Italian Bandsaws

[Van Huskey]

Most here know I am a big fan of Italian (and Austrian) bandsaw, since there haven't been many of the old Agazzani vs Laguna vs Minimax like we used to have almost weekly I have been getting a lot of PMs asking why I am so fond of them or MM in particular. While I try to give the best explanation I can via PM I am sure I leave a lot of germane information out. I thought I would post a link the a MM video that Sam did back when they were still in Austin which shows the MM16, it obviously is biased but he does a good job in pointing out those things that make Italian saws great. It is a long video so if you don't want it all when you are done skip to the end, the last thing he shows you is a demo of the footbrake as he operates it with his fingers, this is what a REAL foor brake will do with almost no pressure and this is why I think they CAN be far superior in speed than a motor brake.


When the page opens click on the video titled MM16 Bandsaw

http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=36&task=videodirectlink&id=8

BTW Laguna and Hammer also have videos but I don't think they do as good of a job in pointing out all the little things like Sam does.

[David Kumm]

Van, has the PM 1800 made any impact in the market. I have not seen one or heard from anyone who could make a direct comparison. Sam has always been very straight up with me and speaks pretty objectively about all brands. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Dave, I can't really say but it doesn't have much traction on this or any other forum. I do have a friend with one and did a little review a year or so ago about it here. I think I remember 1 or 2 guys that bought them that posted about here. My local tool porn store has a HUGE inventory and sales the full WMH and shop fox lines and is the distributor for Extrema so they deal with decent volume, talking to them about the same time they had sold in their words "quite a few". Too vague and anecdotal to have any idea what it really means.

I REALLY like that saw, the build quality is excellent and the fit and finish beats any of the Euro saws. My issue is the price you can get a comparable Euro saw for the same or less. I have always considered the Agazzani B-24 (the traditional 17" resaw vs the "resaw" version) to be the best buy in Euro saws and when (at the time) you could buy the Agazzani for less an Asian import just didn't rate (the same as I viewed the Grizzly 19" Ultimate). If it had a "sale" price of 2600-2700 it would be a different ball game. Again, I really like the saw and it is full of innovation and features.

[David Kumm]

I think Agi has strengthened their smaller saws in response to everyone else doing so. Don't know all the details as I'm unlikely to leave the dark side of cast iron. Is ACM a totally separate manufacturer or are they related? Dave

[Van Huskey]

I think Agi has strengthened their smaller saws in response to everyone else doing so. Don't know all the details as I'm unlikely to leave the dark side of cast iron. Is ACM a totally separate manufacturer or are they related? Dave

I know Agazzani has brought in the resaw line to match the Laguna and MM offerings for height below guides like the B18-18 and B-20-20. I don't know about the standard height versions they indeed my be beefed up too. I have never been fully clear on all the connections between the Italian BS companies, they are seperate but yet intertwined, they are all located within 10 miles of each other in Northern Italy. Every time I talk to one of the insiders I get a different story. ACM seems to be mainly a contract builder as their machine line badges ACM is very small. Unlike Centauro who although the build to spec they have a pretty full line themselves. SCMI gets their vertical BS from Centauro. My best understanding is ACM builds some if not most of Agazzani's "light weight" saws as Agazzani has a very large line of saws which is very complete.

[Jeff Duncan]

I know the real reason Van is so fond of Italian bandsaws......

....b/c he hasn't tried a German one yet:p

Jeff.....who just could't resist

[David Kumm]

I know the real reason Van is so fond of Italian bandsaws......

....b/c he hasn't tried a German one yet:p

Jeff.....who just could't resist

How about Zimmermann? Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Good one Dave!

I was thinking Bauerle myself, but haven't used either so couldn't give an honest opinion.

I was really just messing with Van for playing around with those little Italian toys;)

JeffD

[ian maybury]

It was actually one of those Minimax videos showing a saw sailing through a re-saw cut that got me turned on to what a 'real' band saw could do Van - and led to my buying a used 24in Agazzani just over a year ago. I've heard mention of Sam Blasco, but hadn't made the connection to figure who we was.

The story on Italian band saw manufacturers is I suspect another case of an Italian phenomenon (it happens in a few other places too like Japan) known as networked manufacturing. The one you often heard about was the Italian sunglass industry of years gone by - there are some famous case studies recording it in the academic manufacturing literature.

The way it works is that you get families specialising in handling specific tasks. One might for example source castings, machine and then balance band wheels - and sell them on to a whole bunch of higher level outfits that handle assembly. Which might sell on to a higher level organisation that manages the brand, and fronts as e.g. Agazzanni. That same family might also in another network produce wheels for light rail cars or something.

What makes it interesting is that these networks (in absence of formal relationships, or of the members being a part of any unifying organisation) rely heavily on the goodwill and the commitment of the members to ensure that stuff happens - a culture of 'honour' based on understood 'dos' and don'ts' such that you simply don't let others in the network down. This in comparison with the anglo model that has traditionally been based on adversarial relationships (organisations motivated by self interest, oriented to take advantage of their trading partners if they can) and relies on the use of contracts and legal penalties in event of breach of agreement to force compliance.

The advent of long supply chains, and lots of outsourcing in mainstream manufacturers has led to a lot of interest in understanding what makes these networks tick - it turns out that trust is a very big part of the deal. One of the big insights that many Western companies have been slow to 'get' is that you can't mix the two - when force/power/authority are deployed beyond mutually agreed limits then trust is destroyed. They have a tendency to talk the talk, but to reach for the big stick when the pressure comes on, or when the opportunity to take advantage presents itself. It's equally true in the context of the company to employee relationship....

ian

[David Kumm]

Good one Dave!

I was thinking Bauerle myself, but haven't used either so couldn't give an honest opinion.

I was really just messing with Van for playing around with those little Italian toys;)

JeffD

I think Bauerle made the most beautiful machinery in the history of the world. Dave

[Van Huskey]

I have never seen anything but pictures of a Bauerle bandsaw. In pictures they always struck me as being built like a lot of big cast iron saws particularly a Tannewitz GH. But as always I am sure the details are what make the saw.

[Jeff Duncan]

In general they are built like tanks....which I like;) But you have to look for their older stuff. It's hard to find dates on much of the stuff I've seen, but I'd put a guess that the stuff I like is typically from the 60's. Later on they got much squarer and less 'designed' looks to their machinery, which is not as appealing to me.....though I'm sure still of adequate quality.

If I ever ran into a situation where I had a lot of money I didn't know what to do with, I would certainly own at least a table saw, mortiser, and tilting shaper from Bauerle. Probably a few other machines as well. Unfortunately although their prices are exceptionally reasonable for their quality, the cost to ship overseas is a deal breaker:(

JeffD

[Van Huskey]

Jeff,

The cost of industrial machines dumped in Germany before they did here, probably because they were a little ahead of the curve transferring over to CNC and other automated or single purpose machines. I knew a guy that about 8-10 years ago bought basically an entire shop from Germany and had them all shipped in a small container. I don't know if that makes as much sense now as it did then.

If I got to the point where I had to burn money or put it in the can at the curb on Mondays because I didn't have enough room to store it I would call Northfield and Martin.

[Jeff Duncan]

I would love to be able to fill a container and have it shipped.....of course I'd love to take a vacation on a private island somewhere in the South Pacific too:cool:

I like Northfield, but I do feel if I were to shop on a per machine basis I could find better machines....even US made, (at least on the used market). I do like Italian machines as they're a very good quality for reasonable money, I have several in the shop that are true workhorses. I love the German machines, (at least so far), as they're just so damned well built. Of course from an engineering viewpoint the Germans have been ahead of the curve for quite some time as we found out the hard way some 70 or so years ago....but I digress. My understanding from having spoken to several guys with more experience than I over the years, is that Bauerle is right there with Martin. Then there's Kolle too....another very well respected company. So I don't think I'd have a shop full of one particular name.....but there would likely be a lot of German imports:D

Hope the guys on the "USA made" thread don't look over here:eek:

Jeff

Oh as for bandsaws.....if I ever replace mine with something of better quality, realistically it will probably be something along the lines of an old Tanny or a used Italian machine.

[David Kumm]

Machineseeker.com is a favorite place to look at the old rounded corner machines. In addition to shipping, power is a problem. Seems like the stuff that shows up here came through Canada and is wired 575. As much as I respect Northfield they were not considered the top of the food chain in the old days. They are the only survivor but their bandsaws are not as heavy as the Tanny, Yates, or Oliver. Marlowe Mcgraw had an Alberti planer he replaced with a Martin and sold about a year ago. He ranked the finish quality of the Alberti equal to the Martin. Dave

[Andrew Joiner]

OK, You guys got me curious so I looked around for some of these German gems. I found this nice little saw. Looks like the fence is well, slightly over built. Man you could slap heavy slabs against that for centuries and it would still work like new.



http://www.machinestock.com/~traderpic/1006/1006-14428-12072011083106289.jpg

[ian maybury]

:) That's the sort of machine where setting up your toe out would really feel like it meant something...

ian

[Van Huskey]

I imagine that fence weighs more than a lot of table saws today... Taking it off the saw would be a bit of a chore though!

[Alan Lightstone]

Nun, das ist ein Zaun.

[Jeff Duncan]

OK, You guys got me curious so I looked around for some of these German gems. I found this nice little saw. Looks like the fence is well, slightly over built. Man you could slap heavy slabs against that for centuries and it would still work like new.



http://www.machinestock.com/~traderpic/1006/1006-14428-12072011083106289.jpg

Andrew, you forgot to add that you can probably pick that baby up for less than the cost of a new Powermatic table saw;)

JeffD

[David Kumm]

Andrew, you forgot to add that you can probably pick that baby up for less than the cost of a new Powermatic table saw;)

JeffD

You can still see that the top was scraped rather than ground after all these years. Tablesaw art. Dave

[Andrew Joiner]

Andrew, you forgot to add that you can probably pick that baby up for less than the cost of a new Powermatic table saw;)

JeffD

Cool, next time I'm at Woodcraft I'll grab one.

[Jeff Duncan]

Cool, next time I'm at Woodcraft I'll grab one.


Based on my interactions with Woodcraft employees.....if I were a betting man I'd be wager a good amount you won't find a single guy who's ever heard of Kolle;)

Though depending on what part of the country you live in they might try to send you to a local retailer with a slightly different spelling:rolleyes:

JeffD

[Mike Archambeau]

Hope the guys on the "USA made" thread don't look over here:eek:



Oh I like my Italian made band saw an awful lot. But wish it had been made-in-usa, then I would like it even better.............MM16.

[David Kumm]

That Kolle- which may be the most beautiful saw I've ever seen- was also available with a sliding table. When we talk about a "first class" saw that is the picture to post. Dave

[Andrew Joiner]

David, I agree the Kolle is the most beautiful saw I've ever seen as well. If someone wanted the definition an overbuilt machine I'd show them that picture.

[Van Huskey]

I still can't get over that frekin fence. That thing must weigh more than the average contractor saw... Anyone know what size blades that monster will take.

[Wes Grass]

Says 380mm

http://www.mhs2000.de/hpm2006/datasheet.php?itemid=1006-14428&mhs=1006uk10111120&site=www.amann-wzm.de

http://www.amann-wzm.de/index.php4?site=indx&lng=en

They've got a nice looking pedestal grinder too.

[Van Huskey]

Says 380mm

http://www.mhs2000.de/hpm2006/datasheet.php?itemid=1006-14428&mhs=1006uk10111120&site=www.amann-wzm.de

http://www.amann-wzm.de/index.php4?site=indx&lng=en

They've got a nice looking pedestal grinder too.

I thought is was apropos that when I opened the second link a picture of Mad King Ludwig's castle popped up, the person that desined the Kolle table saw in question had the same sort of mentality as Ludwig.

[Jeff Duncan]

Ahhhh, well beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder! Nothing against the Kolle, but for my money if I were buying on looks, it would be between the Buaerle and the Wadkin PK. Two saws that are just easy on the eyes.....oh and made to work accurately for a couple of lifetimes too:D

Not sure how to steal a pic to post here though:(

JeffD

[David Kumm]

Jeff you set the bar pretty high. The PK is eye candy and can be had as a slider as well. What Bauerle is your choice? Dave

[Jerrimy Snook]

Not sure how to steal a pic to post here though:(

JeffD

http://www.solidwoodmachinery.com/Wadkin PK.htm

227833

[Jerrimy Snook]

Sorry Van, this was a bandsaw thread wasn't it? Here is an old bandsaw, American made and old but still a bandsaw (http://awwm.wordpress.com/american-clement-36-bandsaw/). This guy, Donovan, is certifiable about old American iron. He has a functional museum of sorts here in Oregon.

BTW the Boice Crane (http://salem.craigslist.org/tls/2841894698.html) 14" for sale here has a new lower price.

1936 Boice Crane 14" bandsaw
New paint,wheel rubbers,bushings are in excellent shape.
Great little saw
Ph.503-689-5144 leave message. Thankyou




Location: w/salem
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests



http://images.craigslist.org/5He5Jb5S53K33G73N8c28e260520e8e181635.jpg
http://images.craigslist.org/5Ie5G65K13Gb3Id3F2c28e3bf369602b31ae4.jpg


http://images.craigslist.org/5Lf5Kd5Fa3M43J83o3c2842e247e29fb61edb.jpg
http://images.craigslist.org/5I95Gd5Kc3K43G13Ifc287d6a39465f6511eb.jpg



PostingID: 2841894698

[Van Huskey]

Jerrimy, that is a nifty old BC! In the end I like where the thread has gone, I really am enjoying it.

[Ryan Mooney]

Ahhhh, well beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder! Nothing against the Kolle, but for my money if I were buying on looks, it would be between the Buaerle and the Wadkin PK. Two saws that are just easy on the eyes.....oh and made to work accurately for a couple of lifetimes too:D

Not sure how to steal a pic to post here though:(

JeffD

google search "machine junkie wadkin pk slider" (minus the quotes) for a truly drool worthy set of pictures - it may not be original kit but daaannngg. There are also some pictures of some really nice Wadkin BS's there (since its a bandsaw thread :D).

[Van Huskey]

Ryan, thanks for the post, that is one well sorted machine and gorgeous to boot.

[Rod Sheridan]

In the end I like where the thread has gone, I really am enjoying it.

The thread seems to have degenerated into "Old saw Pornfest 2012".................LOL..................Rod.

[David Kumm]

The thread seems to have degenerated into "Old saw Pornfest 2012".................LOL..................Rod.

I would argue the thread has elevated rather than degenerated. The bandsaw is impressive as well. Anyone know what 16.5 CWTS converts to? Dave

[Jerrimy Snook]

Anyone know what 16.5 CWTS converts to? Dave
Isn't that 1650 lbs?

[David Kumm]

Isn't that 1650 lbs?

I thought that was too easy but it makes sense in that the Oliver 217 and Tanny PH were about that weight. The Yates would be heavier so that puts the Wadkin in the others range. The table is bigger so the main frame casting is about the same as the C frame 217 and PH but configured like the snowflake. Dave.

[Jeff Duncan]

http://www.solidwoodmachinery.com/Wadkin PK.htm

227833

Thanks Jerimy for the effort in tracking down that pic....unfortunately that is NOT the saw I'd want. The one Ryan suggested is the one! One can also find a fair amount of pics on Google just by searching Wadkin PK ;)

As far as the Bauerle goes it's the LKL from there 60's.....she's a beauty too. A little hard to find pics of, but there is one listed at the machine seeker site.

And I can't believe I forgot it, but there IS an American saw that should be mentioned....the old Tanny J250's are a good little saw also.

Dave, I'm not so much setting the bar....as I don't have any of these beautiful machines:( It's just that if your going to talk about really top quality machinery, I think they should certainly be in the conversation. This thread started out as a sort of nod towards Italians for making great machines....which I wholeheartedly agree with as there are more than a couple in my shop! To be fair though, there's a lot of quality product out there if you look hard enough!

Jeff....off to go look at those pics again....woodworking porn;)

[Van Huskey]

The thread seems to have degenerated into "Old saw Pornfest 2012".................LOL..................Rod.

I am sure a lot of you have seen it but an excellent old American iron porn site:

http://www.hesswoodwork.com/machinery.html

[Ryan Mooney]

The thread seems to have degenerated into "Old saw Pornfest 2012".................LOL..................Rod.

I have had the thought that maybe everyone here should just "go get a room" so to speak :D

[David Kumm]

I am sure a lot of you have seen it but an excellent old American iron porn site:

http://www.hesswoodwork.com/machinery.html

Van all ready knows but three of the saws, 116, 217, and Y20 are mine and even better in real life. Chuck has a thread on the resto of my 217 and it's worth a look at how much lipstick the pig will take. Dave

[Jerrimy Snook]

Thanks Jerimy for the effort in tracking down that pic....unfortunately that is NOT the saw I'd want. The one Ryan suggested is the one! One can also find a fair amount of pics on Google just by searching Wadkin PK ;)

When I saw the first pic I posted I thought "Well she must have a great personality". When I saw the pic that Ryan posted I realized that I picked the ugly step-sister.

[Jerrimy Snook]

Here is some German equipment that is awesome in my book. Vollmer CHD270 (http://youtu.be/b0sRamly2oQ)

[Van Huskey]

Van all ready knows but three of the saws, 116, 217, and Y20 are mine and even better in real life. Chuck has a thread on the resto of my 217 and it's worth a look at how much lipstick the pig will take. Dave


Actually I didn't know you have the Yates American too... you suck even more now... It was one of my favorites saws, very cool, old school and small enough to actually have in most hobby shops.

[Van Huskey]

Here is some German equipment that is awesome in my book. Vollmer CHD270 (http://youtu.be/b0sRamly2oQ)

Jerrimy, that is a whole different fetish... :o