Lee Valley quality question from a long time lurker

[Chris R Taylor]

Good afternoon. I have been lurking around this forum for sometime soaking up information (and I thank you all for that by the way) and I finally decided to upgrade my planes. I narrowed my choices down to LV and LN. I went with the LV BU Jack first to see what it was like, and I hoped I would like it because if I did I would follow it up with the BU smoother and BU jointer that share the same irons which is a great bonus in my opinion. The plane showed up and lets just say I was unimpressed. The tote wasn't attached properly and the handle bolts have some major discoloration. The brass adjusting knob is discolored with a greenish tint and the lever cap screw looks a fake yellow. Now the plane functioned great when I gave it a try on some chestnut boards, it has a nice weight and I certainly can try and clean up the parts but I have often heard the phrase "right out of the box" and in this case not so much. As I was holding it I was thinking to myself I just spent good money on this but I don't feel right. I called them, they were nice on the phone, and they are sending out replacement parts. I guess my question is has anybody else had a similar experience or was this just a one time thing where I just pulled the short straw? I do need to order a smoother and jointer but I don't want to open another box where I get the "what is this" feeling.
Please don't take this as a bash towards LV, I have been a faithful customer of theirs for many years and love when the catalog shows up in my mailbox. I am just looking for some reassurance from others who have/haven't been in my shoes. Size 14 by the way.
Thanks,
Chris

[Joey Chavez]

I would call that a one off. I've have 7 different planes from LV among other things and haven't had one issue when opening the box. Get that BU Smooter and Jointer, you'll love it.

[Mike Holbrook]

It sounds like tarnished brass? All brass tarnishes in time but can be restored to a bright shine with a metal polish like Brasso. Could you be seeing tarnished brass?

[Prashun Patel]

I think an occasional 'mistake' is understandable. A testament to their consistency and quality and commitment to customer satisfaction is that they'll usually take things back.

I hesitate to tell you how liberal they are with their return policy for fear that there's a run on their generosity, but suffice it to say that I am 100% convinced they want you to be happy. Give them the benefit of the doubt on this one. If the replacement parts still don't make the tool feel/look right in yr hand, I suggest you give them yr feedback. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Jim Koepke]

Chris,

Welcome to the posting side of the Creek.

This sounds like one of those things that sometimes happens.

No matter how hard a company tries to uphold high standards sometimes something takes place that can not be foreseen.

LV and LN have proven they will stand behind their products and do what is necessary to correct any unforeseen occurrence.

jtk

[Chris Vandiver]

Your experience sounds like a one in a million chance. It's the first negative response to a LV bevel up plane that I've read(except maybe the occasional grousing regarding tote shape). All of the LV bevel up planes are very good tools.

[Jerome Hanby]

The only plane I've purchased from them is a Shoulder Plane, so I can't speak directly about your plane experience. But, on a transaction that involved an item that I'm sure they made much less money on than your plane, they bent over backwards to make it right (and to be fair, it was really more of a shipper induced failure than anything that happened at LV). I think they have certainly earned the chance to make it right for you.

[Peter Pedisich]

Chris,

I purchased the LV LAJ last year. It arrived wrapped in blue plastic, and it was as perfect as a mass produced product can be.
All the brass parts were perfect.
I have returned products to Lee Valley that I felt were sub-par, but never a Veritas product. Although once I did receive a bench pup that was in the package yet had light rust covering most of it, I was not happy, but needed it then so I wire brushed and oiled it and it's been fine since. I chalked it up to maybe the box got wet during delivery.
Of all my planes, including the amazing ECE primus 711, the LV LA Jack is my favorite. If I ever got shipwrecked, that would be the one i'd want. The perfect balance of qualities you want in a plane, except the (to my eyes) ugly lever cap.

Pete

PS - size 14 EE here as well... and only 5'-10"!

[Chris Griggs]

I wouldn't worry. I have never had an issue with an LV plane (I have 4 or 5). Any issue I've ever seen anyone have has been immediately handled. All the company's have one that gets past the goalie every now and again, but LN, LV, and TFWW all stand behind their products like nothing I've ever seen. The only LN plane I own had an issue when I got it (which was handled immeadiatly BTW). Again, I wouldn't worry, it unlikely that you will get another plane that you arn't impressed with and if you do LV will make you happy.

[David Weaver]

Just get it exchanged. I've ordered a lot of stuff from them and had no issues with any of it.

I've seen them go out of their way and support post-purchase tools that I would never support as a retailer, so if they can be accused of anything, it's not doing less than required.

[Curt Putnam]

I now have 7 Veritas planes (yeah, maybe a little brag there) including all 3 of the BU planes that take the same irons. Out of all of that, I've needed one small part that was quickly sent my way - and I did not discover that issue for a year. Rob & co. will bend over backwards to keep you happy. So yeah, I think you ran into a one shot issue there.

[Charlton Wang]

Maybe post some pictures. I have quite a few LV planes including two of the LA jacks and they're all excellent. Like Pete, the LV LA Jack would be the one plane I'd want on an island. And as Curt has stated, LV will bend over backwards to make things right. When I bought the jointer plane, it had a small dent at the front of the sole...I sent some photos to LV and got an exchange without any hassle and I suspect the photos weren't even necessary. In my experience, there is no company that has matched LV for post-sale service---including getting the odd cheque for things I bought where the prices went down.

[Bill White]

Lee Valley? Great. Best cust. svc. ever.
14 EE? GREAT!!!! Did ya get a warrenty with those footsies?
Bil

[Joe Bailey]

Hi Chris,I guess by the time I post this, if your mind's not totally at ease, it never will be. Mine arrived about 15 minutes ago - in perfect shape, but rear handle a tad loose. But consider the following: 1) that delivery truck ride is the harder it'll ever have; 2) it only took me 1/4 turn on each screw to snug it up, and 3) wood moves! - I am constantly making such seasonal adjustments on handles a lot less green than these.Rest easy.now to avoid the "no picture" police ...
227627

[Brian Kent]

If I ever got shipwrecked, that would be the one i'd want.

The plane I want if I am shipwrecked is a Cessna!

[Peter Pedisich]

The plane I want if I am shipwrecked is a Cessna!

I'm married 19 years... I'll take the Veritas.

[Bruce Page]

Chris, this is the exception, not the norm. I have smiled every time I have opened the box on a LV Veritas tool, even with the ones I have bought used.

Lee Valley’s excellent CS will make it right for you.

[Trevor Walsh]

One caveat I reluctantly share it that today's consumers are very very picky, I've heard that some manufacturers lap parts to an incredible degree of flatness, useful enough for machine shop "B" grade setup work (which is your normal type work) and far flatter than one would need for woodwork. Nevermind the practicality of this, they would loose sales if they didn't because everyone is going around testing sole flatness with a dial test indicator, .001" out of flat in a non critical portion of the sole and it's a piece of junk?

I don't mean to tell you to settle for less than your expectations but given the nature of mass production (the plane was built, assembled, packaged and warehoused 6 months ago, 9 months ago, not sure when their last production run would have been) it's not unreasonable for the tote to have shrunk and become looser, or the brass to have tarnished. It would be unreasonable to expect them to unpackage (possibly damage a box and need to replace it) re-inspect and repackage it to ship. That would be an incredible waste of time and labor.

My opinion would be that it's a fluke, grab the Brasso and a screwdriver and tighten everything back up.

[Chris R Taylor]

Thanks for all the positive comments. It may sound strange to ask total strangers for advice but when I asked a couple of my friends about it all I got was "you payed how much for a tool with no power cord?" LV left me a message today telling me they were sending me replacement parts and I should get them soon. I guess I should have posted a picture to help explain what I was talking about so here one...227629 Thats not rust on the bolt, its wood from being improperly wedged into the handle. I had to remove them both before I could reseat the handle. I will update as soon as I get the new parts.

Chris

[Pat Barry]

I tend to disagree with you on two of these points. First, I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect the brass to be perfect. You are paying as much for the fit and finish as you are the function. Next, the packaging can prevent the tarnish and protect the tool. There are plenty of ways to do this and they are cheaper than sending replacement parts. Sitting on the shelf for a week or a year should make no difference. The slight shrink of the wood is another story - why would it shrink? If anything it should expand due to moisture and tighten a bit. They need to put a bit more emphasis on quality given the many comments relating to customer satisfaction with the way they manage the complaint department.

[James Taglienti]

When i buy a new product, i want exactly that. I dont want tarnish or rust or anything. That being said i usually proceed to sweat on, ding, and scratch every new plane that i buy, so they have brown handprints all over them anyway within a week or two.
I just brought a sorta new LV low angle block on an install saturday and used it like crazy, its got scratches and tarnish on it now... Just signs of use.. i dont even bother wiping them down any more, you forget once and its over.

[Pat Barry]

I agree 100%, especially when paying $219 for a tool like that with high expectations for it.

[John McPhail]

Ditto and +1, all 10 ( soon to be 11 ) of mine arrived unflawed and unblemished.

You should exchange that plane IMO. Lee Valley will make it right.


I would call that a one off. I've have 7 different planes from LV among other things and haven't had one issue when opening the box. Get that BU Smooter and Jointer, you'll love it.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

They need to put a bit more emphasis on quality given the many comments relating to customer satisfaction with the way they manage the complaint department.

I don't think that's quite a fair way of making an assessment of their quality control. With any company, you're most likely to hear from the folks who were upset because they got something that wasn't right. If the companies doing a good job, you'll hear from folks who were impressed about the lengths the company went to to make things right, because unfortunately, that makes stands out in this day and age. Should LV get everything perfect? Yeah, if they can, they should. But I don't think there's any way of extrapolating what their QC is like from the sample size of "some people online" said they had problems that LV fixed. What you aren't going to hear is the hundreds (thousands? I honestly don't know!) of people that got a product, felt it delivered what they expected and said nothing of it. Without counting how many angry responses they've had, and then comparing that to the amount of product they've moved, we can't really figure out what their miss rate is, and can't really make a comment.

[Chris Vandiver]

One caveat I reluctantly share it that today's consumers are very very picky, I've heard that some manufacturers lap parts to an incredible degree of flatness, useful enough for machine shop "B" grade setup work (which is your normal type work) and far flatter than one would need for woodwork. Nevermind the practicality of this, they would loose sales if they didn't because everyone is going around testing sole flatness with a dial test indicator, .001" out of flat in a non critical portion of the sole and it's a piece of junk?

I don't mean to tell you to settle for less than your expectations but given the nature of mass production (the plane was built, assembled, packaged and warehoused 6 months ago, 9 months ago, not sure when their last production run would have been) it's not unreasonable for the tote to have shrunk and become looser, or the brass to have tarnished. It would be unreasonable to expect them to unpackage (possibly damage a box and need to replace it) re-inspect and repackage it to ship. That would be an incredible waste of time and labor.

My opinion would be that it's a fluke, grab the Brasso and a screwdriver and tighten everything back up.


I heartily agree!

[Sam Takeuchi]

You should exchange that plane IMO. Lee Valley will make it right.

Exchange that plane? The entire thing just for a couple of parts that can be swapped and replaced in no time? If there were defects that can't be fixed by swapping parts or something obviously wrong, then yeah, having it replaced with functioning and properly produced item is a good idea, but insisting on having the entire thing replaced for something like tarnished brass (replaceable) and badly fitted handle (replaceable) is a bit unreasonable I think. If everyone did that, eventually they'll be swamped with unreasonable replacement requesst and either raise price or drop their customer service standard eventually. It's one thing to expect everything to be "new" and as reasonably perfect as new products can be, but insist on having it replaced for such small issue (and only requires flat head screw driver) is not reasonable. Yeah it's expensive, and it shouldn't be that way, but that doesn't mean customers are entitled to demand anything beyond reasonable.

I love dealing with LV, and I love the service and products I get from them. Because value and experience of "buying" from them is good. I don't want that to go away.

[Chris Vandiver]

Exchange that plane? The entire thing just for a couple of parts that can be swapped and replaced in no time? If there were defects that can't be fixed by swapping parts or something obviously wrong, then yeah, having it replaced with functioning and properly produced item is a good idea, but insisting on having the entire thing replaced for something like tarnished brass (replaceable) and badly fitted handle (replaceable) is a bit unreasonable I think. If everyone did that, eventually they'll be swamped with unreasonable replacement requesst and either raise price or drop their customer service standard eventually. It's one thing to expect everything to be "new" and as reasonably perfect as new products can be, but insist on having it replaced for such small issue (and only requires flat head screw driver) is not reasonable. Yeah it's expensive, and it shouldn't be that way, but that doesn't mean customers are entitled to demand anything beyond reasonable.

I love dealing with LV, and I love the service and products I get from them. Because value and experience of "buying" from them is good. I don't want that to go away.

Sam, you're just saying this because your feet aren't size 14EE!
:)
Or maybe they are.

[Don Dorn]

Frankly, I'm a little torn. When I took delivery of my tablesaw ten years ago, it had a dent in the dust cabinet cover and a fairly small scratch in the cabinet itself. Friends told me to call it in and get it remedied - I didn't based on the thought that I bought a tablesaw, not a car. I've never regretted it and while I probably wouldn't sweat the condition that the OP describes, I respect the fact that others do. My thought is that I'm using it as a tool, but will admit that when buying a new premium product, you have a reasonable expectation to receive it in new condition. Granted, probably easy for me to say as my LVJ arrived as expected.

For me, it's function and at one time bought the Veritas skewed rabbet plane. I couldn't get it to hold the fence position and didn't belive I should have to fight it so I sent it back. Fortunately, well over 95% of what I receive from Lee Valley finds me as a satisfied customer.

[David Flynn]

I have had 2 experiences bringing things back to LV (a very small number given what I have bought, between hardware and tools I don't want to think of the $$.) I brought a product back to LV a approx. a year after I bought it (not a Veritas product.) I wasn't asking for a refund, after all I had no bill and it was a year later, I just wanted to point out to them a problem with the product. I know they keep detailed records of customer comments so I wanted to let them know about my issue. The person on the counter insisted on processing a return, I insisted it wasn't necessary. A bit of a comedy really and the opposite of what you would find in most stores - in the end I consented. Of course, I bought something and put the money and more back into the till. That is the kind of service that guarantees a very loyal customer for life. The other incident was just last week, my wife bought the LV flat bottom spokeshave for me for our anniversary (like the 'Wish List' function!). The blade was a bit too rusty, and there was rust on the bed as well. I could probably have cleaned it, but for a new tool, and a gift, it just didn't feel right. All that happened was someone didn't put quite enough oil on the blade. Again, the person on the counter was very understanding, didn't give even a bit of attitude, brought out a new one and immediately took it out of the box to check it. Sure it was an additional trip, but I don't mind because the person was so nice.

Bottom line - if you aren't happy and it will bother you they will probably be willing to send you a replacement. I think they know that once you buy one of their planes you will buy more - it is almost inevitable. Plus sharpening stones etc.

[Zach England]

I have purchased at least a dozen planes from Lee Valley and the only thing even close to a QC problem I have ever had is that once they sent one with the wrong blade. I e-mailed them and they sent me a new blade and let me keep the old one.

Once I even had an opportunity to buy a "cosmetic second" from them and to this day I cannot figure out why it is a second.

[Justin Green]

I have their scrub plane with the A2 blade and just received their router plane. I've used the snot out of the scrub plane flattening two ugly workbench top glue-ups and it's awesome (jack plane wouldn't have cut it, lol). I haven't tried the router plane yet, but it arrived bright and shiny. I just ordered their moving fillister plane and their small plow plane to make some raised panel doors. Can't wait to try them out.

[Igor Petrenko]

Everything branded Veritas was outstanding. No brand stuff even if it says "Made for Lee Valley" was below average.

[Pat Barry]

I find it interesting that everybody responding has a positive impression of LV (including myself), but from what I gather, nearly half of us have had something wrong with a purchase from them. Most of the issues are minor, granted, but that is a very poor quality record. We love them because they will take things back without putting up a fuss - excellent. Why do they have so many apparent problems and we still love them? The tools look good and they have a good reputation and they work well, all these are great attributes, but its still troubling that they have so many problems. At the rate they are going they won't be in business for long and that will be a sorry day. I for one hope they get their act in order soon.

[McKay Sleight]

$200 bucks for a plane that cuts like the LV and LN is NOT much to spend. Now if it were a $2000 dollar infill I might expect more. The tools are cheap for the quality of tool. I could not be happier.

[Dave Lehnert]

The plane I want if I am shipwrecked is a Cessna!

Now that's plane funny.

[Mike Holbrook]

Brass is going to tarnish, unless it is coated with something to protect it. A coating of wax is not visible on brass so if a couple bolts missed the wax no one would know. Honestly, I have polished many a brass hand saw bolt in the last couple months, it is a very easy thing to do. Anyone using hand tools is going to have this situation on a continuing basis. Get some Never-Dull, fine foam sand pad, Scotch-Bright pads, Brasso or at least one. Then put a little Renaissance Wax on them and they will stay that way quite a while. There are two kinds of brass, tarnished brass and brass that is going to tarnish.

[Chris Griggs]

I find it interesting that everybody responding has a positive impression of LV (including myself), but from what I gather, nearly half of us have had something wrong with a purchase from them. Most of the issues are minor, granted, but that is a very poor quality record. We love them because they will take things back without putting up a fuss - excellent. Why do they have so many apparent problems and we still love them? The tools look good and they have a good reputation and they work well, all these are great attributes, but its still troubling that they have so many problems. At the rate they are going they won't be in business for long and that will be a sorry day. I for one hope they get their act in order soon.

I don't think half the people who posted here said that, and if they did I doubt its indicative of half of all buyers having a problem with an LV product. Even if most people who posted here did say that, keep in mind its a conversation specifically about what to do with an unsatisfactory product so folks who have had similar issues are going to chime in to discuss their experiences when this happened. Not exactly a random sampling. Anyway, not trying to debate your here, just saying that I don't think you need to be concerned. They put a lot of effort into good quality control and which is one of the reasons they don't always release tools as quickly as we would like.

Harbor freight also has a great return policy, but I don't think they share the same status, in terms of a record of quality, in most our eyes for exactly the reasons you described above.

[Chris R Taylor]

Update. UPS just dropped off my box of replacement parts. They even included a pair of snap ring pliers to aide in the replacement. Thats like 'Batteries Included' kind of stuff. The plane now looks like I expected it to look from the beginning. I kind of feel bad I just ordered a plane from LN, of course I am sure that the guilt will ease up once the mailman delivers it.

And just for the record it wasn't any type of tarnish on the brass, there is a discoloration and substance on the parts. One of my first questions was if it was possible if a buffing compound could have been left on but once I forwarded them pictures they didn't believe it was.

[David Weaver]

I find it interesting that everybody responding has a positive impression of LV (including myself), but from what I gather, nearly half of us have had something wrong with a purchase from them. Most of the issues are minor, granted, but that is a very poor quality record. We love them because they will take things back without putting up a fuss - excellent. Why do they have so many apparent problems and we still love them? The tools look good and they have a good reputation and they work well, all these are great attributes, but its still troubling that they have so many problems. At the rate they are going they won't be in business for long and that will be a sorry day. I for one hope they get their act in order soon.

I'd be surprised if half the people here have had a problem with them. I have probably ordered 100 separate (or more) items and not only has everyone been pulled correctly, but every item has arrived in good condition.

They have also provided me with things I wasn't even entitled to, like a tool roll for a set of chisels that I bought all of eventually, but didn't buy as a set (which would have entitled me to the tool roll).

I'd venture to guess that the majority of folks here have not ever had a problem.

[David Weaver]

I kind of feel bad I just ordered a plane from LN, of course I am sure that the guilt will ease up once the mailman delivers it.



Yeah, you'll get over it right quick. No guilt needed, it's sort of like having beer and wine, you have to have a little of both at some point.

[Augusto Orosco]

I find it interesting that everybody responding has a positive impression of LV (including myself), but from what I gather, nearly half of us have had something wrong with a purchase from them. Most of the issues are minor, granted, but that is a very poor quality record. We love them because they will take things back without putting up a fuss - excellent. Why do they have so many apparent problems and we still love them? The tools look good and they have a good reputation and they work well, all these are great attributes, but its still troubling that they have so many problems. At the rate they are going they won't be in business for long and that will be a sorry day. I for one hope they get their act in order soon.

For what is worth, I have ordered 4 times from them, perhaps a total of 20 items. From planes to green honing compound. Everything was perfect from the get go. The only time I ever had to interact with LV's customer service was when I wanted to know what kind of wood was used for the BU Jack's tote I had bought from them a couple of years ago. They emailed me back with the answer in less than 5 minutes.

[john davey]

I have 5 lv planes and love them all. My only customer service call went well and it was not a veritas item.
It was a 7 buck hammer with a loose head. They shipped a second with another loose head. So my thinking is hammers cost more than 7bucks :).

[Trevor Walsh]

Good news, Did they happen to venture a guess as to what may have caused this? Since I suppose evidence points against tarnish of the regular sort.

[Chris Vandiver]

I'd be surprised if half the people here have had a problem with them. I have probably ordered 100 separate (or more) items and not only has everyone been pulled correctly, but every item has arrived in good condition.

They have also provided me with things I wasn't even entitled to, like a tool roll for a set of chisels that I bought all of eventually, but didn't buy as a set (which would have entitled me to the tool roll).

I'd venture to guess that the majority of folks here have not ever had a problem.

I have placed several orders with LV and have never had even the slightest issue. 100% pleased.

[Pat Barry]

If you go back through the comments, and I did, you will see that about half of the comments included statements relating their previous history with problem resolutions at LV.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Maybe LV does have an issue with QC. We've already established some of those returns are of the "above and beyond" genre, which may lend credence that LV finds it financially beneficial to take a small hit on returns in exchange for customer loyalty, which could affect how you use the "returns" metric to rate QC.

I might also guess that many of us have made more orders than the average LV customer, which would potentially open each of us up to more chances at getting the short straw, but I can't prove that. But I imagine there are a lot more woodworkers who own a single LV plane than there folks that own 7 different LV planes, like someone commented here.

Regardless, in the end, I still posit that we don't have enough information to make an assumption of LVs QC, and without at larger, less self-selecting sample size, the assumption that they have a quality control problem seems to be baseless. The best we can truly assume is "maybe they do, maybe they don't."

[Gary Herrmann]

I started ordering from LV about 8 years ago. I've had something missing from an order, but I cannot think of one item that was related to QC. So as someone that can wear your shoes (assuming they're EEs), I think you are the unlucky recipient of a statistical outlier.

[John Powers]

I've never had any problems but my complaint is this. When I go in the Woodcraft in new castle DE, there is a workbench and wood set up in front of about 300 pfeil gouges and you can try them out. You can grab a saw and do the same. I tried out the lee valley space age looking dovetail saw before I bought it there. When I'm in Toronto visiting the kids and go into lee valley on king street everything locked up. Only thing I can figure is those crafty canadians would sue lee valley if they nicked a finger.

[Tim Null]

I have 8 LV planes. Numerous other items. Never had a return. Always in perfect condition. Like was said, responses are usually with a like story.

I would not doubt the quality of the Veritas brand and most of the items stocked by LV.

I run a consulting business. All of my work is checked before it goes out. But a few typos or even errors have gone out. When the client points them out, a new corrected copy is promptly sent with apologies.

I have done over 25,000 evaluations in the last 7 years. I strive for a zero percent error rate, but I am human. My error rate is very, very small. But will never be 0%.

No mistakes makes for easy customer service. It is how you handle mistakes that makes the difference.

[Tim Offutt]

I have bought several planes from LV (so many I don't want it in writing!) and I have never experienced a problem. BUT, I have had LV send me parts for what they described as a "possible issue". I didn't ask for these parts. They just sent them based on comments made by others. Last year I even received a replacement plane to resolve a possible problem. Didn't complain or ask for that one either.

I just received a small envelope with some brass parts last week. I didn't look closely at them, tossed them in the drawer. The plane works perfectly as is and I am quite happy with it.

I have never been unhappy, never contacted LV and they took it upon themselves to rectify what was to me nonexistent problems. That is great customer service and I appreciate it very much. I think they will continue to get my money in the future.....
Tim

[Maurice Ungaro]

Question for Chris, the OP: Rob Lee (head of Lee Valley) is a member here, and posts frequently. He is very approachable, and is dedicated to 1) quality & innovation, and 2) pleasing his customers. Have you tried contacting Rob, and asking him about it?

[Sean Hughto]

Forgive me, as perhaps I just don't understand the perceived shortcomings in this plane. It sounds like it did great actually planing wood. You are upset because you had to turn the handle bolt screws a turn or two to tighten them up and because the heads of some of the brass parts were tarnished? I suppose the customer is always right, but these complaints seem rather picky-oon. Be warned, the iron is going to disappoint you soon as it will require sharpening. ;-)


I've bought literally hundreds of LV products - including several veritas tools - over many many years. Apart from a shipping mix up once or twice (which they made right in no time), I don't remember an issue.

[Rob Lee]

I've never had any problems but my complaint is this. When I go in the Woodcraft in new castle DE, there is a workbench and wood set up in front of about 300 pfeil gouges and you can try them out. You can grab a saw and do the same. I tried out the lee valley space age looking dovetail saw before I bought it there. When I'm in Toronto visiting the kids and go into lee valley on king street everything locked up. Only thing I can figure is those crafty canadians would sue lee valley if they nicked a finger.

Hi -

Actually, the downtown store has a lot of product walk away... which is not typical of any of our other stores.

Sharp things (unfortunately) have to kept under glass for liability reasons. As a "destination" type store, we see a lot of families with kids, and not all kids are watched closely...

Then too, people like to "test" tools on display's, benches, other tools etc... (no one here!) ...

It's a tough call.

Cheers -

Rob

[Chris Griggs]

Forgive me, as perhaps I just don't understand the perceived shortcomings in this plane. It sounds like it did great actually planing wood. You are upset because you had to turn the handle bolt screws a turn or two to tighten them up and because the heads of some of the brass parts were tarnished? I suppose the customer is always right, but these complaints seem rather picky-oon. Be warned, the iron is going to disappoint you soon as it will require sharpening. ;-)


I've bought literally hundreds of LV products - including several veritas tools - over many many years. Apart from a shipping mix up once or twice (which they made right in no time), I don't remember an issue.

Hi Sean, I partially agree with you, but in defense of the OP (perhaps you missed the posts where he clarified) from what he described the handle was actually misdrilled so he couldn't tighten it, and he said the discoloration was something more than just tarnish. Could he have lived with these? Sure. But I don't blame him for wanting them fixed in a new tool - given the details he described I would do the same. If it was just tarnish and a handle in need of tightening I wouldn't think replacement parts would be necessary, but what he described did seem like it actually was due to a mistake in production, packing or shipping, and my guess is that LV was happy to make sure he ultimately got a tool that was up to their standards. Also, he went on to state that LV has already sent him new parts and that he is very satisfied.

[David Weaver]

personally, Rob, I think you guys should set up a shaving station with straight razors so folks can see the difference honing with the different diamond films and CrO films provides.

...that couldn't possibly cause any problems, huh?

Maybe you could get Abdullah the Butcher to endorse the whole setup :)

(and my daughter walks off with things, too, despite the fact that she's only two...retailers who set up shelves at the register to catch the eye of a child should rethink their setups. If she ever leaves with something from one of those shelves, it'll be because we missed that she took it, not because she won us over and had us buy it).

[Rob Lee]

Question for Chris, the OP: Rob Lee (head of Lee Valley) is a member here, and posts frequently. He is very approachable, and is dedicated to 1) quality & innovation, and 2) pleasing his customers. Have you tried contacting Rob, and asking him about it?

Hi -

I can't argue with the impressions people have - and it's a no-win to do so.

I can tell you (as our vendors can) that there are few people who track and control quality to the extent we do. That's over a line of 18,000+ products (all stocked), purchased from more than 1000 vendors, in more than 100 countries. I can also tell you that I do not know of another firm that stands behind what they sell like we do - which includes refunding original postage and return postage, issuing unsolicited refunds, and replacing product without requiring returns.

Yes - stuff happens, and will continue to happen. We employ people - and people make errors. Here are the type of errors we deal with every day...

1) Product age related. This is not a high volume industry - inventory does not turn quickly. Many items will sit for more than a year before they are sold. Wood shrinkage is a huge issue in North America, where we heat a lot more than other countries (driving humidity level to zero). Rust can be a problem too - packing material is often hydroscopic, and can lead to rust over time.. Even 100% inspection on receipt only ensures a condition when you put the item away.

2) Pick/pack errors. This can be a particular issue in peak periods like Christmas, where we hire a lot of seasonal staff.

3) Shipping damage. It's a tough balance between protecting a product between point A and B, and keeping control of shipping costs. The presumption has to be that parcels are handled properly by the carriers - which they by and large are. It only takes one person in the delivery chain to mishandle a parcel, and cause an issue. No one with our range of product type, sizes, and weights can pack for abuse. Virtually every parcel is unique - with so many products, the combinations are endless.

4) Vendor labelling errors - self explanatory.

5) "Invisible" errors - hardness issues, material changes, internal conponent changes. There's no way (at our scale) to inspect for this.

6) Finish changes - big in the hardware area... not every finishing lot is exactly the same.


I can go on... there are literally hundreds of ways things can happen, and we deal with the the ones we can pre-emptively, and the balance when they occur - and I know we do it significantly better than most.

Cheers -

Rob

[Sean Hughto]

Fair enough. As I allowed in my opening sentence of the previous post: maybe there was more to the problems than the original post conveys (i.e., "I don't understand"). If the OP had said misdrilled handle or something more specific than "fake yellow" and such, I agree, I would have completely understood the dissatisfaction. At the end of the day, my preference would have been to post about this episode after the resolution so the headline wouldn't have been a ding of LV's quality, and instead an endorsement of their quickly making right a rare QC oversight.

[Chris Griggs]

Fair enough. As I allowed in my opening sentence of the previous post: maybe there was more to the problems than the original post conveys (i.e., "I don't understand"). If the OP had said misdrilled handle or something more specific than "fake yellow" and such, I agree, I would have completely understood the dissatisfaction. At the end of the day, my preference would have been to post about this episode after the resolution so the headline wouldn't have been a ding of LV's quality, and instead an endorsement of their quickly making right a rare QC oversight.

Can't argue with that on any front. FWIW when I first read the original post I had the same "am I missing something/whats the big deal" reaction as you, which is one of the reasons I responded with the details.

[Shaun Mahood]

Honestly, the posts about problems related to Lee Valley products (and the resolution) have made them the bar by which I now measure every interaction with any store or business. I don't have to worry about any of the shipping problems as I work right near one of the retail stores, which I have had only wonderful experiences with.

I'm now disappointed by basically every other company I deal with, both at work and home.

[Chris R Taylor]

Pretty sure when I stated in my opening thread to not take this as a bash against LV I meant it as don't take this as a bash against LV. Thought I was pretty clear. And since you think its so wrong for somebody to feel that a plane and irons that cost that much should actually look like they cost that much I would happily forward my credit card bill so you could pay it for me. I paid extra for for special irons that never need sharpening, they cut through tin cans, shoes and still slice tomatoes so thin you can see through them.

[David Weaver]

>> I paid extra for for special irons that never need sharpening, they cut through tin cans, shoes and still slice tomatoes so thin you can see through them.<<

Are you sure your name isn't chef tony?

[Chris Griggs]

Pretty sure when I stated in my opening thread to not take this as a bash against LV I meant it as don't take this as a bash against LV. Thought I was pretty clear. And since you think its so wrong for somebody to feel that a plane and irons that cost that much should actually look like they cost that much I would happily forward my credit card bill so you could pay it for me. I paid extra for for special irons that never need sharpening, they cut through tin cans, shoes and still slice tomatoes so thin you can see through them.

I don't think your original post came across as a bash at all, and you were very clear about that. I think to some folks it just wasn't clear at first specifically what was wrong. Things we write on forums don't always come across in the way or as clearly as we think when we are writing them. You cleared it up later on when you posted the pics, but its not uncommon for someone (and I'm guilty of this) just to read the original post and then post a response, which is likely why you got some skepticism. Remember also, as you read peoples responses they don't always have to do with the original post - sometimes these threads take on a life of there own and people start debating principles and hypotheticals. Anyway, I'm glad you got it all sorted out.

BTW I gotta ask, earlier you said your ordered an LN plane too. What did you order?

[Sean Hughto]

Well you may have typed that sentence about not being a bash, but:

- the title was "quality question" - i.e., the nature of your post is to question LV's quality
- you said "lets just say I was unimpressed" with LV's product
- you said "I have often heard the phrase 'right out of the box' and in this case not so much"
- you said "I do need to order a smoother and jointer but I don't want to open another box where I get the 'what is this' feeling"

So, if I say a string of negative things about you or your work, is it all good if I throw in a statement at the end that "I don't mean it as a bash?"

[bob blakeborough]

I've never had any problems but my complaint is this. When I go in the Woodcraft in new castle DE, there is a workbench and wood set up in front of about 300 pfeil gouges and you can try them out. You can grab a saw and do the same. I tried out the lee valley space age looking dovetail saw before I bought it there. When I'm in Toronto visiting the kids and go into lee valley on king street everything locked up. Only thing I can figure is those crafty canadians would sue lee valley if they nicked a finger.

I have asked to try planes in house and they always let me... Never once have I been refused. They are actually really good about that!

[Chris R Taylor]

I also said "it has a nice weight and I certainly can try and clean up the parts" before I said "but I have often heard the phrase "right out of the box" and in this case not so much."
"I called them, they were nice on the phone, and they are sending out replacement parts."
"I guess my question is has anybody else had a similar experience or was this just a one time thing where I just pulled the short straw?"
"I have been a faithful customer of theirs for many years and love when the catalog shows up in my mailbox."

So I guess those don't count, just the one at the end?

Its conversations like this that make me wonder why I ever post anything on a forum.

[Chris Vandiver]

Fair enough. As I allowed in my opening sentence of the previous post: maybe there was more to the problems than the original post conveys (i.e., "I don't understand"). If the OP had said misdrilled handle or something more specific than "fake yellow" and such, I agree, I would have completely understood the dissatisfaction. At the end of the day, my preference would have been to post about this episode after the resolution so the headline wouldn't have been a ding of LV's quality, and instead an endorsement of their quickly making right a rare QC oversight.

I have to completely agree with Sean here. It seemed like the OP was trying to bash LV or was at the very least in troll mode.

[Sean Hughto]

For woodworkers who especially value working with hand tools there is a relatively small community of really good organizations that serve and suppoort us - that are responsive to us. Lee Valley is a big one. I suppose I'm over sensitive to see that they are not treated unfairly on the Internet. I want them as healthy as possible for my own selfish reasons. But please don't stop posting on my account.

Make something good this weekend.

Peace.

[Will Blick]

First, I think you made a wise choice.... the ability to interchange the blades is a very nice and cost effective feature. I really like LN planes as well, but they don't share this versatility, hence my extensive line-up of LV planes, and maybe a handful of LN planes.

I am curious why you did not call LV first, and then post your entire story vs. posting here first? This forum can't solve your issues, but LV certainly can. If you have bee lurking, you know LV's reputation, as well as Robs participation on these forums. I would think that would have been a more complete picture of your experience. I think LV has been more than fair with the few issues I have had buying from them through the years. I couldn't imagine them not making you happy with a phone call.

Rob made a very nice post about what its like to run such a large business with such a huge inventory of specialty products, with nearly all of them almost always in stock and ready to ship. AT some point, QC can become to obsessive and prices will be raised. As Rob mentioned, this is a balancing act. Anyway, I sure hope you work out your problem, and can be happy with your purchase, then, like all of us, move on to more hand planes!

As a matter of note.... while some people are overwhelmed at the price tags of LV planes, I can only agree, but in the opposite manner. I marvel how LV can build such a high quality product, with N. American labor costs, package it well, market it magnificently on-line and in catalogs (all this cost$), and sell it for the price they do. The reason is obvious, the same company is designing, prototyping, building, and marketing the product. Of course, the same is true with LN, except they have more 3rd party re sellers, but in the case of planes, re-sellers must take on limited profit margin to hold the planes pricing. Regardless, considering the low volume of these products, I feel the price vs. product quality ratio is EXCEPTIONAL!

[Ron Kellison]

I've been a customer of Lee Valley since the late 70s and I've returned a total of 1 product over that period because I wasn't happy with the quality. I will also state that I've worked for LV at least 4 or possibly 5 times over that period, usually between consulting gigs. I just love handling tools and it's a great way to satisfy my tool lust! I suspect I've handled damn near every product introduced over the past 20 years. a lot of them ended up in my shop and I use them daily. My advice to anyone who thinks they have a problem would be to contact Customer Service. These folks are competent, courteous and generally knowledgeable with respect to the products. Give them a try first before bringing up an issue on a forum. LV staff have definitely sipped the Kool-Aid about product quality and customer satisfaction and they will go the extra mile to make sure the customer is happy. If you don't get satisfaction then go "public".

Regards,

Ron

[ian maybury]

I've a fairly decent selection of LV bevel up planes too, plus lots of other stuff they have supplied - trans-Atlantic in my case.

Their quality is excellent in my view, and in addition their service is remarkable. To the point where they are one of the very few (maybe 2) largish suppliers that I actually look forward to dealing with. I also enjoy the fact that while they do stuff at differing price points, the bottom line is generally that if they offer something it's of more than acceptable quality - there's none of the concern that arises with many others where in these days of poorly made stuff there's often a risk of buying junk that won't do the job it's meant to.

It's hardly a big deal whether they provide parts or a replacement tool if as seems likely the problem is fully resolved - and there's certainly based on their performance no reason to 'stick it to' them...

ian

[Pat Barry]

Rob, you are probably right in it being a no win situation. We appreciate what you do to resolve issues after the fact. My point is that this costs you 10 to 20 times the cost of getting it right the first time. I suppose that your company is actively working with your suppliers to ensure quality and that is the right thing to do but certainly not easy. Its just that customers expect quality and they expect you to deliver it. Keep up your efforts proactively and push the requirement for quality back to your suppliers. Insist that they understand that your customers expect more these days. Thanks.

[David Weaver]

Insist that they understand that your customers expect more these days. Thanks.

Most of us don't (as evidenced by the comments here, most of the people are perfectly fine with the lever of service and accuracy). Most of us understand that the cost of perfection in routine tasks isn't worth it. Getting very close (as they do) is 99.9% as convenient and half as expensive.

To expect that you can hire seasonal labor (or any labor) and still achieve perfection in human-involved tasks takes complete detachment from reality.

If I had an error rate in the tenths of a percent or whatever it is, and I had customers lecturing me about how it needed to be perfect, I would let them shop somewhere else.

[John Shuk]

The plane I want if I am shipwrecked is a Cessna!
Now that right there is funny!