Plane repair opinions wanted.

[Eric Brown]

Just won a Steers patent rosewood infilled bottom 22" jointer plane by C.E.Jennings. It has cracks on both sides of the plane above the mouth area. I can only come up with three solutions. If it were to be brazed, it would probably require replacing the rosewood strips as they would catch fire. Or, I could just retire the plane as a piece of artwork. Last, I could try to save it as a user by glueing some metal plates to the sides with epoxy. (Brass would be pretty, but tool steel would be stronger.)

I'm open to other suggestions.

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Thanks. Eric

[Greg Wease]

I'd go with plan B--artwork.

[Jim Koepke]

Looks like retirement on the mantle may be your best option.

Why use a show piece to do the work of an everyday user?

jtk

[george wilson]

That is Brazilian rosewood which you cannot find to replace it properly. If the plane will cut decent shavings,you could use it as is,or keep it as a collectible tool. I haven't seen one of those before. Maybe it is valuable?

[Eric Brown]

I will probably keep this plane as a showpiece and not do much to fix it.
Does anyone have any thoughts on stabilizing the cracks?
Superglue? JB Weld?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Eric

PS: George, it is kind of rare, but not as valuable because of the damage.
I didn't mention it, but it also has a replacement Stanly blade.
It will fit nicely into my C.E. Jennings collection though.

[george wilson]

No kind of glue is going to be of any use at all. The crack doesn't need stabilizing if you aren't going to use the plane. The crack in the Liberty Bell hasn't gotten any larger since they quit ringing it.

[Mel Miller]

I vote for retiring the plane also. If you really want to use it, and it might be interesting to see how it handles with the rosewood strips, you could braze up the cracks and replace the rosewood strips. The plane has almost no collector value with the cracks, brazed or not. The strips are Brazilian rosewood which is available.

[Terry Beadle]

In my younger days, I did a bit of welding and machining at a rural machine shop in lower Alabama .... aka .... LA ! Hoot!

There we some times welded aluminum motor cycle cases back together. To keep the metal from warping, we use water soaked clay and some times just water soaked rags to keep the heat from traveling. You have to go slow. Now days there are more exotic rod metals available and tig/mig combinations that allow low heat welding.

If it was mine, I'd remove the infill and plan on making a new infill plane blade/handle piece out of some cocobolo or other stable wood. I'd take the plane to a professional welding shop and have them take a look. I'd probably recommend you have it welded not brazed as brazing takes over too much metal in terms of heat near the work area versus spot welding.

I think George is right, no kind of glue is going to do the job.

Baring no availability of welding with heat control, I'd put side plates of brass and rivet or counter sink matching brass fasteners.

Other wise, it would look good in a glass case on the wall of your living room...!

Good Luck and keep us posted.

[Mel Miller]

If it was mine, I'd remove the infill and plan on making a new infill plane blade/handle piece out of some cocobolo or other stable wood. I'd take the plane to a professional welding shop and have them take a look. I'd probably recommend you have it welded not brazed as brazing takes over too much metal in terms of heat near the work area versus spot welding



Many planes have been successfull repaired by brazing - that was the industry standard method for cast iron repair for many years. Obviously, you can see the color change in the repair. A number of folks have tried other methods of repairing cast iron planes, most with no success.

[James Taglienti]

I just had a small cast iron rabbet plane brazed with silicon bronze a few months ago. No damage, no warping. It was a bear to file though.

[Eric Brown]

James, I have decided to try getting this plane repaired. If you don't mind, what did it cost to get yours welded? Did it come out ok? Do you know how it was done?

I just got the plane and the rosewood is worn out. The mouth area has a bump of a few thousants and it would probably be best for me to get it welded first before trying to flatten.

One reason for me buying this plane is my need to learn. To this end, I will probably try to replace the rosewood with delrin and see if it glides over the wood better than my Stanley #7.

Thanks all for the responses.

Eric

[Zach Dillinger]

James, I have decided to try getting this plane repaired. If you don't mind, what did it cost to get yours welded? Did it come out ok? Do you know how it was done?

I just got the plane and the rosewood is worn out. The mouth area has a bump of a few thousants and it would probably be best for me to get it welded first before trying to flatten.

One reason for me buying this plane is my need to learn. To this end, I will probably try to replace the rosewood with delrin and see if it glides over the wood better than my Stanley #7.

Thanks all for the responses.

Eric

It is your plane to do what you like, but in my opinion you'd be stark raving mad to remove it and replace it with plastic...If you remove the all-but-extinct brazilian rosewood from that plane, let me know. I'd love to get my hands on some.

[Chris Vandiver]

Keeping the wood infill the exact same height(or slightly lower than the cast iron sole)seems to be problematic. If, in everyday use, the wood has some movement(even say .001 proud of the iron sole)it will effect the performance of the plane, most likely in a negative way. It seems to me that the wood infill should always be slightly lower than the iron sole and will never come in contact with the piece being planed. So with that in mind, it is really just a glorified version of a corugated sole. More of a conversation piece than anything else, in my opinion.

[Jim Foster]

Have you considered/heard of "Stitching?" This plane might be a good candidate. Stitching is a way of repairing cast iron cracks in engine and machinery parts without welding or furnace treating. The link below does not look like the stitching I had done on a set of cylinder heads, but it's a form of the process. What I had done looked better.

I suspect there are a number of engine rebuilding shops in OH that can do this type of repair. It should not be that expensive.

http://r-f.com/lock_n_stitch_repair.asp
(http://r-f.com/lock_n_stitch_repair.asp)

[Eric Brown]

Jim your info might be the best answer. I think I will email them with a picture and let them evaluate the situation.
One concern is strength around the mouth opening.
If it can be repaired without heat, then the rosewood wood probably stay.
Thanks.
Eric

[george wilson]

I won't say that Brazilian is completely unobtainable,but the Gibson and Martin guitar Companys were raided not long ago,and their Brazilian rosewood,and custom made instruments made from it were confiscated. They couldn't prove that their wood was old. This wood was stopped being imported in 1969.

[Joe Fabbri]

Although I only have experience with MIG welding, perhaps a good TIG welder might be able to weld that without overheating the area too much. I think I've heard of people TIG welding near chrome without damaging it. So, maybe you're not out of luck just yet.

Joe

[James Taglienti]

James, I have decided to try getting this plane repaired. If you don't mind, what did it cost to get yours welded? Did it come out ok? Do you know how it was done?

I just got the plane and the rosewood is worn out. The mouth area has a bump of a few thousants and it would probably be best for me to get it welded first before trying to flatten.

One reason for me buying this plane is my need to learn. To this end, I will probably try to replace the rosewood with delrin and see if it glides over the wood better than my Stanley #7.

Thanks all for the responses.

Eric
Eric, a friend had it brazed for me at his work. It cost me a 3/4 inch chisel. Sorry i couldnt be more help.

Now for a Brazilian rosewood horror story.
Early in my woodworking days i bought a 10" wide, 7' long piece of mostly quartersawn brazilian rosewood for $2. It was 1" thick. I cut it up and used it for small projects, and gave it to friends. It was when i thought rosewood was rosewood. Now i am knocking those little knicknacks apart trying to reclaim the scraps of what was once a very rare board!

[george wilson]

I do not see how you could localize welding heat so as to not burn up a LOT of the wood. We always brazed cast iron,but I am not a welder. My journeyman Jon liked to weld,so he did the welding. We had our specialties in the shop,which was good for getting a large range of things done,and never a conflict over how to do them the best.

[Jim Foster]

I would not look just at the vendor I linked, it was the first one I saw in Google. If you have any engine machine shops nearby that regularly repair antique engines of farm equipment, they would be good candidates to know someone that does this. In the town I live in there is a shop that regularly does this, but I'm in MA, and shipping both ways might not be worthwhile.


Jim your info might be the best answer. I think I will email them with a picture and let them evaluate the situation.
One concern is strength around the mouth opening.
If it can be repaired without heat, then the rosewood wood probably stay.
Thanks.
Eric

[george wilson]

James,you must be a LOT older than I am(71). When I was in college,we went up the street to Penrod,Jurden and Clark,a veneer mill. We could buy their rosewood for $2.50 a board foot. This was in the very early 60's. At that time,we thought this was a high price. Of course,I was making a dollar an hour at most of the jobs I could get back then. You got the 7 FOOT board for $2.00???

[Mel Miller]

I'm afraid if you have to pay someone to weld this plane you're going to end up with more money in it than it's worth. A commercial shop isn't going to want to mess with it in the first place, and will charge accordingly. Then there is the finish work, repainting, and replacing the rosewood strips (which are dovetailed in). If you really want to use a Steers Patent plane, watch Ebay for another to come up. Later Steers Patents, sold by Jennings, # 6 and 7 sizes sell in the ~$200. range.

[Jim Foster]

I sent my friend that has the engine rebuilding shop the pictures of this hand plane asking him if it's a candidate for stitching based on the photos and how much he thinks the fee to stitch it would be. I'll let you know if/when he replies what he thinks. I had a combustion chamber for a cylinder head stitched once and it came out really nice. Probably will not last forever, but a repair to the hand plane should

[Jim Foster]

The shop felt the sides and bottom may be a little to thin for stitching. They suggested brazing, but agreed the wood on the bottom might get damaged.


I sent my friend that has the engine rebuilding shop the pictures of this hand plane asking him if it's a candidate for stitching based on the photos and how much he thinks the fee to stitch it would be. I'll let you know if/when he replies what he thinks. I had a combustion chamber for a cylinder head stitched once and it came out really nice. Probably will not last forever, but a repair to the hand plane should

[Jeff L Miller]

Jim, I had a plane repaired by Jim Davie who lives in Australia. His weld is nearly invisible (he repaired a Stanley 10 1/4 for me). He had a friend traveling from Chicago to his home and I was able to send my plane to his friend who took it to Jim and then returned it to me. I paid about $40 for the repair and couldn't be happier. My post of the repair is on OWWM Swarf.

Here is Jim's site http://www.jimdavey-planes-sharpening.com/346c0dee-a7c0-4f80-9ff5-2a1b1385b7ba.aspx

Take a look at some of his restorations to get an idea of what I'm talking about.

Jeff

[Carl Beckett]

You can't have anything with it that burns or melts, but furnace brazing might cause less distortion since it heats the entire part slowly and uniformly. A eutectic silver or gold braze ( maybe nichrome based ) would be pretty strong

[Eric Brown]

Its obvious that the rosewood strips are dovetailed in and will only "slide" out the ends. My question is, does anybody know whats keeping them there? I see no pins or other mechanical means used. My thoughts are that they steamed the rosewood strip, compressed it, trimmed to fit, inserted, and then let it expand. As this plane was probably made around 1890, glue choices would have been limited. Anybody have any thoughts on how the rosewood strips could be removed in one piece? Maybe put into the freezer or a vacuum bag to dehydrate and shrink the strips?

Just a note, the rosewood is only about 1/8" thick.

Thanks.

Eric.

PS: I am not in any hurry to repair this plane and may not even do anything until next year.

[Mel Miller]

I don't think you're going to get them out in one piece. The inside ends are tapered, leaving only a sharp edge to push against. also, it looked to me like they had some glue under them. When I replaced some, I drove them in snug and trimmed off the excess on the ends + a little adhesive underneath.

Mel