It pays to shop around.

[John Gregory]

I try to buy local anytime that I can. I try buy things made in the USA whenever I can.Speaking to buying local.Whenever I find something of interest to me on Craig's list or other local online classifieds, I do a price comparison. I found a new Sorby roughing gouge on CL for $80. Then searched Amazon and found it new, for $88.95. No sales tax, free shipping. I would opt for the ease of buying from Amazon over Craig's list for the $8.95. Rather than drive 80 miles round trip to meet the seller, etc.I had recently looked at them at our Woodcraft store, but could not recall the price. So I looked it up. $119.99 plus tax, $128.21 out the door! A difference of $39.26! I am a bit disappointed in the prices at Woodcraft. In this internet world merchants need to be more price competitive. 227602227603

[Chris Hedges]

Without stores like Woodcraft, where could you go to actually put your hands on it? Keep in mind that Woodcraft has to actually pay the people who teach you what these tools are for. Not a lot we can do about the sales tax, but when your driving down the road and blowing out tires due to excessive potholes, keep in mind how much you bought without paying sales tax.

[Eric DeSilva]

I used to be a huge supporter of brick & mortar stores for precisely the reason you cite--the ability to touch the products and get expert advice. But more and more, my mindset is shifting. I'll note at the outset that this isn't a commentary about WC, but more generally about brick & mortar v. internet...

The way that I shop, I tend to do a lot on on line research and be pretty settled about what I want before I walk into a store. To the extent that I have questions, they seem to fall into two categories these days. First, questions about where to find something in a store physically, either because they layout isn't self-evident (I can't find your widgets with the other widget-like objects in aisle 3) or because where it is supposed to be it isn't (do you have your full stock of widgets on the shelf or are you hiding more in the stock room). Those questions don't count because if the store had a "search" function, it wouldn't be needed. Second, questions that are informed by my on line research that seem to be beyond the level that store clerks--even those purportedly experts--can answer (do you know if the holes in the widget are metric or standard, because I want to make sure it is compatible with my other widget). In neither case do I seem to get a lot of benefit from in store personnel. In big box stores, sales personnel are useless minimum wage, zero-training flunkies. In specialty stores, it seems like it is hit-and-miss anyway--I walk away from sales people wondering if they just work there to get a discount.

If I discount in-store experience and expertise, all I'm left with is the ability to put my hands on something. But most on-line retailers have pretty good return policies. I can print a return label from my computer, slap it on the same box it came it, and leave it on my porch for the mail guy to pick up. No muss, no fuss, no complexity. I really want to support small, specialty retailers. But I'm having a hard time doing that. Heck, half the time I want something, it isn't even in stock. So they go to their website to get it shipped to their store. And then I have to go back to the store. I find the brick and mortar case less and less compelling.

PS. You'll note, for the record, that I didn't mention price. While price is a factor, I'd actually typically pay a small premium for expertise. But the problem is that I don't seem to be needing expertise anymore, or not getting the level of expertise I need.

[Steve Meliza]

I completely agree with Eric except that I still tend to be sensitive to the price and don't like to over pay by very much if at all.

My buying at local brick and mortar stores general falls into three categories:
1) I need something in the next few days and can't wait a week for it to be shipped (eg. poor planning and ran out of screws)
2) Too large (eg. lumber)
3) There is no price difference (including shipping costs, but ignoring sales tax as we don't have one here) or there is a sale or coupon that makes the local store competitive.

[Matt Day]

I tend to agree with you Eric, especially regarding the amount of online research most of us do before a purchase. I am however thankful to have a local WC for it's convenience and same-day purchases - I am happy to pay a premium if for instance last weekend I needed a couple dust collection fittings and wanted to finish it that weekend. They also of course have classes that seem to always be booked up that are good ways to teach new ww'ers, and of course hopefully boost some sales for them.

Speaking about strictly woodworking stores, I think it's possible to research online and purchase online for most equipment/tools/supplies. But of course that research takes a lot of time (=money), so using the expertise of a B&M can offset that.

I used to work in a small privately owned bicycle shop for a number of years back in college. We were known for usually having the highest pricing in town and not having big blowout sunday sunday sunday sales. But we were also known for having the best mechanics, best bike fitting service, and most knowledgeable staff. That is what kept and keeps the shop running. But there was nothing that pissed us off more than a person that spent hours and hours of our time, that would go and buy online or from the guy down the street who sold the same bike for less. Then they'd have the nerve to bring it to us for warranty service! We'd always do our best to keep a smile and make them happy, then vent to each other as soon as they walked out the door. After working in that shop, I have a much better appreciation for supporting local businesses when they have good Customer Service and something to offer me that I can't get online.

[Chris Hedges]

But we were also known for having the best mechanics, best bike fitting service, and most knowledgeable staff. That is what kept and keeps the shop running. But there was nothing that pissed us off more than a person that spent hours and hours of our time, that would go and buy online or from the guy down the street who sold the same bike for less. Then they'd have the nerve to bring it to us for warranty service! We'd always do our best to keep a smile and make them happy, then vent to each other as soon as they walked out the door. After working in that shop, I have a much better appreciation for supporting local businesses when they have good Customer Service and something to offer me that I can't get online.

Amen!!!!!!!!!!

[John Gregory]

I too am willing to pay a little more for the benefits of a local store. But on the Sorby example, that little bit more is 44%. I cannot justify that on my budget.

[Kirk Poore]

You can't tell if something is a piece of junk from an internet photo. If it's something that I want to last, I'll go to Woodcraft or Rockler and look at it in person. Not that Woodcraft and Rockler don't stock some junk--they do. It's just that every gouge looks alike until you hold it in your hands. Some internet retailers--Lee Valley, for example--stock some very good stuff and I will take a chance with them. And some stuff you can't buy locally. But if I want it to last a decade or two, the local premium isn't too much to ask.

Kirk

[John Gregory]

The Sorby gouge is sold by Hartville tools, A new Sorby is a new Sorby at any retailer.

I do agree about being careful when buying used. One needs to compare apples to apples.



You can't tell if something is a piece of junk from an internet photo. If it's something that I want to last, I'll go to Woodcraft or Rockler and look at it in person. Not that Woodcraft and Rockler don't stock some junk--they do. It's just that every gouge looks alike until you hold it in your hands. Some internet retailers--Lee Valley, for example--stock some very good stuff and I will take a chance with them. And some stuff you can't buy locally. But if I want it to last a decade or two, the local premium isn't too much to ask.

Kirk

[Kevin W Johnson]

We all have to remember that there is a big difference in business models between etailers and retailers. Etailers generally have lower overhead and a nearly unlimited customer base. Retailers on the other hand have higher overhead, and a customer base that is limited by the distance people are willing to travel.

While I'm not advocating spending a wild sum more at a local store, we need to support them as much as possible within reason. Rarely is the local guy getting rich because his prices are higher, he just has a lower sales volume and higher overhead. It's also likely that his cost is what you can buy it for online, I know this first hand, although computer components related. Supporting local businesses helps us ALL. Chances are the people in the local stores directly or indirectly support your income. I can't in good conscience throw the small local guy "under the bus" for $5 difference. Large B&M's are another matter though, they buy with volume discounts that allow them greater margins and I certainly price shop them.

Now, I do agree that the prices at Woodcraft are getting out of hand. I'm not sure what's up with that, I might try and talk to one of the guys I deal with in there all the time and see what he'll tell me. I know corporate sets the prices, it's just a question of why they are setting them so high lately.

[Mike Heidrick]

I would rather buy from guys here and WN than most local B&Ms. I have learned way more from here and WN than any Woodcraft.

[Kevin W Johnson]

I would rather buy from guys here and WN than most local B&Ms.

That's perfectly fine, if you don't mind waiting for what could be years for something to become available.

[John Gregory]

While I'm not advocating spending a wild sum more at a local store, we need to support them as much as possible within reason.


I agree, it is about value. And a reasonable cost for that added value

[Matt Day]

I agree, it is about value. And a reasonable cost for that added value

John,

I mean, I see what you mean and agree. I wouldn't spend an extra $40 at a B&M for the same turning tool either for something that costs $90 online, especially if I didn't even go to the store to put my hands on it.

I agree they should try to be as competitive as they can in the B&M with online, otherwise most people are going to always bring their business to the internet. Personally, if it's a difference of 10% or so on my things (not large purchases) I'll pick it up locally.

But of course the B&M have to make a margin on the things they sell or they can't pay their overhead, so they have to make some money on what they sell. If they lowered their prices to compete with online, they'd go out of business very quickly. As one of the guys in the bike shop told me, if you're selling product at a loss you're not going to make up for it by selling it in volume.

It's a tough situation that too many small businesses deal with all the time. I think the best way to deal with it is for the B&M to establish a relationhip with the customer to make them want to buy locally, be creative in marketing/selling, sell only quality products that customers can trust (ala Lee Valley), or sell well made & unique in house products (ala LV & Rockler, & Woodcraft to an extent). I think simply dropping prices is not the answer, as quality of products, quality of staff, and quality of the store itself will go down as well.

[Ryan Mooney]

Actually my initial take home on this was slightly different. What the heck confused Craigslist sellers!?!!? Why do you believe that your tool of unknown history is worth what it was new?

[phil harold]

Hartville tool started out as a hardware store in hartville, Ohio
and still is a brick and mortar store!
I commend their business because they did something other than complain about competing with online stores...

[frank shic]

it is very humorous when people list used tools with OBVIOUS signs of wear on craigslist at above the retail price! do they think we don't know how to use google?!?

[Chris Hedges]

As consumers, how much margin do you feel a seller should make on a product?

Chris

[Eric DeSilva]

Your bike shop example was precisely why I wanted to support local businesses. I used to buy a lot of audiophile gear (now mostly cured of habit)--I used to pay more to support the local guys because they did have a lot of real expertise and because I could actually listen to what I was thinking about buying. (I'd also note that with local exclusive regional distribution, there wasn't much competition in price on the net or otherwise for products). In the cases where on line alternatives were available, I used to really hate the guys that would suck up the sales people's knowledge, then buy on line. A bike store is a good example too, because, as you noted, there you are buying real tuning skill. I also think about local commerce simply as a matter of local economics--I want to support my community, my county, and my state. It is just, for better or worse (probably worse), I'm finding fewer situations where the justifications I used to have still bear out.

[George wilmore]

Not enough people supported the local woodcraft store now I need to travel 2 hrs to the nearest rockler or woodcraft.

[Roger Feeley]

I shop local whenever I can and I would like to add a couple more reasons to do so.

1. My local Woodcraft does a great job of bringing more people into the hobby. I would submit that Amazon doesn't so much. With more people buying tools and materials there are more things available both locally and online. More commerce means savings for me.

2. My local Woodcraft will lend me things because I am a good customer. If I need a veneer press, they have one. That makes up for the slightly higher prices on some things.

3. It's really easy to return stuff to my local Woodcraft. Again, that's partly because I am a good customer and known to them. They know that I wouldn't buy something just to use it once and return it. They also know that I don't return very much because they make sure I get what I want in the first place.

All of this comes from having a good relationship with a merchant. That's something that's rare these days and something that I cherish.

[Phil Thien]

Is it just me or are pricing discrepancies between local/online tightening up?

In this case, the gouge was obviously substantially more at Woodcraft.

But I've been looking at planers like the DeWalts and Makita, and the online prices are within a few bucks of B&M.

[Matt Meiser]

I just bought a Jet 16-32 from my local Woodcraft and paid LESS than online. Same for a Delta drill press. And tonight I ordered a spool of wire for my MIG welder from Amazon and paid $2 MORE than Tractor Supply where I usually buy it but they were out of stock on Sunday.

But I agree on the non-stock situation. Why should I pay you more to order it for me sight unseen, take longer to get it, and have to make a second trip?

[Brent VanFossen]

I often don't find big disparities between the local and online prices.

I buy local when price differences are reasonable. I recognize the local shops have to pay the folks that work there. I buy local when I need to consult with the person there over which product to use or on aspects of specific use. I find my local Rockler folks go out of their way to give me good advice and to make sure I'm happy. I've developed a good relationship there, and to a lesser extent, at the local Woodcraft, and I'm willing to pay for that. The small items that I usually buy aren't really worth my paying shipping for, and they're the same items the shops make their higher margins on anyway. I really don't have big heartburn with paying 20% or 30% more on a $5 or $10 item, because it's not worth my trouble to order it (unless I can lump it in with a larger order). I'll order bigger items online, but I've usually invested a significant amount of my own research time online to justify the purchase. I'm an informed shopper.

There are a lot of specialty items that I don't even know where to shop for locally. The Graingers and McMaster-Carrs and the Horton Brasses have things I can't even get at any price without going online. I have no qualms about ordering from them. I'm not willing to drive around at $4 a gallon looking for something a B&M might have. If their website can tell me they have it locally in stock, I'll try to combine a trip to get it. But I value my time, too. Craigslist? If it's under $50, I won't even call unless I know it's on my way and the photos and descriptions make it clear it is exactly what I want in the condition I'm willing to buy.

[Kevin W Johnson]

As consumers, how much margin do you feel a seller should make on a product?

Chris


Too many variables to answer such an open ended question. What most people don't realize is that the needed margin varies on sales volume, overhead, turn over of inventory, etc.

Personally, I understand the need to make a profit and I'm fine with that. What I don't like is knowing/finding out that stores are making a killing on a given item. I don't think that happens much in small mom & pop businesses, but I feel sure it happens quite a bit in large chain stores.

Also, while many will probably disagree, I feel the value of an item is related to it's cost of manufacture. Take two identical items, one made in USA, the other in China, otherwise exactly the same item in every detail. I feel the one made in USA, paying better wages is worth more than it's cheap labor counterpart. It's kind of an added value thing to me, knowing that the people who made the USA item are making a good wage vs. China's slave labor.

I have friend that had a hobby shop. He said one of his distributors once told him he didn't distribute anything he couldn't make a 1000% on. Trouble is, after that kind of distributor mark-up, there isn't much room left for the small store. Now, think about Walmart buying direct and skipping the distributor....

[Kevin W Johnson]

Is it just me or are pricing discrepancies between local/online tightening up?



I'm sure we'll see more of this as local stores continue to go out of business and the only choice is online purchasing.

[Kevin W Johnson]

But I agree on the non-stock situation. Why should I pay you more to order it for me sight unseen, take longer to get it, and have to make a second trip?

Totally agree here. If the store doesn't have it, so be it. At that point I'll order it myself, it'll ship directly to me.

[frank shic]

i buy most of my woodworking supplies at the local rockler's now after seeing several book stores go out of business presumably from everyone (like me in the past!) glancing at the books and then amazon'ing it although i did get a lot of great tool purchases from them in the past.

[Larry Whitlow]

I have never liked shopping and used to always go to the store and buy something when I needed it. If a big ticket, I would watch for sales, but otherwise would not agonize too much. Now days the potential for big savings forces me to check on-line pricing. But unless a big difference, I will still use the local store. By the way, my nearest Woodcraft is about 12 miles. I liked the place and the helpful people. Sadly I've stopped going to that Woodcraft store because I've made too many trips and found the items I wanted to be out of stock. I still frequent the local Rocklers, which is nearby.

PS: Today I needed some fittings for 2 1/2" dust collector hose. Rocklers didn't what I needed (unless I wanted to use duct tape). Got what I needed at the mom & pop hardware store about 1/4 mile from my house. Love it when that happens.

[John Gregory]

Hartville tool started out as a hardware store in hartville, Ohio
and still is a brick and mortar store!
I commend their business because they did something other than complain about competing with online stores...
Woodcraft is a online store too. Once, I ordered online from Woodcraft.com, I wanted to return part of the order to my local store and they said no. And most of them know me by name. I buy a lot there. I said store credit would be fine, their offer was to ship it back for me to woodcraft.com for free.

[Larry Whitlow]

I have never liked shopping and used to always go to the store and buy something when I needed it. If a big ticket, I would watch for sales, but otherwise would not agonize too much. Now days the potential for big savings forces me to check on-line pricing. But unless a big difference, I will still use the local store. By the way, my nearest Woodcraft is about 12 miles. I liked the place and the helpful people. Sadly I've stopped going to that Woodcraft store because I've made too many trips and found the items I wanted to be out of stock. I still frequent the local Rocklers, which is nearby.

PS: Today I needed some fittings for 2 1/2" dust collector hose. Rocklers didn't what I needed (unless I wanted to use duct tape). Got what I needed at the mom & pop hardware store about 1/4 mile from my house. Love it when that happens.

[ian maybury]

This relates to the Irish (UK inspired) experience, but I think there's more shades to it than the physical store versus the online shop.

I find the long opening hours of the local box/big chain hardware stores useful, but not their hugely uninformed and switched off staff, often patchy restocking/stock control and tendency to go for low quality tools made of bubble gum and opportunist pricing. e.g. their trumpeting low prices while charging a competitive price on a few up front selected larger items, but trying to nail you for the smaller stuff that typically goes with it - my record so far is one of the UK chains that operate here asking €24 for a small sachet of panel pins.

I've had some poor experiences with one or two US chains too whose prices are very competitive, but who try to get it back by charging OTT prices for packaging and shipping.

I much prefer the personal touch in small hardwares, but most here carry only very limited stock, and are increasingly swinging into selling very poor quality tools in a probably futile attempt to compete with the big guys. Against that I've had great service and quality from some of the big US and UK on line stores - guys like Lee valley, Incra, Axminster and so on.

I'll happily pay a little extra for good service and knowledgeable staff. There's on line stores so low on service that if you run into trouble it's next to impossible to contact anybody, but against that really well set up online stores can be a huge pleasure with their really good product information which makes choice from home so much easier (with forums like this providing user feedback) - guys like Lee Valley and Axminster above, but also smaller places like Dieter Schmid in Berlin and Tool for Working Wood in the US.

Maybe in the end it's still down to traditional values like their caring about the customer, getting their sh1t together, knowledgeable staff and so on wherever you go. That after that the differing formats have their pros and cons depending on your needs at the time..

ian

[Jim Matthews]

Woodcraft may not be the best example of a Brick and Mortar storefront, as it is both a franchise (with the resulting upfront cost overlay) and competes with the Online arm of the same company.
They can't possibly compete, on price. If an online retailer has a liberal return policy, they have a distinct advantage. When our nearest Woodcraft went under (the third I have seen), it's CLEARANCE prices
were higher than retail at local competitors.

There's supporting local business, and there's price gouging (on gouges).

FWIW - I buy from here, preferentially, and will ask around if I need something.
I find it much easier to buy another tool, than to find time to use it.

jim
wpt, ma

[Phil Maddox]

I buy 90% of woodworking related items on line. Amazon and Lee Valley mostly. The rest is a combination of big box and maybe 1% Woodcraft - who has a good selection of finishes.

I agree that there is a different business model and therefore different prices but why does that mean we should support them? LV has the best CS around. Amazon has been wonderful to deal with. When I go to Woodcraft, the shelves are a mess, the selection is bad (for the most part) and the prices are ridiculous. The people there are nice but don't know more about what they sell than I do.

I buy most of my home improvement material from a small, local lumber yard rather than HD. Why? Because their wood is better, straighter and generally of higher quality. It also costs a little more. Their trim is better and cheaper than HD. They have fantastic customer service and it makes a difference here. In WWing store, it just doesn't.

I think the B&Ms need to wake up. Give me something for the extra money they charge. Throw me a bone and charge a reasonable price for a piece of lumber. Keep the shelves stocked. Don't waste half the store on hardware that no one wants. Have something interesting.

I wish it were different but to me, it is not.

[John Gregory]

Well said!


Woodcraft may not be the best example of a Brick and Mortar storefront, as it is both a franchise (with the resulting upfront cost overlay) and competes with the Online arm of the same company.
They can't possibly compete, on price. If an online retailer has a liberal return policy, they have a distinct advantage. When our nearest Woodcraft went under (the third I have seen), it's CLEARANCE prices
were higher than retail at local competitors.

There's supporting local business, and there's price gouging (on gouges).

FWIW - I buy from here, preferentially, and will ask around if I need something.
I find it much easier to buy another tool, than to find time to use it.

jim
wpt, ma

[Kevin W Johnson]

Woodcraft is a online store too. Once, I ordered online from Woodcraft.com, I wanted to return part of the order to my local store and they said no. And most of them know me by name. I buy a lot there. I said store credit would be fine, their offer was to ship it back for me to woodcraft.com for free.

What were you trying return? What was the cost of it?

I will say that I can understand why they didn't want to take the return. With the exception of a couple corporate stores (Roanoke, Va. being one), the stores are franchised. When you order online, it's through Woodcraft corporate. Woodcraft corporate got paid for that item, and made the profit on it. When you try to return it to a franchise, the franchise would essentially be paying the retail price for that item by refunding the retail price to you.

Now, if it were something small, inexpensive, I'd say it would be smart to do it anyway for a frequent customer unless that person started making a habit of it.

[Larry Whitlow]

There have been a few harsh comments about the quality of staff at the big box stores. I know it is popular to bash the big box stores, but my experience is a little different. At my local HD, it is common to deal with folks who have experience in the trades. The staff in general, skilled and unskilled, are very helpful. I will admit this is a change from how things were not too many years ago. I give a lot of credit to the the local store managment. I realize that HD is not a specialized woodworking store. I take it for what it is and use it appropriately.

[Jim Matthews]

HD sells Sorby?

When did the OP mention a BORG store?

[Larry Whitlow]

HD sells Sorby?

When did the OP mention a BORG store?

HD does not sell Sorby and Op didn't mention any BORG store. I was referring to one or two of the replies.