Naniwa 'Chosera' waterstones.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I'd like to hear thoughts on these. especially about cutting speed and how they do with HSS. I'm looking for a stone I can use on my bench instead of carrying to the kitchen.

[Stuart Tierney]

In one word?

Meh.

They kinda work with HSS, but aren't what I'd call effective.

Folks here will say different of course, telling you they work fine with HSS.

My standards for 'working' with HSS are quite reasonable, in that you can actually expect to put an edge on a piece of hard HSS in a reasonable time, and that also means being able to abrade the full bevel. If it can't do the full bevel and actually cut, it's ineffective although the stone might still work.


My take on it.

Stu.

[Chris Griggs]

Nice stones, but some are bit too finicky for my tastes. I like the 400 and 600. The 3k is great. The 1k tends to load up and as someone on a knife forum once said it vomits green vulcan blood all over the place, especially when its new. Haven't used the 5k or 10k, but I have a small cracked 1X6 piece of a 10k on the way to my house that I got for $15 just out of curiosity about the stones characteristics. Again overall, some of the grits are very nice, but there definitely other stones I like better. I don't have any HSS edge tools so I can't comment on that.

[David Weaver]

I'd like to hear thoughts on these. especially about cutting speed and how they do with HSS. I'm looking for a stone I can use on my bench instead of carrying to the kitchen.

They cut extremely fast (thinking specifically about the 10k, because that's the stone that usually makes people buy choseras). They probably don't cut HSS at any more than half the speed they cut anything else, though, but the entire point of HSS is that it's heat tolerant to grind, there's no need to have a stone that cuts HSS fast. You do need to be able to get a fine edge, but a hollow grind and diamond lapidary, film, or a belt grinder with compound are far better for sharpening HSS than stones. A lapidary surface with compound lets you go both ways with heavy pressure, and few stones let you do that. It also stays flat.

Generally, the stones that will cut HSS fast are filled with compromises that make them not that great for general sharpening, especially when you start getting into carving tools and small irons on speciality planes (and you'll get there), which demand harder stones.

All of that said, unless I was buying a second set of stones to complement other stones, I would not buy any stones based on their ability to cut HSS. You won't find any professional woodworkers doing cabinetmaking kind of stuff using much HSS at all off the lathe, and you'll not find any who don't grind the primary bevel with a sander or a grinder.

I'll give the chosera 10k a whiz with a muji blade this weekend (which is gummy hss), to this point I haven't done it because what little HSS i like to use in the shop I just do on stones and then swipe on chromium oxide or a lapidary belt to bring the edge to excellent sharpness.

I personally wouldn't buy the choseras as a general set of sharpening stones, though I might compromise on a set like that by buying the 10k chosera and supplementing the lower stones with something cheaper. with a short soak, the 10k is the most dreamy synthetic stone you'll find, but it is an expenditure that is not necessary for anything. I would narrow my two stone choices to shapton professionals (bought for the best price I could find) or stu's sigma ceramic line, depending on how hard of a stone you want.

The HSS craze is a gentleman woodworker and a carpenter thing. I haven't seen most professional woodworkers express any desire for trick steels or trick stones.

[Matthew N. Masail]

thanks... I just hate having to move to the kitchen to sharpen.... maybe I'll just have to get a plastic try for sharpening. I don't know how hard a stone I want... I just want sharpening to be fun not annoying... with the sigma line there is no question about the grits. but what would you get from the shaptons?

Stu, I sent you an e-mail about getting some stones.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

What is making you move to the kitchen to sharpen? A decent supply of water? The mess? Something to soak in?

First thing that springs to mind for "not moving to the kitchen to sharpen" is oilstones, but that might not be the answer you're looking for. I also don't think they'd be the best bet on HSS either, but I've very little experience with that stuff.

[Chris Griggs]

Stu, I sent you an e-mail about getting some stones.

A wise decisions. Just buy what he recommends and be done with it. For Shaptons Dave W will recommend just getting the 1k and 12k/15k. I haven't used the shaptons but do tend to agree with Daves two stone philosophy.

[David Weaver]

thanks... I just hate having to move to the kitchen to sharpen.... maybe I'll just have to get a plastic try for sharpening. I don't know how hard a stone I want... I just want sharpening to be fun not annoying... with the sigma line there is no question about the grits. but what would you get from the shaptons?

Stu, I sent you an e-mail about getting some stones.

Shaptons, oilstone or film would limit how much water you need to have around. I sharpen on a bench with shaptons. I have a squirt bottle with water in it, and generally will go through one squirt bottle in two weeks.

When I flatten a stone, I just spritz the stone with the squirt bottle and let the swarf drip onto the floor, and it eventually gets swept up when it dries.

There are many ways to stretch an edge on carbon steel or A2 steel that is preferable, to me, to HSS.

I got the bug for HSS planes a few years ago when I dimensioned cocobolo blanks that were extremely hard on my other planes. I could live without HSS even for that, but definitely for everything else, I would rather have carbon steel or A2 for planes, and for chisels, just carbon steel of some sort.

For shaptons I would get 1k/12k or 15k (whatever the fine stone is that shapton offers in professionals). I would avoid the glasstones.

I think most people new to sharpening will prefer stu's stones to shaptons because they are softer and a little easier to use. I think most experienced woodworkers who end up sharpening carving tools and other odd things (that are hard on the surface of stones that aren't rock hard) will appreciate harder stones like shaptons or oilstones, which give you lot more leeway in terms of avoiding accidentally gouging the surface of the stones.

If every single one of my stones disappeared in a micronuclear blast, I would probably get a 1k shapton and a 15k shapton again and not rush to get much else. But, most newer users will still prefer a stone that's softer and a bit muddier.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks David! the shapton pro is 12000. and you know , if you get another, there might just be enough radio active stuff in it to cause that blast ! seriously just kidding.

[Chris Griggs]

My little slice of a Cho 10k came today! I just finished playing with it, and indeed it is very very nice. Doesn't seem to suffer from the problems of the 1k, polishes very very quickly, is quite hard in a very nice way. Works well soaked, spritz, or wettted then wiped dry. I hate to say it, but just in terms of subjective feel I like I think I like it a little beter than the Sig 13k BUT I definitely don't like it $150 more than the sig 13k. Now if someone said to me I could have a Cho 10k for the price of other stones in its grit range I'd probaby chose it over others, as it's as nice a stone as I've ever used, and really does seem to live up to what folks say about it. But really the things that may be better about it than other stones in its range are only incrementally better (as well as subjective), the end result is the same, and given that it is known for being fragile its not a stone I'd readily throw $250-$300 at.

[Archie England]

The Chosera stones are great stones! They're also nearly twice the cost of most others. When I bought my Sigma Power stones from Stu (TFJ), I did so for cost and EFFECTIVENESS on flattening blade backs. I had several other options (grinders, sandpaper, and Tormek) to sharpen bevels. Only after getting my 1-6-13 stones, did I discover just how terrifically sharp (better, sharper) that Japanese water stones could do both backs and bevels! The Sigmas definitely keep cutting and don't load up--like the Choseras. However, neither do Bester stones, for that matter. However, despite the cost and loading, the Chosera stones are genuinely good stones; they're just different--better in some ways and worse in others.

I have no doubt that I'd be happy with any of the better quality stones. If that's true (I and think it is) then the less expensive stones provide equal service for a lot less. However, if the hardness or mud of a stone is that significant, then buy what best satisfies your itch.

My 2 cents,

Archie

[Joel Moskowitz]

I love my Choseras and While I haven't used them on HSS they work awesome on D2. I don't understand the issues on clogging. Mine don't clog. I also soak them before use for at least 15 minutes. They are very much designed to feel/ behave like a natural stone - and they do.

[David Weaver]

The chosera 10k does have the best feel, running away. In fact, there are only a couple of natural stones that I have that feel as good. Most of my natural stones are a bit tougher to use in terms of feel. The 10k when soaked is also the only fine stone that i've used that doesn't load, but isn't soft.

[Jim Foster]

What do you mean by "feel?" I struggle with chatter using my King's and I assume it's due to not enough practice yet.
The chosera 10k does have the best feel, running away. In fact, there are only a couple of natural stones that I have that feel as good. Most of my natural stones are a bit tougher to use in terms of feel. The 10k when soaked is also the only fine stone that i've used that doesn't load, but isn't soft.

[Joel Moskowitz]

I would agree that the Chosera 10K is something special but I use a 1K and 5K CHoersa all the time and love the feel of them and never had a clogging problem. MY guess is that a good soak is important.

[Archie England]

I love my Choseras and While I haven't used them on HSS they work awesome on D2. I don't understand the issues on clogging. Mine don't clog. I also soak them before use for at least 15 minutes. They are very much designed to feel/ behave like a natural stone - and they do.

Since you used "clog" not "load," I'm not sure if we're addressing the same thing. However, what I mean by "loading" is that the stones, after 15" or so soaking, cut metal so quickly that the blackened mud/swarf begins to darken on the sharpening path to the point that I must add more water or wipe off the swarf to expose the bare stone. This is what I call glazing or loading. For me, there is a definite change in the cutting nature of the stone as it loads--the more so it loads, the less so it cuts. The polish, however, is nice. But at 1k level, I'm not as interested in polish. My Cho 3k acts similar to the 1k but it doesn't load as quickly.

Now, the Cho 1k cuts my O1 and A2 blade bevels much faster than any other 1k stones I've tried (Arashiyama, Norton, Bester, Sigma power). For blade backs, the Sigma and Bester are faster, with Sigma being the faster of these two. When I compare edge sharpness off the Cho 1k vs these others, the Cho wins--hands down the sharpest and typically the best polished, too. But the Cho requires more attention to reach that goal than the Sigma. Having never used the Chosera 5k or 10k, I'm not sure how to compare their results; but, I'm quite convinced by constant use from my 1k and 3k that the Chosera stones are seriously good stones--just seriously expensive.

[Chris Griggs]

To clarify of the one I've used (400, 600, 3k, 10k) the 1k is the only one I don't particularly care for. Also, the ones I've used are Archie's not mine so in all fairness to the stones, I probably haven't played with them enough to make a super sound judgement. But I have used his several times, on the 1k anyway, the clogging/glazing/loading was apparent each time. BUT, and this is the big but, the clogging issue is specific to working backs. It wouldn't be an issue for all day to day use. Basically, my feeling was that the 1k was a great stone in many ways, but I wouldn't want it as my only 1k stone - again it just felt a bit finicky. Using it side by side with a Bester 1200 and a Sig 1k, I personally prefer the bester and the sig as a total package, but again this is subjective. I think the Chos were soaked about 10+ minutes, but I haven't used them enough to experiment with different soaking times, and I should have been clearer about my limited use when initially posted. Again, the 10k is phenominal, but for me its not phenominal enough to pay $250 for it - I certainly wouldnt try to talk someone who has the cash out of buying it, but I wouldnt reccomend it as a first choice to someone just looking to get into/upgrade to ceramic waterstones either.

[Stuart Tierney]

Just quickly...

Clogging is where the stone stops working due to excessive material on the stone. Could be swarf (abraded steel), could be mud (dislodged stone material) could be both. The 'stops working' is either due to the abrading action ceasing or the process is sporadic and ineffective.

Loading is very similar, caused by the same things as clogging but the stone is still working, although likely at a reduced rate but the rate of reduction depends upon the variables of steel being worked, amount of steel being worked, type of stone, amount of water, pressure, wind direction and velocity, barometric pressure and what you had for lunch last Thursday. In that order, or thereabouts.

Joel is correct, the Chosera 1K needs to be properly soaked (or worn in) before it works properly. No soaking, it's a pig of a stone. Properly soaked, and it's real nice. When new, the soaking is 'spotty' and needs to be soaked longer than a well worn in stone. Probably manufacturing contamination (not unusual in any stone) and once that's gone, soaking takes but a couple minutes. Just don't soak them too long and no perma-soaking.

I've never had any Chosera I have 'clog' but they all load to some point. They're hard enough that the loading allows you to coax a better finish from them than the grit rating allows, but soft enough that any clogging that might occur breaks loose before it's an issue (and before you notice it) so becomes 'loading' rather than genuine 'clogging'.

Very few 1K range stones actually 'clog', this is largely an affliction specific to finer stones.

Stu.


P.S. Archie? Umm, the Sigma you use and the Sigma I use aren't the same any more...

Yours is old reliable. Mine's the same, cranked up to 11 (or 12). ;)

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah Stu. Archie and I saw your post about the new Sig 1200. Sounds very very nice!!!!

What I experienced on the Cho 1k is what I would describe as clogging in a way I haven't seen on other 1k stones, but I'll concede to Joel and Stu and assume that it was a result of insuffient soak time. Archie, go soak your Cho 1k for 20 minutes, go to town on it, and report back. Next time I come over and I want to play with your Cho 1k after a longer soak.

[Joel Moskowitz]

When I sharpen I expect a black smear of steel to come off on the stone with each stroke. It also should be in a mud of water - in the Chosera case - more steel than stone as the Cho is a harder stone than some. I sharpen at my sink, and routinely pour more water on top of the stone as I use it so clogging or loading has never been something I even notice.

[Stuart Tierney]

Chris,

It's a variable thing with the Chosera. Joel just mentioned he's soaking his for 20 minutes, so his is 'wet'. I just used mine with some water on the top, and it was as it should be too.

I think that a well worn in Chosera probably doesn't need the same soak time a new one does. I know that mine was a right PITA when it was new, but after quite a bit of use and getting through the 'skin' on it, it seems to be ready to go very quickly and a longer soak won't make it any better or worse.

Joel? If you wouldn't mind, the next time you use your 1K (or 5K), could you not soak it, just throw some water on it and see what it does? I'm guessing yours is as well worn in as mine, and if they're working as a 'splash and go' when worn in, it's something to file away in the memory bank. Humidity might also be an issue, since where I am is constantly 'wet' and where you are is likely much drier than here ever gets.

Stu.

[Archie England]

Yep, Stu, I've already put the new Sigma 1200 in my cart--but not yet pulled the trigger. I'm deliberating over the SP 400 or the 8000. Too many options (and I already have too many stones!).

Yes, Joel, with water continuously dripped, the loading breaks up--as it will if wiped off and then re-wet. And, no, I've never had my Cho 1k clog; but it has loaded in accordance with what Stu described. Since I don't have a sink to work over, the Cho 1k is much messier than the Sigma 1k or the Bester 1200. Nonetheless, on bevels, it's nearly unbeatbable--just blasted expensive!

[Joel Moskowitz]

Joel? If you wouldn't mind, the next time you use your 1K (or 5K), could you not soak it, just throw some water on it and see what it does? I'm guessing yours is as well worn in as mine, and if they're working as a 'splash and go' when worn in, it's something to file away in the memory bank. Humidity might also be an issue, since where I am is constantly 'wet' and where you are is likely much drier than here ever gets.

Stu.

Stu,
I just used my 1K and 5K with no soaking, just running under the water. It worked fine. But I think if I continued to sharpen (and I was only doing one knife) I would have to add more water or it would clog. It didn't and it worked fine and fast. I don't have a sense if doing this with a broken in stone gives the same performance as a soak, on first glance it might, but I need more experience and a better direct comparison.

[Stuart Tierney]

Stu,
I just used my 1K and 5K with no soaking, just running under the water. It worked fine. But I think if I continued to sharpen (and I was only doing one knife) I would have to add more water or it would clog. It didn't and it worked fine and fast. I don't have a sense if doing this with a broken in stone gives the same performance as a soak, on first glance it might, but I need more experience and a better direct comparison.

Hi Joel,

Thanks for that. Kind of suspected that a worn in/well used stone would behave like that. I too only used it with a single plane blade, and no troubles to speak of. I don't think mine would have started clogging, as the water wasn't soaking in and was staying on top and continued to do so. Didn't try the 5K though, so might give that a shot later on today if I have a chance. I don't expect any surprises there though.

I'd never tried it before myself, but hey, if it works, why not?


Archie,

You influenced my most recent SP request, an AlOx in 3-4K. I don't when/if it will arrive, but that might sway your decision.


Stu.

[Archie England]

[QUOTE=Stuart Tierney;1900930
Archie,

You influenced my most recent SP request, an AlOx in 3-4K. I don't when/if it will arrive, but that might sway your decision.


Stu.[/QUOTE]

Hot Dog~~!!!! Now, that's something to look forward to trying.

BTW, for all you 2 or 3 stoners....

I do get the idea of simpler sharpening; but, there's a genuine improvement of the upper level grits by going through the intermediate grits. Truth is, a well-sharpened 1k-ish blade will cut face or edge grain just fine--and any higher grit stone will effectively make that 1k edge even better! So hats off to David Weaver, Wilbur Pan, and others. BTW, I think that's why there's such a following for many with the scary sharp method--you don't have to get a blade to 6000 grit to get it sharp. HOWEVER, cutting end grain is a much more demanding task, and a 10k-13k edge will easily slice what a 1k-4k edge will roughly slice. For me, there's even a greater benefit of going beyond my Sigma 6k stone, which so far has no competitors! When I use the Cho 3k or the Gesshin 4k before my Sigma 6k, the 6000 stone just works even faster and better!!!!!!! In the end, I've saved little time; it's just that there's a improvement in the real sharpness of the blade (IMO).

[Chris Griggs]

Question for Joel and/or Stu. Any idea how long you can soak Choseras before you risk damage to them. I know they can't be permasoaked, but could you leave them in the water for the duration of a few hours while working in the shop or is anything over 30 minutes potentially harmful?

[Archie England]

Great question, Chris! I'd love to know that, too.

BTW, I've let my Cho's soak for about 30 min before using--with no noticeable problems.

[David Weaver]

Hot Dog~~!!!! Now, that's something to look forward to trying.

BTW, for all you 2 or 3 stoners....

I do get the idea of simpler sharpening; but, there's a genuine improvement of the upper level grits by going through the intermediate grits. Truth is, a well-sharpened 1k-ish blade will cut face or edge grain just fine--and any higher grit stone will effectively make that 1k edge even better! So hats off to David Weaver, Wilbur Pan, and others. BTW, I think that's why there's such a following for many with the scary sharp method--you don't have to get a blade to 6000 grit to get it sharp. HOWEVER, cutting end grain is a much more demanding task, and a 10k-13k edge will easily slice what a 1k-4k edge will roughly slice. For me, there's even a greater benefit of going beyond my Sigma 6k stone, which so far has no competitors! When I use the Cho 3k or the Gesshin 4k before my Sigma 6k, the 6000 stone just works even faster and better!!!!!!! In the end, I've saved little time; it's just that there's a improvement in the real sharpness of the blade (IMO).

Actually, there is no improvement from moving incrementally through grits if a "two stoner" minimizes the area of metal that they work and completely removes the medium grit (like 1000) stone scratches. The only tools that call for the incremental technique are japanese tools, and even at that, the two stone method could easily be applied but the bevel of the tools wouldn't look nearly as pretty. An increase of the bevel with the second stone (on something with a flat bevel) of even two degrees is plenty to remove the full depth of the scratches from the medium stone.

This applies all the way through razors, where coticule.be touts one of the methods (the unicot method) as basically working the bevel with a loaded coticule (which is equivalent to using a coarser stone) and then clearing the stone to water and applying black electrical tape to the spine of a razor (which applies a microbevel).

You can do the same thing referencing the hollow (without lifting at the polish step for a second bevel) if you keep the bands of honed metal narrow and refresh the hollow quickly every 3 or 4 hard honings.

The only time skipping grits doesn't work well is when someone doesn't remove the full depth of the scratches from the prior stone. Once you arrive to a uniform edge with a fine stone, it doesn't matter how you get there.

[Chris Griggs]

Ha ha! Archie's a hard core stoner! What will your colleagues think?

[Stuart Tierney]

Question for Joel and/or Stu. Any idea how long you can soak Choseras before you risk damage to them. I know they can't be permasoaked, but could you leave them in the water for the duration of a few hours while working in the shop or is anything over 30 minutes potentially harmful?

Says on the side of the stone that 1 hour is the maximum.

(Says it in Japanese, on the edge of the stone, which is probably why you couldn't just read that yourselves...)

Also says the stone should be allowed to dry naturally/slowly.


With regard to soaking, I've also used the 5K as a splash and dash, and it was inconsistent. If you'd like to give the quick soak a shot, if the stone looks 'wetted' after a splash, you should be fine. If there's anywhere that looks mottled/spotty, then it's not soaked in those areas and will give trouble until the water starts to soak in somewhat. Once it's wetted properly, no trouble with it at all aside from a propensity to load since there's no water coming up from inside the stone to keeps things moving.

P.S. Matthew? Working on a reply to you now. Didn't want you to think I'd forgotten. ;)

Stu.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for the translation Stu!

So while we are on the subject of grit skipping and 2 stone setups I'll add this about the Cho 10K, which i spent a bit more time messing with today. As far as polishing stones that can follow a 1k go, the Cho 10k is definitely a winner. It really does cut crazy fast - the amount of swarf it produces looks more like the swarf produced on a 4k-6k stone, and it really does remove the 1k scratch pattern in a hurry. This is especially when you give it a good soak. For me , its speed is definitely its biggest advantage when compared to other 10k+ stone (although I've only used a few).

Also, you can do the thing were you dry it off and push it to a finer edge which is cool. It actually works quite nicely dried off.

Its funny, the little piece I bought (1x6x1/8") is so so small that I really didn't think it would be good for anything other then experimenting. I didn't stop to think until I started using it that I mostly side sharpen now anyway so the size really isn't a hindrance at all. It won't last all that long but I think I'll actually end up using it as part of my sharpening setup until it runs out.

(BTW for those interested I got it under the "seconds/used" (http://www.chefknivestogo.com/seconds.html)section of CKTG. It was cut to size for that knife sharpening "edge pro" thing, but cracked so they were selling it or a song. Nothing there anymore, but if you can free hand side sharpen, might be worth your while to check back there once in a while, as it is a nice way to get a taste of a stone, without dropping loads of cash - gotta thank Arch for pointing it out to me and not buying it before I did!)

[David Weaver]

The cho 10k is definitely smooth and fast, I may have mentioned prior that when the stones are all clean, with carbon or A2, it is the fastest 8k or above finish stone I have. The shapton is second when it is clean, though it will load faster than the rest of the softer stones. The sigma 13k is slower, probably attributed to the fact that it's definitely finer by half step vs. the shapton and probably also finer than the cho10k.

(by no means is the rest of this directed at Chris's post)

Loading on any of the stones discussed is an issue for beginners, though, it's not difficult to overcome, and making a stone devoid of any loading from a beginner is likely to lead beginners to a stone that's not desirable in the long term. Familiarity with a stone or method will always outweigh the discussion that's flowed out here about the virtues of one stone vs. another, which is already too deep for any boots that I have.

Somehow, this has become an incredibly complex discussion that makes it sound like very good (great in my opinion) stones have a bunch of shortcomings and that nobody should buy a stone unless it can abrade an entire bevel of hardened lathe tool steel quickly, exit earth under its own power, and reenter at room temperature while retaining all of its virtues.

It makes my eyes cross. I hope no beginners read it and think that anything in this discussion will forward their woodworking above and beyond a two oilstone regimen that existed 150+ years ago.

We're just way off in lala land here, and the gentleman's era is just beginning.

[Noah Wagener]

i don't own any high speed steel but i ran into this while stone shopping:http://www.timbertools.com/Products/Belgian-Coticule.html

Pretty outrageous claims. Check out the Thurungian stone they sell too. People on straight razor forums rave about this stone.

I thought i read in a Roy Underhill book that Europeans used emory or Turkish stones until the Arkansas stones were dicovered and thought to be a godsend. This link would suggest the otherwise.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, it's not accurate (I have some coticules, but they are intended for razors). We do rave about thuringians, too, but timbertools isn't selling the thuringians we rave about. The thuringians we rave about were mined out in about 1930 or so by escher & co, and what's sold now as thuringians (muller thuringians) are a coarser stone that feels like a coarse hone slate. They are probably closer to a 3000 grit waterstone.

The original escher stones are probably in grit size similar to a 5000-8000 grit stone, but they usually are hard enough that the grit is fixed and they will break in like an oilstone and cut very finely and give a soft edge on a razor (one that cuts hair but doesn't cause razorburn).

Same with a coticule - soft edge. But coticules are not good for HSS for two reasons, (even if they will abrade it some on a slurry - for two reasons):
* the particles in a coticule are a notch or so harder than novaculite, but not close in hardness to the synthetic abrasives. Diamonds are the gold standard for hand sharpening HSS since they will abrade everything in it, including types that have a lot of vanadium carbides.
* the particles/garnets in coticules are large. When they are rolling around in a slurry and pressure is used, they can make a fairly coarse edge. Even without pressure, they make a coarse edge. Their virtue is that even with a coarse fairly dull edge, they don't usually give you razorburn.

timbertools carries ardennes coticules, but everyone who carries new ones does, too, because ardennes is the only open mine. In general, my opinion of timbertools is that they offer marginal stuff for a lot of money. (for example, best sharpening stones has the same ardennes 8x3 coticule for $380 - that timbertools wants $531 for). Razor folks have really gotten carried away with new ardennes coticules, and they have taken the original eschers to the moon, but the opinion about the mullers seems to depend on whether or not people have much exposure to good natural stones, especially vintage stones. Ardennes may have some stones that are up there with vintage stones, but I think you have to go to them to get them (and the prices I've seen are even higher).

I've had something of all of them (ardennes coticules, vintage coticules, new muller thuringians, and a huge escher). A vintage razor coticule and a vintage escher are true razor stones, but still not good for tools because tool pressure will create a slurry.

Roy is right, there was a friable type of stone that was black and fragile called turkish oilstones, they were liked because they cut fast, but they were also fragile and had to be flattened. Washita stones of the pike mine type (lilywhites) dominate every stone I've seen from europe as a one-stone solve all for tools. There are hone slates and novaculites in the UK that are the equivalent of our trans and black stones, but they are a little softer and not as consistent from one to the next.

At any rate, we have the natural stones that we have for tools for pretty good reason. Japanese natural waterstones (though that's a minefield of its own) are good in the fine stones, and novaculite stones are good across the range from coarse to fine. They dominated the natural stone trade for tools because they're the best natural stones for tools.

[Noah Wagener]

I think you have used every sharpening stone there is.You must be either really rich or really poor. Their is a blacksmith Murray Carter on youtube who may have you beat in diverse sharpening media though. He sharpens on cinder blocks, raised grain from water logged wood, flagstones rubbed together, et al. He puts that extra finishing touch after the cinder block using newspaper. He says that Japanese newspaper works the best. I can't tell if he is serious or making fun of stone heads. According to him the sharpening is 99% technique and 1% stone or car bumper, coffee mug, bone or whatever he uses to demonstrate this. He even shaves with a spoon in one video.

Sorry to digress. Thanks fro saving me 2 hundered as i was considering that big Thurungian from timber tools. Do you have any of that Welsh purple slate? There is cabinet maker on ebay who sells that stuff for what looked like reasonable prices to me. http://www.ebay.com/itm/181201003055 He markets it to straight razor people but says he uses them with tools. He says that something like you just wrote about mellowing the edge with a slurry but this slurry will not happen naturally without a slurry stone. Thus making it suitable for tools? Could you elaborate on a soft edge? I can't imagine you mean rounded at all?

[David Weaver]

So, would you be surprised if I said I had three of those slates at various times? The seller goes by AJ-001 or something like that on ebay. I had a big purple and two of the greenish/black slates. They are suitable as a finish stone like an oilstone, but they gouge a little easier and with a slurry, they cut fairly fine but different than a novaculite stone.

What is the case, to me, with every razor stone that is out there made of natural materials, is that if the stone cannot hold its grit without shedding it, it won't be a fine enough finisher for a razor (but would probably be fine for tools if you're not comparing it to a 10,000 grit waterstone).

I thought coticules were crappy for tools because tool pressure will remove garnets (my opinion from using a lagrise natural combo stone, which is pretty hard and not regarded that well for razors because of it). I thought the purple slate was fairly nice for tools because it has pretty fine grit, but it is somewhat slow if the grit stays fixed in place. If we were in the UK instead of having to pay the nasty postage from there to here, those stones would be very cheap, and I'd say just pick one up for entertainment. I do think the subjective grit ratings of those stones are too high. With slurry, the black stones were a lot like the good guanxhi chinese stones -but not as hard - and the purpose stones were similar. That's probably like a 6000 grit waterstone. The drive to push them to fineness pays off in razors, because you don't have to sharpen much off of them. Same with the chinese stones. If you have the patience, you can drive them to very good sharpness on a razor if they are consistent and hold their grit in place, but with tools, they all, to me, just take too long and in the balance of things don't seem to yield an edge that matches the time they take to sharpen.

I sold all of my hone slates on the razor board (which has a slick classifieds section that really enables stone people).

I thought the escher sucked on tools, too, for the same reason (too soft, and I only tried it because I had it - I would never have bought one for tools). Not to mention the costs. All of those stones do their best work under light pressure and with very little metal to remove.

Tools on the purple slate on water will release a little bit, the fewer scratches it has in the surface from lapping, the less it gives up. Put oil on it, and it stops giving up anything completely but is slow, too. I never found those stones to have that soft of an edge, nor hone slates in general other than whatever the thuringian region stones are (I guess they are a hone slate of some sort). That's why I got rid of them, I guess. Broken in, they were a decent natural stone substitute for someone on a budget. The soft guangxi chinese stones are no good for anything, and the hard ones are a little harder than a hone slate - same thing - if you had a slurry stone to get loose particles, they'd seem to cut fine for a tool, but they are by far the most valuable (comparing their properties to expensive stones) as a stone that's never touched with any heavy hand and that is allowed to wear in. Same for the eschers.

Same consideration applies on tools as it does for oilstones - plainer steels are better unless you want to let some slurry roll around.

i saw murray carter's discussion of japanese newspaper. I'm not sure where to take that guy seriously and when, he's quite the marketer, but it does look like he makes nice (but very expensive) knives and his enthusiasm seems genuine. We went some rounds with him over straight razors (especially some of professional honers on razors), but he's sure of his methods and doesn't want to know anything about traditional razor sharpening. At the same time, some of the professional razor sharpeners see things that to me just aren't there with some of their stones, and the reality with razors is that:
1) you will never sharpen a razor as keen as a feather DE blade
2) puttering around with all of the natural stones will not make an edge as good and as easily as the pigment powders on balsa

I agree with murray about the stones when it comes to woodworking and kitchen knives, but he's jaded a little bit by dealing with beginners. I think he bet one of the pro honers offering the winner of the bet admission to his three day sharpening course (!!). There are virtues to the fine artificial stones, etc, where they make woodworking more pleasant, but that's probably a good assessment of what they do - they are like writing a letter while you sit in a nice leather desk chair vs. writing one while sitting in a one-piece school desk and chair that's made of tube steel and plywood. The letter still gets written.