Rob Lee ... Where for art thou?

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

:)

I keep hearing talk of a new line of Veritas chisels; urban myth? Or is there some solid info that they are forthcoming?

If so ..... When?

[Salem Ganzhorn]

+1
It feels like I have been holding off buying new chisels for a year :).
Salem

[Rob Lee]

:)

I keep hearing talk of a new line of Veritas chisels; urban myth? Or is there some solid info that they are forthcoming?

If so ..... When?

Got the first set sitting on my desk, in pristine packaging - given to me yesterday afternoon. We're still waiting on more handles to build our inventory for release.

These are the O1 versions.... our first order of PM-V11 arrived about a week ago, so those will take a few more months to do. I'm on the fence about releasing the O1's without having a better grasp on cost/availability of the PM steel chisels... just so y'all will have full information to make a decision.

Chisels (http://www.leevalley.com/home/temprl/chisels2.jpg)

Really hate to mess up the labels by opening 'em..... :)

Cheers -

Rob

[David Weaver]

I'm on the fence about releasing the O1's without having a better grasp on cost/availability of the PM steel chisels... just so y'all will have full information to make a decision.



I know what your backup plan can be...just tell everyone they can start with the O1 and sell them on the S&S for 85% of initial tag price when they want to get the powder metal versions. Then it doesn't matter what the price of the PM chisels is vs. O1. ;)

[Shaun Mahood]

Rob, I can't seem to load that image. Talk about a tease!

[Rob Lee]

Rob, I can't seem to load that image. Talk about a tease!

Hi Shaun -

The link seems to work here...

If you really want a tease, I'm headed to our Distribution Center in a few hours to select the wooden planes for the the Edmonton store sale.... I think we'll take about 1500 or so. Oh yeah, some antique saws, braces, and steel planes too....

But don't tell anyone....we haven't. :) :)

Cheers -

Rob

[Chris Griggs]

So Rob is that desk of yours solid wood or termite barf? - if its solid wood it sure must be tough not to try out new tools on it. If you expand the picture are there chisel and plane marks all over it? I know that when I get a new tool at the office I often get pretty temped to go to work on the fake plasticy wood that is my desk.

[Mike Holbrook]

Those are beauties! Interesting handles. Not socketed either, another distinguishing feature vs what I think the main competition will be. I hope they will be available individually, looks like individual wrapping, as I just bought a set. I still need a few larger sizes though.

[Rob Lee]

Those are beauties! Interesting handles. Not socketed either, another distinguishing feature vs what I think the main competition will be. I hope they will be available individually as I just bought a set. I still need a few larger sizes though.

Hi Mike -

Kinda like a Japanese Chisel - the Tapered ferrule bears directly on the shoulders of the blade.

Chris - that's my termite barf round meeting table.... my termite barf desk (30 years old) does have edges that are a tad chewed...

Cheers -

Rob

[Shaun Mahood]

If you really want a tease, I'm headed to our Distribution Center in a few hours to select the wooden planes for the the Edmonton store sale.... I think we'll take about 1500 or so. Oh yeah, some antique saws, braces, and steel planes too....


Rob, the link seems to work now for me too. Nice looking chisels!

If you want to keep your trip to Edmonton quiet, that's fine by me. My only worry is deciding which of those wonderful old tools I "need" the most. Thanks for choosing us!

[Richard Verwoest]

Nice indeed. Any new info/pictures of the up coming mortise chisels?

Cheers,

Hoss

[Eugenio Musto]

Rob,just out of curiosity why don't you use the "traditional" Veritas bubinga for the handles?
P.S. where's the tenon saw:D?

[john davey]

+1 on the tenon saw. God we are a needy bunch arn't we :)

[Curt Putnam]

Rob, I really hope your inventory fills up quickly because quality chisels are the next thing on my to buy list. I'll be into serious chopping in a few more months. Hopefully my needs and the PM-V11 versions readiness will coincide.

[Rob Lee]

Rob,just out of curiosity why don't you use the "traditional" Veritas bubinga for the handles?
P.S. where's the tenon saw:D?

Hi Eugenio -

We're trying to use more domestic woods in newer lines. Eventually, we'll be bringing more of that capability in house, which will give us more control over production, and enable a greater range of product.

Tenon saw.... we're still tuning that process... this type of molding process (and material) is very new - which means lots of trial and error cycles. My last schedule shows May... but I still haven't seen a saw yet...

Cheers -

Rob

[David Weaver]

this type of molding process (and material) is very new

I wonder if it could be moulded into other things down the road, like moulding planes...

[Trevor Walsh]

Or sanding fids.

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

Really hate to mess up the labels by opening 'em..... :)

Cheers -

Rob

Just ship them to me Rob ... I have no PROBLEM messing up the label!! :D

Thanks for the info. Look forward to ordering some.

Best,

Jeff

[Gary Herrmann]

Chisels? Where and what is the next plane, Rob? Larger plow plane maybe?


Gary, drumming fingers...

[Jim Matthews]

Chris - that's my termite barf round meeting table.... my termite barf desk (30 years old) does have edges that are a tad chewed...Rob

I never trust an office with pristine furniture - all that lucite, the flashing lights, the sharks with lazers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh7bYNAHXxw) on their heads in the tank below...
Not that I have anything against sea bass in an idea session, mind you.

[Jack Curtis]

Kinda like a Japanese Chisel - the Tapered ferrule bears directly on the shoulders of the blade....

Any chance you'll be selling those ferrules separately?

[Jim R Edwards]

It would be really nice to see a picture of the new rabbeting plane!

[Will Boulware]

Wow! Demanding bunch here! Quite fussy, some of them.... :p But if you get a chance, please keep us updated on these new saws/chisels/planes, and if you ever manage to perfect those "circular-shaped tuit's" everyone can't seem to get, I'd like to be the first to know! :D

[Steven Lee, NC]

I'm confused, I thought I read in another post that PM-V11 was a method of making O1/A2 steel. Of course I can't find it anymore :p


Or is there going to be an O1 line and a separate PM-V11 line?



These are the O1 versions.... our first order of PM-V11 arrived about a week ago, so those will take a few more months to do. I'm on the fence about releasing the O1's without having a better grasp on cost/availability of the PM steel chisels... just so y'all will have full information to make a decision.

[Chris Griggs]

Or is there going to be an O1 line and a separate PM-V11 line?

That's my understanding. Plus butt chisels and mortise chisels at some point. That's all based on previous forum discussions though so I may be wrong.

[Rob Lee]

I'm confused, I thought I read in another post that PM-V11 was a method of making O1/A2 steel. Of course I can't find it anymore :p


Or is there going to be an O1 line and a separate PM-V11 line?

Hi Steven -

PM-V11 is a new steel, and will be a second (more expensive!) option. Since the lead time on the steel is about six months, production of the PM-V11 versions will lag that of the O1 (by a few months)...

Butt and Mortise chisels will follow, as well as specialty tools....

Plane blades too (in PM-V11 - they should only be 8-10 weeks).

Cheers -

Rob

[Igor Petrenko]

+1 on larger plough/rabbeting.
releasing new chisels after I got full narex set from you is not fare :(

[Rob Lee]

+1 on larger plough/rabbeting.
releasing new chisels after I got full narex set from you is not fare :(

Hi Igor -

Progress happens... :)

I have a set of the Narex myself - an excellent buy (ok - I actually have two sets - paid for both too!).

The LA Bench Rabbet is headed for production now... should be late summer. Since 99% of our staff hadn't seen the chisels before I posted the shot here, I don't think I can get away with posting the LA Rabbet ..... gotta save something for later!

Cheers -

Rob

[Jerome Hanby]

I'm sure you're just playing, but if not, I bet you can get someone here to buy them off of you. If I didn't already have the bench, mortise, and skew chisels, I'd be interested.


+1 on larger plough/rabbeting.
releasing new chisels after I got full narex set from you is not fare :(

[Tony Shea]

I def was surprised to see that picture posted Rob. That's pretty good of you to post up a pic of a product that isn;t even available to us yet, although that may be considered a tease, I still appreciate it.

And I understand we are a needy bunch, but man let the man get some credit for one item at a time. Just the pics of the chisels is enough. He'll tell us when other products are coming out when he can, no need to bombard (spell?) the guy.


Hi Igor -

Progress happens... :)

I have a set of the Narex myself - an excellent buy (ok - I actually have two sets - paid for both too!).

The LA Bench Rabbet is headed for production now... should be late summer. Since 99% of our staff hadn't seen the chisels before I posted the shot here, I don't think I can get away with posting the LA Rabbet ..... gotta save something for later!

Cheers -

Rob

[Steve Friedman]

And I understand we are a needy bunch, but man let the man get some credit for one item at a time. Just the pics of the chisels is enough. He'll tell us when other products are coming out when he can, no need to bombard (spell?) the guy.

Don't be fooled. Rob is the wizard and knows how to play with us. The sad part is that I think we enjoy the game more than he does. We're like Pavlov's dogs - he posts a picture of some chisels and we all start salivating. I'm just hoping the chisels come out before March 26.

Steve

[Jim Matthews]

We're like Pavlov's dogs - he posts a picture of some chisels and we all start salivating.

You mean Economaki and his tool porn.
He sells out a limited edition and maybe they make sawdust.
Most of his stuff just gets polished with a diaper...

[Justin Green]

We're like Pavlov's dogs - he posts a picture of some chisels and we all start salivating.

Guilty, your honor. Though Ian not short of chisels, having a new set would let me take some of my lesser chisels and turn them into skews.

[Jim R Edwards]

Thanks for the information concerning the LA rabbet plane. I have been holding onto gift cards to buy one but since it will be late summer I think I may take advantage of the free shipping and get something else.

[Bob Rankin]

Will there be a 1/8th size chisel?

[Will Blick]

Rob, gorgeous chisels....
Can you explain the benefits of this new PM metal for planes and chisels? I assume they either get sharper, or hold their edge longer, or both? It must be quite radical advancement for you to offer this vs. your same two metal types. Also, how is the PM sharpened, same stones as for A2 ? Sure hope so, have a big investment in Shapton stones.... which work well with A2. thx

[Ryan Baker]

The cryo-treated powdered metals hold an edge for a really long time, though they generally can't get as sharp. They tend to have a micro-jagged edge left due to the grain size of the metal. It will be interesting to see what Rob's new formula is like. You should be able to sharpen them just fine with regular stones, though it might take a bit more effort.

[Jack Curtis]

The cryo-treated powdered metals hold an edge for a really long time, though they generally can't get as sharp. They tend to have a micro-jagged edge left due to the grain size of the metal. It will be interesting to see what Rob's new formula is like. You should be able to sharpen them just fine with regular stones, though it might take a bit more effort.

Makes me wonder whether if O1 steel is not fully sharpened would O1 chisels hold that edge for as long.

[Rob Lee]

Rob, gorgeous chisels....
Can you explain the benefits of this new PM metal for planes and chisels? I assume they either get sharper, or hold their edge longer, or both? It must be quite radical advancement for you to offer this vs. your same two metal types. Also, how is the PM sharpened, same stones as for A2 ? Sure hope so, have a big investment in Shapton stones.... which work well with A2. thx

Hi Will -

PM steels are manufactured using a different (and much more expensive) method than smelted steels. Essentially, the steel constituents are first produced as a fine powder, the powders are "perfectly" mixed, and the fused under heat and pressure... yielding a more homogenous steel with different characteristics. Alloys like A2 can also be produced using the PM process. The PM process also allows the manufacture of steels where the the constiuents don't mix as well when molten, or seperate or clump when solidifying (analogy - kinda like mixing oil and water - you can get a pretty good mixture, but mixing powdered solids of both would give you a better mixture than freezing the liquid mix).

We evaluted a lot steels - focusing on sharpenability, impact resistance, and wear resistance. PM-V11 was the clear winner in our testing, and sharpens with the same regimen that would work for A2. It will take a finer edge, and hold it longer than conventional A2 steels, exhibiting better impact resistance and reduced wear. In plane blades, you can expect a PM-V11 to last at least twice as long as an A2 edge. Maybe not a big deal if you work in pine and cherry, but certainly a big deal if you're working more abrasive silaceous woods.

It's another good choice in addition to O1, and A2...

Cheers -

Rob

[Will Blick]

Rob, as always, great post.... thx..... this was a concise recap of the provided link above....

Very impressive how you are advancing the technology of ww, your passion is infectious....

you wrote.... but certainly a big deal if you're working more abrasive silaceous woods.

since you have already gone thought these experiments....can you list some of the more common exotics (or silacious) woods that will benefit from this new metal?

Also, what is approx. price of new plane blade vs. A2? 1.5x, 2x? ballpark will do for now... thx

[Jim Koepke]

Also, what is approx. price of new plane blade vs. A2? 1.5x, 2x? ballpark will do for now... thx

My experience with ballpark quotes is if my quote is $10 to $20, the person will usually try to hold me at $10. It is as if they didn't even hear the to $20.

jtk

[Rob Lee]

Will -

There are lots of abrasive woods - teak being the one that is well known for silica. Perhaps the folks down under could supply a good list - their woods are awfully tough on tools...

Most of our abrasive wear testing was done with MDF, and alot of the impact testing used maple. We're just working on loading the PM-V11 website with test data, photos, methodology, and results... and will have that all up before we release the first PM-V11 products (which will be plane blades).

It's hard for me to guess at the cost just yet, as our steel just came in, and we haven't got any metrics on yield by product yet. PM steels are expensive... and the PM scrap has the same value as regular steel scrap, as all of the cost is in it's fabrication, not the constituents. So.... whatever we make, has to account for what we throw away in scrap, shavings, and swarf....

Something like a chisel - we run bar stock as close to the net shape as possible, to minimise waste.... but there's still a lot of material wasted, and the bigger the chisel, the more waste there is (we turn the tangs down from the bar). Plane blades - we can nest the blanks to minimise waste... but we still need to actually run the products to see what the yield is...

Yeah - that's waffling a bit on the cost, but I'll have a better idea once we've cut some steel....

Cheers -

Rob

[Will Blick]

Jim, I agree, but Rob is wise enuff to know this ....

Rob, thx for nice response.... understood on price. Please let us know when the PM web site is open to the public, you have really peaked my curiosity! I will surely buy some of the initial batch of plane irons... Another reason why the LV system of interchangeable irons is so useful. For us with many A2 or O1 blades, possibly we only need a handful of the PM blades to use on the tougher woods....

[Brandon Craig]

Rob, this is all great information! Lee Valley continues to live up to their reputation of being innovative! I know we're all looking forward to the new PM products, but I was wondering if the plane blades were only for the Veritas line, or if there would be PM blades for the old Stanleys as well.

[Jim R Edwards]

In regards to the new line of chisels I was wondering how long they will be? This second question may be difficult to answer but I am wondering how they are balanced. For example I have Stanley 750's and everlast and I prefer the 750's because they do not feel top heavy. The everlast feel a little too heavy at the top.

[Bob Lang]

I handled prototypes at last year's Woodworking in America, and I was impressed with the balance and the feel of them. I'm not always on the same page as Veritas when it comes to ergonomics, but I think they got the handle shape and balance just right.

Bob Lang

[Derek Cohen]

In regards to the new line of chisels I was wondering how long they will be? This second question may be difficult to answer but I am wondering how they are balanced. For example I have Stanley 750's and everlast and I prefer the 750's because they do not feel top heavy. The everlast feel a little too heavy at the top.

Hi Jim

This is not an answer ... because I only tested prototypes, and this was some time ago now (before WIA). Furthermore, the handles on the chisels I have are Bubinga, and Rob mentioned to me that they were not great examples (although they do look like the production versions in the pictures I have seen). Plus the blades have been worked on since I last saw them ......

... this is a lot like "this is my grandfathers' axe - but I have changed the handle three times and the head once" ...

Anyway, assuming that there is a close relationship is size, the handles of the new chisels should be longer than the #750 of both Stanley and LN, and slightly longer than those of Blue Spruce, my other reference.

In the picture below you will see that the LV handle is the same effective length as my re-handled #750 and a little longer than the BS. I really like this length. Actually, I found it really interesting that LV came up with a handle that compares so closely to the ones I made for myself. So I am biased!

In answer to your quesy about the balance, the balance point for the LV and my #750 was the same.

The chisels are 1" wide, except the BS, which is 3/4".

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/LV Chisel prototypes/Handle2.jpg

I am assuming that the handle still comes with a flat (Rob will tell you that my preference was for without the flat), which just goes to show that there will be so many different preferences, that it is impossible for anyone, even LV, to please all.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rob Lee]

Rob, this is all great information! Lee Valley continues to live up to their reputation of being innovative! I know we're all looking forward to the new PM products, but I was wondering if the plane blades were only for the Veritas line, or if there would be PM blades for the old Stanleys as well.

Hi Brandon -

There will be PM blades for the more common Stanley planes right away, with more following when we get our second run of the steel. Eventually (within a few months) we'll have PM steel as a choice wherever we have A2 now....

Cheers -

Rob

[Rob Lee]

In regards to the new line of chisels I was wondering how long they will be? This second question may be difficult to answer but I am wondering how they are balanced. For example I have Stanley 750's and everlast and I prefer the 750's because they do not feel top heavy. The everlast feel a little too heavy at the top.

Hi Jim -

We worked really hard on balance points with these chisels. Our target was to have the Centre of Gravity at or below the ferrule. Of course - a 1" chisel has much more steel below the ferrule than a 1/4" chisel - so there's only so much latitude in positioning COG, with having very different lengths.

Our initial design, while very robust, was quite handle heavy...:

227999

The present design feels quite "agile"...

Cheers -

Rob

[Rob Lee]

Hi Jim

(snip)
I am assuming that the handle still comes with a flat (Rob will tell you that my preference was for without the flat), which just goes to show that there will be so many different preferences, that it is impossible for anyone, even LV, to please all.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek!

Yes.... they still have a subtle flat...

Cheers -

Rob

[Tony Zaffuto]

Rob,

I surprised you're out and about this morning! Figured you would have been celebrating all night after the thrashing you gave us last night! Are you coming to Harrisburg this weekend?

T.Z.

[Rob Lee]

Rob,

I surprised you're out and about this morning! Figured you would have been celebrating all night after the thrashing you gave us last night! Are you coming to Harrisburg this weekend?

T.Z.

Hi Tony -

We need every point we can get.... nice of you guys to start the rookie..... :)

Nope - will only be there by proxy...we do the fall Harrisburg. Too much risk of snow (seems funny saying that after the weather last week!).

Cheers -

Rob

[Brandon Craig]

Thanks Rob! I was about to buy a couple of irons, but I think I'll hold off and test out the new PM steel irons when they become available.

[Jim R Edwards]

Thank you so much for the visual comparison and thank you Mr. Lee for the additional information concerning the chisels. They look like very nice chisels and I think I will get some when the come out. I read your review on the small plow plane and that was enough to push me over the edge to buy one! I was going back and forth between the skew rabbeting plane and the small plow plane. I have a Record 778 and it works great and my current plow plane is a Stanley 55. It is ok but it feels awkward and its a bit heavy so I am looking forward to the small plow plane!

[bridger berdel]

It's hard for me to guess at the cost just yet, as our steel just came in, and we haven't got any metrics on yield by product yet. PM steels are expensive... and the PM scrap has the same value as regular steel scrap, as all of the cost is in it's fabrication, not the constituents. So.... whatever we make, has to account for what we throw away in scrap, shavings, and swarf....

Something like a chisel - we run bar stock as close to the net shape as possible, to minimise waste.... but there's still a lot of material wasted, and the bigger the chisel, the more waste there is (we turn the tangs down from the bar). Plane blades - we can nest the blanks to minimise waste... but we still need to actually run the products to see what the yield is...



how do these steels weld, or even braze/silver solder? it might be worthwhile to look back at laminated wrought iron tools from the crucible steel days for ways to use this expensive stuff more efficiently.

[David Weaver]

I think I read somewhere that the japanese makers effectively glue soft steel or iron to powder metal. Exactly what glue means, I don't know.

But I don't get the sense that it's the same process as forge welding wrought iron and white (carbon) steel.

[David Posey]

It seems likely that whatever process could be used to attach PM to softer metal would cause you to end up with an iron that is significantly thicker than most modern ones. This might make it difficult to fit into some tools, especially if you are trying to retrofit old Stanleys with this type of iron.

[David Weaver]

I guess it depends on how thick it is.

I bought a blue steel bench plane iron from stu a couple of weeks ago, and I don't know how it's put together, but it's only about as thick as a stock stanley iron (it's laminated).

Works a pearl with the chipbreaker probably fitted and fettled, though, (as does any stock thickness iron, of course). I don't see a reason they couldn't get PM in really thin pieces if they want to, though I don't know if it will be as critical as it would with hardened blue steel.

[Jack Curtis]

What part of PM (powdered metal) don't you guys understand? It could produce as thin a layer as possible. Right?

[Brian Kent]

Rob, when will you be coming out with a mid-sized truck?

[Tony Zaffuto]

What part of PM (powdered metal) don't you guys understand? It could produce as thin a layer as possible. Right?

Depends on how much strength you want in the material. PM, if you were to examine under a microscope, would remind you somewhat of cast iron, as the metal is in extremely fine, powdered form. The process used to consolidate it and sinter (bake) it, will determine ultimate density.

[Jack Curtis]

Depends on how much strength you want in the material. PM, if you were to examine under a microscope, would remind you somewhat of cast iron, as the metal is in extremely fine, powdered form. The process used to consolidate it and sinter (bake) it, will determine ultimate density.

Well, yeah; but my point is that thickness wouldn't be the issue with PM.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Well, yeah; but my point is that thickness wouldn't be the issue with PM.

Not trying to be a smart-azz, but why do you say thickness wouldn't be an issue? I'm trying to understand how metal in powder form, would be processed in such a manner to accomplish this. Would it be formed and then hot-rolled?

[Jack Curtis]

Not trying to be a smart-azz, but why do you say thickness wouldn't be an issue? I'm trying to understand how metal in powder form, would be processed in such a manner to accomplish this. Would it be formed and then hot-rolled?

Because PM can be as thin as needed. I don't know the manufacturing process in any precision; but I do know that PM could be sprayed and controlled precisely. Therefore, thickness would not be a limiting issue.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I'm not aware of any spraying process - are you sure you're not confusing powder metal with powder coating or spray welding? If sprayed, how would you compact the particles?

[Jack Curtis]

I'm not aware of any spraying process - are you sure you're not confusing powder metal with powder coating or spray welding? If sprayed, how would you compact the particles?

I'm not sure of anything in the PM processes, except that the word powder implies extreme granularity. If I'm wrong, well there you go. And I never suggested that spraying would require particle compression.

[Ryan Baker]

I'm not sure of anything in the PM processes, except that the word powder implies extreme granularity. If I'm wrong, well there you go. And I never suggested that spraying would require particle compression.

It's not like spraying powder on a surface. Powdered metal is sintered. High heat and pressure are used to fuse the material together. Powdered metals typically also have very complicated heat-treat and cryo-treat cycles. I don't see any reasonable way to fuse a thin layer of PM to a soft iron base layer, or any particular reason to want to.

[Jack Curtis]

It's not like spraying powder on a surface. Powdered metal is sintered. High heat and pressure are used to fuse the material together. Powdered metals typically also have very complicated heat-treat and cryo-treat cycles. I don't see any reasonable way to fuse a thin layer of PM to a soft iron base layer, or any particular reason to want to.

Well, OK, my wrong.