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View Full Version : A lurker takes the plunge...



Paul Dietz
03-18-2012, 4:38 PM
I've been lurking here for quite some time, fantasizing about getting a laser for my home shop. I finally took the plunge and got an Epilog 40W Mini18. So let me start by thanking everyone who posts - it really helped me in understanding all the issues. In fairness, I wanted to share a bit about my experience so far.

First a bit about my situation. This is purely a hobby machine. My day job is as a hardware researcher for Microsoft. (Our group works on things like Microsoft Surface, Kinect, keyboards, mice, etc.) As such, I get to play with some awesome toys at work including various 3-D printers, CNC routers, and laser cutters. Once you live in this sort of environment, it's really hard to go back to the idea that a home shop is a bench and a table saw. I should also note that I'm a electrical engineer, so for me, building stuff in the shop is a means to an end (building really cool experiences). So I want the journey to be short and sweet. Hence my desire for rapid prototyping. My home projets tend to be more artsy, and often involve kids. They include things like animatronics (http://AnimatronicsWorkshop.com), fountains (http://www.instructables.com/id/Fountain-Clock/), etc.

My first big purchase for the shop was a CNC router - a small CNC Shark from Rockler. Having one of these is great. It's a very versatile tool. However, I quickly learned that the router itself quickly becomes a project. First problem is that every work piece has to be securely clamped in a way that doesn't interfere with the cutting. This can be a significant challenge. This is by far the most annoying thing about using a router versus a laser. I've destroyed more pieces than I can count because my clamping was inadequate. Another constant issue is flatness. I have to mill the table down regularly because the MDF warps. (There's a new version of the machine with a metal table - clearly, that's the way to go...) You need to use a backer board so that you don't cut the table, and I still haven't found an ideal solution for that. Keeping it flat after a few cuts is challenging, so it constantly needs to be replaced. And the router itself came with no dust collection system (I built one) or even a decent way of zeroing, particularly the Z-axis. I now have reasonable solutions for all these problems, but the up shot is that even the most trivial piece takes about an hour to do. Most problematically, there were so many little tricks to getting things to work, it really wasn't something I was comfortable letting the kids (teenagers) do without serious supervision.

The laser was my attempt to address most of these problems. At work, I can draw up a piece, cut it, and be back at my desk in about 15 minutes. And the pieces generally require no clean up. This is the experience I wanted at home. As such, I generally steered away from the sub-$5000 units - they looked like they would be like my CNC - projects in themselves.

My shop is fairly small, but I wanted something capable and robust. Trotec took 6 months to respond to my inquiries, so they were instantly out. We have Universal Laser units at work, but they have had many issues, and I wasn't impressed with the service we were getting. I thought hard about the Zings, but there were too many compromises. That left me looking at the LaserPro C180 and the Epilog Mini18. The machines are really very comparable, with fairly subtle pluses and minuses. I ended up deciding that I liked the C180 better (just a better design, more solid), but the lower price and better reputation for service swayed me to get the Mini18.

It took several weeks for the laser to arrive once I ordered it. Although I was hoping for simplicity, I quickly realized that setting up for the laser was just a lot of little things to deal with. My Harbor Freight dust collection system that I setup for the router is very loud - speced at over 100dB! Of course, the router itself is even louder. Hearing protection is required. I really wanted the laser to be something I could use without protection. That started on my journey to find reasonably quiet compressors (for air assist) and blowers.

I found the same compressor Epilog sells - a new Gast DOA (horrible name!) - for less than half the price on Ebay. This line has a lot of different options, but the key thing is the last two letters which designate the motor. The one Epilog sells is an AA. The other options are things like feet, handles, etc. Mine came without feet, or a fitting. The feet use a 10-32 screw, which is a tad unusual, and it took me awhile to find compatible shock mounts. The compressor gets hot, so you need something that won't melt to keep it off the floor. The laser air supply connects via a 1/4" OD tube and uses one of those fittings where you just push the tube in. (It releases by pushing the ring in.) It took a bit of hunting, but I found a IN103-104-021 Male Push In Connector 1/4 tube x 1/4 NPT fitting worked great on the compressor. Yet another Ebay order.

As for the blower, I ended up getting a Penn State Industries DC3XX 1.5HP DC3 Portable Dust Collector Motor Blower (no bag or hose) for $300. It is dramatically quieter than the red Harbor Freight unit I had, and it seems to work much better, even if the specs seem comparable. Actually, one key spec is different - it's an amazing 40dB quieter! It's an impressive product. I think it's actually quieter than the fans in the laser.

For the time being, I am simply venting to the outside. However, the smell is getting back into the house, and I have close neighbors. I looked at the commercial filters, but they are much more than I need and way too expensive. So I am in the process of building a DIY filter unit. My 55lbs. bag of GC C-30 activated carbon just arrived from General Carbon.

We had an incident with one of the lasers at work (yes, someone walked away and it caught fire), so I was paranoid about fire protection. I can't believe that fire suppression is not a standard feature on laser cutters. I will probably build my own system for this. But for the time being, I ran out and got a CO2 extinguisher to use manually if needed.

Just to be compatible with everyone, I picked up a copy of CorelDraw X5 Suite. You can get it much cheaper than the price Epilog is charging. I find it occasionally hangs on the Epilog driver on my Win 7 X64 box. I haven't found a solution to this yet. As someone who works for Microsoft, I find this totally unacceptable. A lot of people blame MS for these sorts of problems, but more typically it's bad drivers written by others. When I want to do serious precision mechanical design, I use SolveSpace. So I will have to investigate the path to the laser from that...

A final gotcha - I had wired my shop 4 years ago with 220V specifically because I figured I would get a laser someday. I have an L6-30 twistlock socket. I told Epilog what I needed, but they actually shipped a short IEC cable that went to bare wires. The laser supply auto switches, so I was able to use a standard IEC cable on 110V until I was able to get the right power cord elsewhere. For the record, the receptacle on the laser is an IEC C13 - the same as on most desktop computers.

When the laser arrived, it was mostly a matter of getting it out of the box (it's pretty heavy for one person to do, but I managed), removing the packing, and plugging everything in. But getting it to talk to my PC was significantly harder than I expected. I am no neophyte when it comes to network stuff, but I needed to call tech support to get everything working on my network. The documentation was scattered and incomplete. Epilog was closed for the weekend, but the sales guy called me back, and walked me through it.

My first cut, surprisingly, did not work. The head moved, but no beam appeared. After a few more attempts, it just started working. This problem has continued. Whenever I turn on the laser, it needs to do some pretend cutting before the laser actually fires. Typically, it's just a few seconds. But I find that surprising. I never saw that behavior on other lasers I have used. Epilog tells me this is normal. Not so sure...

Once I started cutting, I started playing with the saved settings in the Epilog driver. I found that these required a lot of changes. First, even though I had specified a Mini18, the settings were for the bed size of a Zing. Some other things were off as well. For example, none had auto-focus enabled. So I spent awhile going through and editing all of these. I was hoping these would just be text XML files so I could quickly do this in Notepad. But they are not.

Over the last two weeks, I've been trying out different materials, different settings, etc. I'm still learning what materials work well, and how to finish them. I'll probably post more on that later...

I finally decided to do my first real project - some engraved pins for my daughter's Girl Scout troop. Unfortunately, just after I finished the first sheet, I let the lid slip, and it slammed from about an inch above close. That little jar was enough to make the laser go nuts. The table immediately rose until it jammed, and then everything, except the fans went dead. I searched, but couldn't find a service manual. And Epilog is closed for the weekend. So I dove in, and found the main board had apparently fried itself. (48V was on, but none of the lower supplies were active.) I could see that the Vcc pin on one of the motor drive ICs had vaporized. I presume this happened when the Z-axis jammed itself. I found a limit switch on the bottom of the Z-axis, but none on the top. So I presume it just kept driving until it self-destructed. Anyhow, I started a ticket with Epilog. As a weekend laser warrior with a day job, only being able to get service weekdays is a bit of a problem. Kind of disappointed that a two-week old laser is having this problem...

So that's been my experience so far. It's been a surprising amount of effort to get things this far (it's definitely not as easy as setting up a new printer), but I'm still hopeful that once it's all going, things will run smoothly.

Thanks again to all!

--- paul

Kim Vellore
03-18-2012, 4:49 PM
Paul,
Congratulations on your laser purchase. One thing I did as soon as I got the laser and jammed the Z motor, I removed the plunger and disabled the auto focus. I also found out most people have done that. I always focus manually.

Kim

Larry Bratton
03-18-2012, 5:01 PM
Paul,
"As a weekend laser warrior with a day job, only being able to get service weekdays is a bit of a problem. Kind of disappointed that a two-week old laser is having this problem..."

Try communicating with Epilog tech support via e-mail. They have enhanced their tech support to use e-mail and it is a real time saver. They are very responsive, sometimes getting back to you within a matter of minutes. I recently got a new computer with Windows 7 and I could not get the laser to install. I e-mailed tech support and literally had a solution within 10 minutes or so. I followed the instructions they sent and had it working in just a few minutes. Beats calling and waiting on hold or for a callback.

Roger Leiva
03-18-2012, 7:26 PM
Paul, when you have a laser like Epilog Mini 18 and is very excited to get it to work,gives anguish to be any problems. For your message, I think missing some detailsor information before operating the machine. I bought my Epilog Mini 18 40-wattthree years ago and it is true that I presented many problems, but it was very clearand read the manual that came attached to the purchase. Also with Corel 12, CorelX5 or need to learn the tricks for cutting and engraving. (For example the line thickness to cut or burn.) Then manipulate the machine like a baby to avoid mistakes that could damage your components, and finally a good maintenance ofcleaning at least weekly. Epilog technicians and local distributor in my area, did their best to solve my problems and ensuring the machine is always applied. A Epiloginterested in customer satisfaction and I am a satisfied customer, so now I have abeautiful machine more powerful, the Helix 24 of 60 watts.Roger Leiva (C.R.) Helix 24, 60 Watts.

Richard Rumancik
03-18-2012, 8:48 PM
Welcome, Paul.

That was a pretty unfortunate occurance with the laser. Even though the whole incident may have been initiated by you dropping the lid, such a minor accident should not have set off the chain of events that you described. I wonder why they don't have an upper limit switch on the z-axis? Are they just assuming that someone would normally have their finger on the button? Perhaps the jarring caused it to go into autofocus mode and it jammed like Kim's did. I hope that Epilog treats you well with this - I don't think that the small accident described should result in a mainboard to burn up. Even if there is no limit switch, it is surprising that there is not some other form of protection on the mainboard to limit motor current in case of a stalled table or jam of some sort.

Mike Chance in Iowa
03-18-2012, 9:26 PM
While it's certainly possible everything went haywire due to letting the lid drop a little bit, I suspect something was loose or faulty before that happened. I have had my Epilog 45-watt mini for 7 years and I have had the lid slip out of my grasp several times and nothing has happened other then speed up the beating of my heart.

Paul Dietz
03-18-2012, 11:40 PM
I thought I'd share a pic of the damage. If you look at the power IC in the lower right corner, you can see that pin 8 (counting up from the bottom) has actually melted open. That happens to be the power pin, so it's exactly the one you expect to go first in an over current situation...

227519

John Noell
03-19-2012, 1:45 AM
As a relatively happy Mini18 owner welcome to the club! Here is what I have come to after a couple of years: 1) Forget autofocus and remove it, 2) The 32 bit driver has never screwed up on me whereas the 64 bit driver caused me thousands of dollars in problems. Eilog's response was horrible. Even the dealer helping me agreed their response was lame. 3) Dropping the lid is easy to do and has NEVER caused any problems for me. (Some lasers have lids with dampers to prevent such things.) There was something defective about your laser to have such problems. And yes, there are no settings files for the 12x18 Mini18. Rather annoying Epilog could not have someone spend a few minutes to change them to match the Mini18 bed size. While I agree with others that Epilog's tech support is better than average, I have had them tell me stupidly wrong things and be quite UNreasonable (as in not following their own printed instructions on core charges). YMMV.

Martin Boekers
03-19-2012, 10:14 AM
Welcome aboard! WoW you have quite a bit of technical knowledge, please feel free to
post as often as you like.

On the laser firing at start up there is a way to fix that. It is refered to here as a "tickle"
I'm not sure hoe to set it but I am sure someone will jump in and help out on that.

There are so many of us here that work on weekends, it would be nice to have some
support available from Epilog, even if it is a "pay for" option.

Please post photos and links to cool projects you do.

Marty

Neil Pabia
03-19-2012, 12:05 PM
Paul, welcome to the group. I have 2 Epilogs at this point and have yet to have any major problems with either one but it does happen and when there is an issue, I have found them very quick to fix it. As far as the laser not firing in the beginning, it takes a minute to warm up, I usually just throw a piece of scrap baltic birch in it and raster a name or letters to warm it, after that it will start immediately all day long.

Mike Chance in Iowa
03-19-2012, 9:14 PM
I forgot to respond about the not firing issue too. Mine has always taken at least a minute to warm up. It does not matter if the lid is open or closed when the laser is turned on. If I wait at least 1 minute before pressing GO, then it will fire immediately when I press GO. I can send the job as soon as I turn on the laser, I just need to wait 1 minute before I press GO.

Paul Dietz
03-21-2012, 2:55 PM
Thanks for the tips! I just wanted to report back that I am up and running again. Not only was the main board literally fried, my display board also had an issue. That second part I only figured out after installing a new main board, so that added an extra day to the process. I'm hoping that was the cause of the original failure. At this point, I have spent more time repairing the laser than using it. I'm looking forward to that turning around...

This indicates to me that Epilog lasers are not yet consumer-ready devices. As an electrical engineer, I have no qualms about diving in and debugging circuit boards. But that I had to do this within the first couple of weeks would definitely make me think twice before recommending buying one to anyone who was not tech savvy. There would definitely have to be a good, local repair person...

I was a little disappointed with Epilog support. I was not able to reach them via phone. First, they are not open all the hours listed on their website. (There was an automated message about reduced hours...) And even the several times when I did call during the modified hours, I just sat on hold until it threw me into voicemail. I presume they are having some sort of short term staffing issue. Fortunately, they were pretty good about responding to emails the same day and getting parts shipped out. I didn't really need it, but for someone that needed to be handheld through the repair, email would be a rather awkward substitute to a real conversation.

Finally, as an EE I had a few nits to pick when I looked under the hood. First, it should not be possible for a jam situation to physically fry the control board. This is why you design in limit switches, fuses, current monitoring, etc. I sure hope they fix this soon. On a more subtle point, I thought the quality control could have been better. I found the sounder on the display board still had the tape that covers the hole during soldering. They simply forgot to remove it. One of the main case screws was about half the length of the others. You could see where it broke. But they still used it anyhow.

Sorry for the gripping. Mostly just unhappy that my very expensive toy broke the first time I really tried to use it. Presumably, I'll be happier when I am successfully cutting and this all is a distant memory...

Roger Leiva
03-22-2012, 12:02 AM
Paul, Hands up!, Now have many successes and to enjoy this precious tool.
Roger Leiva (C.R.) Helix 24, 60 Watts.

Richard Rumancik
03-24-2012, 12:56 PM
. . . my display board also had an issue. . . I'm hoping that was the cause of the original failure. . .

Paul, are you now thinking that dropping the lid was not the event that initiated the autofocus and unfortunate chain of events that followed? If it was, then you need a snubber or damper (or gas spring) on the lid . . . otherwise who is to say it can't happen again. But its hard to know WHY the lid dropping could have initiated autofocus . . .

I have to agree that there should have been some overcurrent protection somewhere - when you are engraving on unusual items it is possible to have a crash if autofocus is inadvertently activated. (I disabled mine after pinching my workpiece between the table and gantry.) But the design should anticipate events such as this and should not result in a $1000 accident.

Hmmm . . . in the last few days both you and Bill have mentioned problems with tech support at Epilog . . . that doesn't sound good.

Paul Dietz
03-25-2012, 6:10 PM
The slight lid slam certainly seemed to initiate the event because the table shot up immediately when that happened. That said, I don't know what the underlying cause actually was. My working theory was that there was a cold solder joint somewhere that made intermittent connection. I've seen some very dramatic failures of motor control systems when an encoder lead went intermittent. It really did seem like the control system decided that the table was not where it was supposed to be, and shot it up at full speed. I'm hoping that problem was on one of the two boards that I replaced.

I just did a quick test. I brought my table to mid-level, and jarred the laser (with my finger on the power switch to kill things if something went wrong). No problem. Not exactly conclusive, but it does give me some hope that it really is fixed...