service
1. Direct Commercial Affiliation
Sawmill Creek maintains an active advertising and marketing program. As such, we seek to provide a non-competitive atmosphere for our advertisers by disallowing commercial posts from our members. Posts made by Members with direct commercial affiliation, and with the apparent intent of using SawMill Creek for the sole purpose of promoting a product or service will be subject to removal. Members with direct commercial affiliation are defined to be those Members who stand to benefit financially from such a promotion.

If a company offers you products or services in exchange for your participation here promoting their products it is considered a financial gain and you are considered to be a representative of their company by our Staff.
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[Will Blick]

Interesting Kieth, understood...

So what is the cost for these companies to contribute on the forums?

[Douglas Clark]

I've just gotten quite an education in the condition of the state of CS practices in the industry that I can't contribute to much. However, I can add my +1 to the OP's sentiment.

Like several others here I had the privilege of having Pappa Grizz, himself, respond to a post I made here about this time last year when I was waiting for my bandsaw, which was on backorder at the time. Of course, there wasn't much he could do at the time to break the logjam, but the fact that he responded at all was impressive enough to me. Frankly, I don't know quite where that guy finds the time to be all the places he seems to be.

At the end of the day, many if not most of us hobbiest woodworkers are attracted to it to some degree because of the "traditional" nature of woodworking itself, which includes to a large degree being part of a traditional community of craftsman who appreciate and support one another. Even if all of that takes place in more non-traditional ways these days (like on forums like SMC). I think companies that get this end up receiving the respect they deserve among the community while the one's that behave like faceless corporations are recognized as such, we make like their products, but we don't have much to say about them.

It seems to me that, ironically, sometimes maintaining one form of tradition may at times require breaking with other traditions. For instance, a family with a newly limited budget may have to pick which tradition they value more if they can no longer afford an annual vacation to Disneyland AND a monthly tradition of going to the movies together. In that case which tradition do you pick? Clearly you pick the one that best satisfies the values that are most important to you.

I think this is probably a bit of what is going on in the case of Grizzly not participating in IWF. In the past trade shows were a big tradition. They're fun, they're sexy they're an excuse to travel and spend and do something different and the marketing department really gets to have a ball. BUT, we all know that these shows are enormously expensive and many companies have started to questions whether they are the best investment anymore. Sure I love the hype, too, but once the honeymoon is over and the machine I fell in love with and purchased for that special tradeshow rate needs some work, which companies have the customer service that will match the sales job. These days there seem to be fewer companies that can do both well, or at least that will do both well. However, aside from their past tradeshow participation, Grizzly has a great reputation and tradition of great customer service, as well. Consequently, if not spending money on IWF means more money in the budget for maintaining high-quality customer service, then I'd rather see that tradition kept alive above the other. Because at the end of each shop day that's the one that I'm more likely to need to rely on. I think that despite being a modern businessman, Shiraz understands the value of maintaining traditions, but in cases where budgets dictate which traditions can be kept and which need to be let go, he'd probably rather maintain a tradition of really good and close customer service on a daily basis. And as long as he delivers on that tradition, then his name will be good in the community and even though Grizzly is a very modern company, it will be seen as a company that values the most important core values that we traditional woodworker types prefer.

Anyhow... just my thoughts on the subject. These are tough economic times, and though I'm only 35, I don't take the thought of economic recovery for granted, let alone retirement. I think it may just take that long to recover this time. Unfortunately, I'm also young enough and sadly part of a generation that may let customer service die altogether. Not because people won't want to be served themselves (constantly and selfishly), but because they have forgotten the Golden Rule and don't know how to serve others. Consequently, no one will know how to provide it anymore. There's just too many people out there who want to be served without being willing or even knowing how to properly serve others.

[Steve Meliza]

In other non-woodworking forums I've seen it setup such that a company can pay for a separate forum area for discussing their products and they have full admin control of that area. One company that chose to go this route answers questions several times a day, 7 days a week (usually just the CEO on the weekends and holidays) and are developing a large and loyal customer base with very few complaints. A competing company selling similar products (often with serious QA issues) has gone the free route of handling all questions of their products in a single thread of over 12k posts and almost all issues relating to faulty hardware are quickly handled via PM with the user apparently getting prompt and free repair or replacement.

Both means of support are a huge improvement over what you get from the big brand names that you would find in a local store and both are quick to implement customer ideas and feedback. It seems to be the smaller companies (eg. 10 employees or less) that excel at this while the big brands limit support to an 800 number staffed 40 hours a week like a horse that doesn't realize he's about to be replaced by the car. If I saw a woodworking company paying for and providing frequent support on user forums such as this one it would be enough to make me choose them over a competitor whom I might have otherwise purchased from.

[fRED mCnEILL]

" perhaps they are doing it because they have to. "

Isn't that why ALL sucessful companies do it?

[Keith Outten]

Everyone has had to tighten their budgets over the last few years. The home budget directly effects most business budgets, if people are having to be more selective concerning fewer purchases companies that intend to survive will have to adjust their business model. Smart companies read the cards and make adjustments quickly.

Volume sales during good times pay the very high costs of participating in events like IWF. The costs associated with moving very heavy machines across the country and the fees associated with a facility large enough to host such an event are staggering. When sales volume drops it forces every company to evaluate their business plan and make adjustments, the same as we have to do when our personal income is reduced for whatever reason.

We had to totally revise our banner advertising system when the economic crunch hit us like a ton of bricks and we lost the majority of our advertisers. I understood at the time that we would have to find another way for our advertisers to share in the exposure here equally so we could reduce our fees. We quickly adjusted from static banner ads to a rotating system which lowered the cost of advertising here to a level that most companies could afford. Even so we suffered for awhile because it took some time for businesses to adjust their advertising budgets. What saved SawMill Creek was the fact that we were diversified in our approach to funding this Community. We don't rely extensively on advertisers, we have Contributor Support and sales of hats, DVD's, etc that spread our operating costs just enough so we can handle a short term drop in one area or the other. We survived the worst of it but we are still recuperating financially and the situation is having an effect on our hardware and software budgets to this day. Our labor costs are fixed because we can't reduce a workforce of three people, the loss of just one person means we can't continue. During the worst of the economic adjustment period it was our Contributors here who once again saved the day as we had an increase of donations for a short period of time that helped us get through the transformation period.

Most of our advertisers have been supporting The Creek for quite some time now, we shouldn't discount their participation here nor the value of their continued financial support. WE have grown to a level that exceeds my ability to subsidize a drop in income from my sign shop so we have to have financial support or go offline.
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[Keith Outten]

In other non-woodworking forums I've seen it setup such that a company can pay for a separate forum area for discussing their products and they have full admin control of that area.


Steve,

We provided Manufacturing Forums here for several years. They were very successful for the companies who were active in their forums but they were a financial bust in terms of support for SawMill Creek. In addition to zero income the manufacturers forums created a lot of work for our Moderators and consumed a major portion of our bandwidth and server capacity.

I have long been a proponent of bringing together the companies that provide the machines and services woodworkers purchase with the Members of this Community. We have been making progress but we still have a long way to go. There is concern among companies that involvement in communities such as ours can backfire and do irreparable damage to their reputation. Here at The Creek I believe we are close to establishing a new kind of relationship with the businesses that we patronize but there is still a matter of a very small group of people who tend to rant and rave with reckless abandon that we must convince to change their ways before we will be able to gain the necessary trust to make this happen.

Grizzly and several other companies that are active here are reaching out offering to meet us half way. The question is are we willing to give as much as we will take.........

If you read Van Huskey's post number 19 in this thread he has hit the nail directly on the head. This is why I have been tightening the rules here concerning rants and irresponsible/unsupported comments made toward businesses here. Although there are times when a "Rant" is warranted the majority of them simply damage any chance that this Community has to move our relationship with businesses up to the next level. "The needs of the many outweigh the sacrifice of a few", a quote from Spock that I tend to believe is pertinent to our situation.
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