Another shaper thread

[david brum]

I thought that the shaper vs bandsaw thread count was out of balance, so here goes. I have read various accounts of guys using shapers with router bits and getting acceptable results. My results have been awful, with lots of burning and vibration.

I've just about killed another router in my router table, and wishing I could be using my shaper instead for router table operations. For those of you who're getting good results, do you have to use higher quality router bits? I have a bunch of MLCS bits, which are generally OK in a router but not in the shaper. Would it help to try something like a Whiteside bit?

Also, when you're referring to using router bits in your shaper, are you mainly talking about large diameter bits? I'd ideally like to run something like a 3/4" pattern bit.

[David Kumm]

The smaller the diameter the crappier the results unless you are really slow at feeding. The two flute design and speed limits of the shaper cause more tear out in my experience. Some machines go up to 15000 rpm but that is still marginal. The only shaper that turned a router collet at 23000 was the Knapp and that gave results equal or better than a regular router table. Better bits help but a decent shaper cutter will outperform a better router bit on a typical shaper. Dave

[Stephen Cherry]

I'd look at the tip speed of the cutters. I've never tried it, but it seems like the shaper does not turn fast enough for all but the jumbo router bits. For shaper patterns, I use a 4" diameter byrd head, or 100 mm Leitz. Super smooth, and super quiet.

Also, although it is not a "cool tool" if you are doing a lot of pattern cutting, you may think about an Onsrud inverted router, one with the normal motor and belt drive. These turn the bit at over 20k rpm, and use an external oiler for bearing life.

One other option would be a chinese electro spindle, with vfd, with or without cooling. Not that much more dinero than a big PC router. When my routers go to router heaven, I think I will get one of those. THey would know about these on the cnc forum.

[Van Huskey]

I would be interested to hear from the "shaper" folks but I think if you take a router bit and look at the speed recommendation for that bit and it is more than 20-30% higher than the shaper will turn it probably will leave you unhappy. You could help the matter a lot with a 4 wing bit like is in the Freud line but you might as well buy the shaper cutter instead if you are going to buy a new bit.

Here is something I think would sale: an imported 3 HP shaper with a spindle designed for speeds up near 20K then make about a 6 speed pulley system 7.5k-20k with 2.5k increments and include a 1/2" router spindle. I know the shaper guys see this is useless BUT I have over $3k in high end router tooling and it would make something like that MUCH more appealing. Seems like Grizzly could do a version of their 1026 shaper in the 1,500-1,600 range. Then again I may see it as a huge market and it might be a tiny niche.

[Stephen Cherry]

Here is something I think would sale: an imported 3 HP shaper with a spindle designed for speeds up near 20K then make about a 6 speed pulley system 7.5k-20k with 2.5k increments and include a 1/2" router spindle. I know the shaper guys see this is useless BUT I have over $3k in high end router tooling and it would make something like that MUCH more appealing. Seems like Grizzly could do a version of their 1026 shaper in the 1,500-1,600 range. Then again I may see it as a huge market and it might be a tiny niche.

The difficulty with this is that the bearings run out of rpm capability, and from what I understand, a greased bearing will not work. Cr onsrud solves this problem with an oiler. I think that felder does as well.

[Van Huskey]

The difficulty with this is that the bearings run out of rpm capability, and from what I understand, a greased bearing will not work. Cr onsrud solves this problem with an oiler. I think that felder does as well.

Makes sense, sorta. I am guessing it has to do with the generally much longer and heavier shaper cutters. Maybe if you only rane the lighter weight/shorter router bits at higher RPMS, still seems there should be off the shelf bearings that could handle this in todays age. If not, $200 for the oiler? So $1,800? If so I would still be in.

[Cary Falk]

I have used router bits on my shaper using slower feed rates with good results. I have cheap Sears, Woodcraft, and other no name bits. For pattern making I have a 2" high by 2 5/8" dia Infinity rabbiting bit with a rub collar. I intend to slowly replace common profiles with a CMT profile pro head that takes 40 and 50 mm knives. Infinity usually has pretty good sales. Grizzly has pretty good prices on shaper cutters also.

[Cyrus Brewster 7]

Here is something I think would sale: an imported 3 HP shaper with a spindle designed for speeds up near 20K then make about a 6 speed pulley system 7.5k-20k with 2.5k increments and include a 1/2" router spindle. I know the shaper guys see this is useless BUT I have over $3k in high end router tooling and it would make something like that MUCH more appealing. Seems like Grizzly could do a version of their 1026 shaper in the 1,500-1,600 range. Then again I may see it as a huge market and it might be a tiny niche.

I think a hybrid machine like this would do excellent. If something like this became available I would definitely take a hard look. For a price point like that it would be hard to turn down - best of both worlds.

The problem is that the router table vs. shaper threads would become less polarizing, er... entertaining. Then again, you'd be able to throw in a link to this thread to spice things up.

[david brum]

Great info. I also think it's high time for a hybrid router/shaper at the hobbyist level. Just think of it! We could have shaper vs router vs hybrid machine threads.

I found an old thread from Woodweb, where members were discussing how to increase the speed of a shaper to something like 15,000 rpm. It sounded like the main issues were finding high speed bearings, and dealing with a spindle which was balanced for 10,000 rpm but perhaps not faster. I wonder (out loud) what the difference is between high speed and regular sealed bearings, besides some kind of high temp grease.

Also for the record, I do use shaper cutters whenever possible. For tight curves or smaller, hand help parts, a 2" or larger cutter is sometimes too big, though. I recently had to make a whole pile of Greene and Greene dresser handles. Lots of tight curves, all using a template. I tried it on my shaper, hoping for a miracle, but it really tore and burned the wood.

[Van Huskey]

OK the more I read I come up against the 10,000 rpm barrier with the bearings. There are plenty of things in our lives that run much faster, I mean the router runs that fast, right, it has bearings, right, it doesn't need oil mist lubrication, right? So is it that the tangential forces in a shaper are higher or the way the spindle is supported or what? We put a man on the moon and build road cars that top 250mph why can't we build my shapter and with all that cheap Chinese labor they should be able to build it for 29.99 (plus shipping and handling)... but wait there is more, if you order the Shapter 25,000 in the next ten minutes we will throw in...

I need to quit the more I talk the more it sounds like I am trying to build a Rockwell Bladerunner or its ilk.

[Van Huskey]

All this talk of shapers and what do I do... go off to CL and enter shaper (which isn't one of my normal seraches) and what do I see 30 miles away an Oliver 288 double spindle shaper... man I am glad I don't have room to store it until I get my shop finished, if I did I would be trying to figure out if it was too late to call.

[David Kumm]

All this talk of shapers and what do I do... go off to CL and enter shaper (which isn't one of my normal seraches) and what do I see 30 miles away an Oliver 288 double spindle shaper... man I am glad I don't have room to store it until I get my shop finished, if I did I would be trying to figure out if it was too late to call.

If you make the trip you can try several and probably pick one up on the way home. Dave

[Van Huskey]

If you make the trip you can try several and probably pick one up on the way home. Dave

That would make me tingle but I just found out what my wife wants for our anniversary, it is in May, 3 weeks after April 15th so there won't be any Oliver 288s or that other "dual" machine I would love (a 260) until well after those two dates since there are things I HAVE to have for the new shop like a jointer and planer... :D

[Mike Heidrick]

One other option would be a chinese electro spindle, with vfd, with or without cooling. Not that much more dinero than a big PC router. When my routers go to router heaven, I think I will get one of those. THey would know about these on the cnc forum.

They are actually quaite a bit more for a 2.2kw chinese water cooled spindle than a 7518 or 5625 router. By the time you add in a VFD and a water cooling setup you will be invested. Then you will have to adapt to a 80mm mount for the spindle and get some ER20 colletts and some wrenches etc. It adds up. It sure is a LOT quieter though!! The majority of 2.2kw 3hp rated 400hz capable VFDs are 220V single phase input as well.

but Dont let my post fool you though - you do know I am planning to do exactly this eventually :)

[Van Huskey]

And I thought I was crazy with my Delta 18-900L on steroids plan. Now I need a 3 ph motor for my MM20 so I can speed it up to 6000 or so SFPM. But wait I will need a Phase Perfect to feed the VFD since I want at least a 7.5hp motor and no single phase VFD will run it...

This is like my high school days shoe horning a 427 side oiler with a 671 blower running alcohol into a 69 Mustang...

BTW had to convert back to gas, it was either breathe or not drive the car

[David Kumm]

And I thought I was crazy with my Delta 18-900L on steroids plan. Now I need a 3 ph motor for my MM20 so I can speed it up to 6000 or so SFPM. But wait I will need a Phase Perfect to feed the VFD since I want at least a 7.5hp motor and no single phase VFD will run it...

This is like my high school days shoe horning a 427 side oiler with a 671 blower running alcohol into a 69 Mustang...

BTW had to convert back to gas, it was either breathe or not drive the car

Don't worry Van, I've got a VFD that will run the 7.5 for you. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Don't worry Van, I've got a VFD that will run the 7.5 for you. Dave

You guys just keep making it worse, in the "real" world someone with a horrible disease going around TRYING to infect other people gets thrown in jail! :eek:

[Rod Sheridan]

I've used steel router bits in a shaper and they cut well, the same can't be said for the carbide bits I tried.

Of course on the shaper I almost exclusively use steel knives.....................Regards, Rod.

[Jeff Duncan]

David, it sounds like you have a problem with your shaper. If your getting vibration while using different bits, that's the only thing I can think of. I run bits in my shaper right around the 8k rpm area with no problem. No burning or vibration to speak of. Without getting into all the technical aspects of cuts per inch, cutting angle, diameter of the cutting circle etc etc that often come up in these threads, all I'll say is if you feed steadily and at a rate that 'feels' right, the shaper should not offer any real problems for small batches.

I also don't think it's the bits as if they were the problem it should be more noticeable at the higher rpm's, (at least I think it would), than at the lower rpm's of a shaper.

If your doing a lot of pattern work I recommend getting a carbide insert head as it will give a better quality cut at a faster feed rate than the router bit will. Actually if your doing a lot of any specific type of cut I recommend moving up to a shaper cutter. I mostly use my shaper with router bits for small things where it's not worth it for me to grind or have knives made for the shaper.

Look into your shaper and more specifically the collet. May be worth tracking down a piece of 1/2" tool steel known to be dead on accurate to put in the collet and take some measurements from. There's something off somewhere....you just have to find it!

good luck,
JeffD

[david brum]

Thanks, Jeff. I'll try that. I'm pretty sure that I've got some tool steel stock around the shop somewhere.