need chisel help/advice

[Steven Lee, NC]

Sorry, here is another post asking for chisel help.

I was using my chisels this weekend on some red oak and they weren't very happy. I bought an anniversary set from Woodcraft awhile back when I first got into woodworking and had have only recently started using them on wood other than pine or for scraping off dried glue that got onto my work table. :o I basically drilled holes and then used the chisels to pare down the sides. These arent mortises but elongated holes to allow for wood movement when I attach the top. I was pretty suprised to see a slight U in the chisel, basically where it contacted the wood between the holes. I am going to lose alot of metal I think sharpening them again so this is telling me I need better chisels, hehe. I sharpen with my worksharp and before I started was able to shave the end grain on pine if that helps.

I perused the sites and got thoroughly confused. I listed the chisel maker claims below. What ones below do you think can handle chopping dovetails in Bubinga? I figure that will be the hardest wood I can see myself wanting to work with someday so if it can handle Bubinga, it can handle anything else I will probably see.


MHG
German Chrome Vanadium steel and are hardened to a Rockwell hardness (Rc) of 61.

sorby
The blades are forged from a special alloy Sheffield steel that has a perfect balance of toughness, edge retention, and sharpness.

two cherries
Each chisel is hand forged out of special high carbon steel (individually ensured a hardeness of at least Rc 61) and mirror polished throughout to facilitate resharpening and honing.

lie-nielsen
Our A-2 Steel chisels will hold an edge
O-1 Tool Steel Chisels

leevalley narex
the blades are accurately ground chrome-manganese steel, hardened to Rc59.

leevalley stanley sweetheart
The taper-ground blades are chrome-vanadium steel hardened to Rc57-62

leevalley veritas chisels
O1 tool steel.

blue spruce
The blades are made from A2 tool steel which is some of the finest steel available for edge tools today. It is hardened and tempered in a computer controlled vacuum furnace to a hardness of Rc60

woodcraft pfiel
First, they’re crafted from the finest Swiss Tool Steel,

woodcraft woodriver
Our Chisels are made from CRV Steel hardened to Rc59-63

ashley isles Mk2 bevel edge
The steel is wonderful oil hardening carbon steel hardened to about Rc61.

[Jim Foster]

What angle(s) are you using when you set the bevel micro-bevel if your using one?

[Steven Lee, NC]

I didn't use a micro bevel, with the work sharp I just stick it in and it sharpens the whole bevel at 30 degrees. I also have the veritas mk II that can put on a micro bevel but for some reason I can never get my chisels or plane blades perfectly square with it so had to give up on that for sharpening.

[Brian Kent]

Hi Steven.
My first note is that sometimes people have to grind down the first bit of an edge to get to harder steel.

Second, I have Two Cherries. Sometimes they are overly polished and have to be flattened on the back. I have no complaints and have not tried other chisels.

And third, what set is it from Woodcraft? Is it the Wood River brand, Footprint, Sorby, Pfeill? I don't remember which they had as an anniversary set, but I seem to remember Pfeill. This might help others advise.

Finally, I think the correct answer is Lie Nielsen or Blue Spruce because they are really pretty and expensive.

[Trevor Walsh]

I've used the ashley isles Mk2's and American Pattern. The way I cut dovetails I don't pound on them, and I use other chisels for that work, all vintage Witherby, Butcher etc. I've found AI steel to be very nice stuff for the price point, and much nicer than a plastic handle or the hooped Narex (a style I do not prefer). Occasionally the steel at the very tip is not as hard from the manufacturing process, but two grindings should be sufficient to get down to the nice metal. I've used the LN O-1's and in the smaller sizes they are nicely balanced, the wider ones aren't as nicely balanced to my hands, but the steel is equally nice and a bit beefier than the AI.

[John Coloccia]

FWIW, the new Pfeil bench chisel set is very nice and well priced. It's difficult to go wrong buying anything from Pfeil.

There are the ones I mean, by the way:

http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2081076/27384/pfeil-swiss-made-cabinetmakers-bench-chisels-6-piece.aspx

[Steven Lee, NC]

It was branded woodcraft. I am pretty sure it was before they started carrying Wood River. I think they called it Sheffield steel or something like that.


And third, what set is it from Woodcraft? Is it the Wood River brand, Footprint, Sorby, Pfeill? I don't remember which they had as an anniversary set, but I seem to remember Pfeill. This might help others advise.

[Bill Haumann]

If Blue Spruce and Lie Nielsen are in your budget (I have not used either but hear good things), I suggest also taking a look at Barr Quarton's cabinetmaker chisels. They sharpen readily (hand forged O1) and keep the edge a long time. I have some Ashley Iles as well, but use them mostly for paring. My Barr chisels did a whole lot of mortising before I got pigstickers, and held up very well to it.

[Casey Gooding]

I have used the Ashley Iles, Lie-Nielsen and Blue Spruce. They are all fine chisels and will do what you need them to do. My personal preference is for the Lie-Nielsen. I really like the feel and balance.

[Chris Griggs]

My buddy's set of LNs are hands down my favorite chisels I've ever used. For me the design strikes the perfect balance between small and large. I have a set of AI american patterns that I are nice but I find too small for many things, so I still use the inexpenisve set of Woodriver chisels I bought a few years ago (which actually turned out to be quite descent once I got past the not so good steel).

If you have budget I highly recommend the LNs.

I will likely buy a set of LNs at some point, but want to get a first hand look at the yet to be released Veritas chisels before I pull the trigger.

[Tom Scott]

My very first set of chisels were the Marples. Overall, they are not that bad a chisel, especially for the price. But they are soft and don't hold up long with hard woods (you get good at sharpening, though).
My next set were Two Cherries. Great chisels, very good edge retention and will definitely do whatever you need them to. Absolutely no complaints except for the lacquer coating.
My third, and final, set are the LN's. They have a great steel (A-2) and I just love the aesthetics and the way they feel. They were a want, not a need, but they are my go-to chisel for just about anything and everything. I couldn't bring myself to get rid of the Two Cherries, though, and have re-ground them with a 25 degree bevel for more paring applications. If you have the budget for the LN's, you won't ever be sorry.

[David Posey]

Are your current chisels flat across the back near the edge? It sounds as if the back may just be hollow, which doesn't really affect the chisel's performance as long as you can get it flat near the edge. This is intentionally done in Japanese chisels to make them easier to sharpen.

If you are sure you need new ones right away, I would cast my vote for the Lie-Nielsens provided cost is not an issue. They will make sure you are happy with them. If you are on a budget, the Narex are relatively well made. If you want quality, but feel like you can wait, I would wait and see what LV comes out with in their new line.

[James Owen]

Of the chisels that I have used:

LN A-2 for chopping or the O-1 for paring are both excellent chisels; excellent edge retention, very nicely balanced, superb ergonomics; true imperial sizes.

AI: O-1; hold an edge very well, nicely balanced, great ergonomics; true imperial sizes.

Pfeil: chrome-vanadium tool steel; hold an edge very well, nicely balanced, good ergonomics; metric sizes.

Henry Taylor: O-1; hold an edge well, nicely balanced, good ergonomics; true imperial sizes.

Blue Spruce: A-2, excellent edge retention, very nicely balanced, superb ergonomics; true imperial sizes.

-----

You won't go wrong with any of the above; my first choice would be the LNs; very, very close second choice would be the Blue Spruce.

(Ergonomics is a very personal thing, so my idea of "excellent ergonomics" may well not be yours; if at all possible, it is very worthwhile to hold the chisels in your hands and play with them for a while before purchasing.)

*****

Sorby: there were some problems with quality control in the heat treatment several years ago; there still seems to be some variations; Sorby bench chisels tend to be on the soft side, so edge duration is not as good as other brands; the flip side of that coin, however, is that they are easy to sharpen.....

Wood River: decent chisels, but you do have to grind away the slag layer before you get to the good steel; after that, not too bad at all; decent value for the price.

New-manufactured Stanley Sweetheart chisels: about on par with the new Sweetheart planes: not too terribly impressive. If you want a newly-manufactured Stanley 750-type chisel, go with the LNs, especially for the price....

-----

If you're looking for an economy set, the WR chisels are not bad; otherwise, skip these three.

**********

I have no experience with the others mentioned, so can offer no recommendations, other than to say that I have read good, positive reviews of the Barr, Two Cherries, and Narex chisels.

[Steven Lee, NC]

Thanks, after pricing them out I think I am going to order a few Ashley Isles chisels to try. Mainly because I can get a butt and a bench chisel for about the price of a single LN or Blue Spruce. I wasn't able to easily find a butt version of the Two cherries and Henry Taylors are kinda hard to find too.

I think the butt ones are better for pounding out the waste from half blind DT's and the bench for the waste between the pins and tails of the through DT's. I have only recently started practicing DT's and have always wished I had a shorter version for hitting with my mallet



http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=toolshop&Category_Code=CIL

[Chris Griggs]

I think the butt ones are better for pounding out the waste from half blind DT's and the bench for the waste between the pins and tails of the through DT's.


Thats exactly what I have found. There is certainly nothing wrong with having a couple set of more specialized chisels. I quite like the AI butt/american pattern chisels for chopping tasks and small "close range" paring, but when doing a lot of back and forth between chopping and paring (e.g. half blind pins) I prefer the longer chisles.

[Jim Koepke]

I think the butt ones are better for pounding out the waste from half blind DT's and the bench for the waste between the pins and tails of the through DT's. I have only recently started practicing DT's and have always wished I had a shorter version for hitting with my mallet

My butt chisels are a mixed set of rehabilitated old chisels that have been used a lot. I think only a few of them may have started as butt chisels.

Your comment about "pounding out the waste" reminds me of how my dovetails have improved over the years. I used to "pound out the waste" with gusto. Now I use less force on the mallet and end up with better results.

My accumulation of chisels consists of rag tag group of multiples in many sizes. Some just work better for some things than others.

There is a thin set for paring. A heavier bevel and squared edged sets for removing a lot of wood with persuasion from a mallet. With many in between all the way up to the heavy mortisers that can take a heavy whacking with my biggest mallet.

jtk

[Terry Beadle]

I bought a set of the London Pattern AI and I'm very happy with them. I did have to increase the cutting bevel to 35 degrees to keep an edge in harder hard woods. Babinga is very hard. Not as hard as cocobolo but near it. I would recommend starting with a 35 degree micro bevel with a 30 degree primary and if the cutting edge doesn't hold then use a 37 ~ 40 micro bevel.

That said, the LN A2 cryo's will do Babinga no problem but cost a bit more. For dovetail chopping, you could get by with just a couple sizes of LN A2's. Depending on your boxes or drawers or chests projects, the bigger the dove tail usually you use a wider chisel. But, being that the Babinga is so hard you couldn't cut through with a chisel wider than 1/2 inch with out having to give it a really good wack and that is absolutely not the way to end up with good joints. So a 1/4, 3/8 and a 1/2 would meet most of your dove tailing goals. I get my best dove tail results by very lite taps and mostly paring the joints. I use a 1/4 and a 3/8ths width chisel most of the time. Rarely do I use my 1/2 inch for dove tailing chores. YMMV but I doubt it.

Enjoy the process !

[James Owen]

.....Henry Taylors are kinda hard to find too......

You can find a pretty decent selection of Henry Taylor chisels, bench gouges, carving tools, and turning tools at Traditional Woodworker.

[Mike Holbrook]

If you want a very versatile chisel that can take abuse and pare too, you might think about the Barr chisels. They are hand forged so the steel has some unique properties. These are some of the most expensive chisels, but I think you can get away with less chisels too. These chisels should also last very well. I just happen to live close to Highland Woodworking and picked up a set at their 20 % off on one item sale which moved their cot down in line with most of the other top chisels.

[Steven Lee, NC]

Looks like their bevelled edge firmer chisels are what I might be looking for but I didn't see any butt ones. I still get confused by all the chisel types.



You can find a pretty decent selection of Henry Taylor chisels, bench gouges, carving tools, and turning tools at Traditional Woodworker.

[Jim Koepke]

I still get confused by all the chisel types.

I think that is what the sellers wanted long ago so people would buy more of what they didn't need.

Don't worry about the types, instead look for what will work for you.

Some of the terms like "firmer" chisel get thrown around so much they become meaningless.

Bob Smalser produced a good article on this. Unfortunately many of the photos are missing because they were located off site. The information is still there and still good.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?13734

jtk

[Steven Lee, NC]

Thanks for the info. This is another reason why I'm going with AI. I can afford 2 of the exact same chisel and put on different angles and see what the differences are. One of my local woodworking stores sells pretty cheap exotic shorts that are as hard or harder than bubinga which I plan to experiment with.

If I got an LN, Barr etc I'd be hesitant to make any major changes to them.






I bought a set of the London Pattern AI and I'm very happy with them. I did have to increase the cutting bevel to 35 degrees to keep an edge in harder hard woods. Babinga is very hard. Not as hard as cocobolo but near it. I would recommend starting with a 35 degree micro bevel with a 30 degree primary and if the cutting edge doesn't hold then use a 37 ~ 40 micro bevel.

That said, the LN A2 cryo's will do Babinga no problem but cost a bit more. For dovetail chopping, you could get by with just a couple sizes of LN A2's. Depending on your boxes or drawers or chests projects, the bigger the dove tail usually you use a wider chisel. But, being that the Babinga is so hard you couldn't cut through with a chisel wider than 1/2 inch with out having to give it a really good wack and that is absolutely not the way to end up with good joints. So a 1/4, 3/8 and a 1/2 would meet most of your dove tailing goals. I get my best dove tail results by very lite taps and mostly paring the joints. I use a 1/4 and a 3/8ths width chisel most of the time. Rarely do I use my 1/2 inch for dove tailing chores. YMMV but I doubt it.

Enjoy the process !

[Bill White]

Trevor, I'm glad to hear another Butcher fan speak up. Well forged, and just darned nice to own. I have a bunch of W. Butcher stuff. They have been kinda collection objective 'cause they are so good.
Just a post from a dino WWer.
Bill

[Jim Matthews]

I would like to see a picture of both your chisel edges and what you were trying to cut.

There are limitations to what any chisel will do, regardless of the steel.
A straight 30 degree bevel that's not actually sharp could be half the problem...

jim
wpt, ma

[Christopher Charles]

I have a set of hte AI round back dovetail chisels and love the feel for dovetails in domestic hardwoods. A set of marples does the heavy work for now, but will be replaced by japanese or LNs down the road. Good luck!

C

[Steven Lee, NC]

My AI chisels came in last night from thebestthings.com I got 3 butt and 2 bench. I really like the look and feel of them. Based on how I hold chisels, the butt chisels feel much more manuverable.

I havent tried sharpening them yet but they were able to pare the end grain a pine board despite all the imperfections visible to the naked eye.

One of them has a loose ferrule, how am I supposed to get it to stay? It's solid all the way around so crimping it doesn't appear to be an option.

[Mel Fulks]

I have enjoyed reading posts about chisels. Butcher is also a favorite of mine. The best detailed information I have found on making cast steel is in Britannica Encyclopedia 11th edition 1910 under "Iron and Steel" article. 32 pages of fine print. An interesting quote: "compared with the Bessemer process which converts a charge of even as much as 20 tons of pig iron into steel in a few minutes and the open-hearth process which easily treats charges of 75 tons, the crucible process is of course a most expensive one with its little 80 pound charges..." He goes on to say that it survives only because of its superiority when the best is required. Some cast steel was made, I think, after WW1 but I have not found mention of any made after WW2. note: if you look this up you need to read the blister steel comments before the crucible steel comments as they are related.

[george wilson]

Lots of talk about chisel brands. Not much about sharpening them to get the best durability. You may be sharpening yours to too acute an angle. Try making the angle less acute and see if they hold up better. Never buy Sorbys. They are soft. I had to reharden some lathe tools I had. Way too soft. New Marples may be too soft,too. I have a set of marples from 1965 that I continue to use,but those days are gone.

Some makers actually make their chisels soft to avoid lawsuits from broken shards in the eye. Sorby and new Marples may be among them.

[Roy Griggs]

I'm an "old tool" guy....so let me recommend the chisel that is copied by LN, the Stanley 750. Price is one reason, quality is another, comfort , balance, edge retention, all those reasons add up to a fine chisel. The older 750's which are marked 750 seem to have better steel than the newer ones marked only "Made in USA". For long paring chisels there is the Stanley 720, also very good chisels, although they don't have the balance of the 750's because of their length. I have nothing bad to say about all of the new chisels being made, but at times it seems as if I'm reading the ads in a FWW or PW magazine here. There are many great antique chisels out there, Witherby, Butcher, et all. So, don't overlook older chisels. Only now are chisels being made that are equal to the quality of chisels made 100 yrs ago.