Neander Band Saw?

[Mike Holbrook]

I know where I am. I also know that the major power tool that many neanders use is a band saw. I found out just the other day that the lumber yard is glad to surface the boards I buy and leave me with one good perpendicular edge as well. The other power tool many use is a lunchbox planer. I am good with the lumber yard handling this task if I can get away from it, talk about filling the air with wood dust! If I can get away with ripping my long boards with a band saw and not needing a table saw I will be a happy camper, because that chore is the other dust fest I hate.

The band saw I have is small, under 12" throat, with a maximum blade size of 1/2". It is a good saw, an Inca, but Highland Woodworking stopped carrying them many years ago and I can't find parts any more either. I have been thinking about a larger saw for a long time. I have been thinking that with a larger band saw, my Festool saw and my nest of hand saws I could do without the table saw. I am wondering what size and make saw is popular for breaking down stock? I know a larger heavier saw is better at cutting long straight lines. I just do not know much about what features to look for in a saw for processing larger lumber.

Don't hate me for asking a power saw question here. I am particularly interested in the neander approach to getting stock to a size it can be conveniently dealt with with hand tools. A power saw to eliminate all power saws kind of approach....

[James Owen]

For general purpose bandsaw work, I'd recommend a saw with a 14"+ throat, a 12"+ depth of cut, and at least 1-1/2 HP. Many have a standard depth of cut of about 6", with a 6" riser block available for around $100 to $125. Depending on the saw, the largest blade width generally ranges from 3/4" to 1"+.

In 14" saws, Rikon, Jet, and Powermatic all make nice quality saws for pretty reasonable prices. The Rikons are probably the best value and have a solid 12-1/2" or 13" (or more, depending on the model) depth of cut built in; the Powermatic is probably the best quality of the three brands. Jet is also very nice. I'd go with at least 1-1/2 HP, with 2+ being better. (The only caveat is that anything over about 1-1/2 HP generally requires a 220 Volt, and, sometimes, a 3-phase power supply.) With these machines, you're looking at about $700 on the low end to about $2000+ on the high end.

If you're looking for something bigger and more powerful, then a 16" or an 18" is a good bet, but they are normally 2-1/2 to 5 HP, 220V, and some are 3-phase. You'll usually get at least a 12" or 14" depth of cut, and often a couple of inches more. Again, Rikon, Jet, and Powermatic make nice saws, and you can also get into some of the higher-end industrial-type machines like the Laguna, etc. Here, you're looking at a bottom end price of about $1500 (you can often get one for about $1100 or $1200 on sale) and upper end of $5000+.

Things to look for: horsepower rating (1-1/2 or higher); throat (14" or larger is more useful); depth of cut (12" or larger is more useful); ability to install a quality fence system; quality blade guides and ease of blade guide adjustment; dust control port(s); solid and easy-to-use blade tightening and adjustment system; ease of blade change; ease of cleaning (what the dust control system doesn't get); heavy-duty trunnions on the table; etc. Variable speed is generally more useful for metal work than for wood work, but if you're going to be cutting a fair amount of metal, it's something you might want to have.

I would recommend staying away from the hardware store house brand, Borg house brand, woodworking tool warehouse/retailer house brand, and large retail outlet/department store house brand saws -- they are generally of lower quality, more finicky, and are often difficult to get replacement/repair parts for. There are also a couple of well-known national brands, not mentioned above, that have pretty spotty quality records, as well; you'll probably want to stay away from them, too. A national brand saw such as those mentioned above can be repaired pretty much anywhere in the country and will generally have repair parts available for several years after the model has been discontinued.

[Ryan Mooney]

Heh, I was thinking this would be a thread about human powered bandsaws... Add a big enough flywheel and it seems plausible.

For straight neander work I wouldn't skimp on the bandsaw, if you can get one that does good clean cuts you'll reduce the amount of work you need to do later so quality will really pay off imho. I think this really puts you into the 16-20" saw range. I do see the occasional clean used euro saw but they are pretty rare.

If you have the budget don't rule out the euro saws - the agazzani's for example are surprisingly competitive (at the mid/high end of the market) and well the MM's are really nice as well :D
.
The other saw on the short list would be the hammer N4400, its a bit more than the asian imports but reports are that its an excellent saw and the felder folks are excellent to work with.

For the inca - contact jesse at eagle dash tools dot com, rumor has it that they still have a stash of parts.

[george wilson]

for many years the power tool I used 95% of the time was a 14" Delta I bought used in 1964,with height attachment. I still have it. My motor is a 3/4 h.p. OLD,very heavy duty G.E. motor that looks like it should be 2 h.p.. Much more overload capacity than these new,flimsy motors with minimal metal in them.

I was making guitars,and had no dust collection at all until about 5 years ago in my home shop. The bandsaw was less messy than my 10" 1963 Dewalt Clausing table saw,so I avoided using it.

[Mike Holbrook]

Good info. guys, thanks. I knew my local WW store Highland Woodworking sells Rikon so I checked them out at their web site. Apparently there is a new Rikon Professional 14" band saw about to come out. It has a 2.5 hp motor, 14" resaw......and a $1500 price, higher than the 18" saw. This is probably more saw than I need.

The regular "Deluxe" model 14" is currently $800, marked down from $950, maybe a good saw for me? TheDeluxe saw has a 1.5 hp motor and will resaw up to 13". The only stat I am questioning is the saws blade size limit of 3/4". The 18" saw is now available for $1299 vs $1499. The bigger saw actually has a smaller resaw size of 12", but it has a 2 hp, two speed, 220 volt, 20 amp circuit motor. It will take up to a 1 1/4" blade, 142' long. The larger saw is suppose to have a better more adjustable fence too. My shop panel has 20 & 30 amp circuit breakers installed.

I am kicking this around since I have these 8/4" x 9-10" x 8' boards to make a bench top out of, 8/4 ash for a saw bench and 8/4 hickory...I am about to buy the lumber for the base.... I called Highland Woodworking they suggested the regular 14" Rikon saw. I'm not sure if it is the time to consider this purchase, but I typically try to do these things at a time that the new tool might be a significant help. I have a General contractor grade table saw which I was thinking about using but it was straining to cut 1 1/2- 2' x 1 3/4" purpleheart boards for planes. Even if the little Inca band saw could physically make the cuts, the tiny table, fence and stand I made for it would probably crumble under the weight alone.

I imagine some guys break these size boards down with hand tools but my guess is more do it with a band saw?

[Van Huskey]

First, I feel strange here... just to let you know I am not a neander, if there is a power tool that does it quicker or better I either own it or covet it.

It seems the bottom line is you will use the saw primarily for ripping. For that purpose I would suggest what ever you get you either build a infeed/outfeed table or have a good supply of roller stands. You didn't mention resawing and I assume neanders have their ways there but I can;t grasp resawing veneer without a bandsaw, but maybe that isn't an issue.

For ripping I want two things in a bandsaw, power and weight. I would suggest getting the biggest/heaviest bandsaw your budget allows. That really brings me to the crux of my post, do you want to buy new or is used an option, and the all important question "what is your budget?".

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I have a 17" band saw which is the smallest I would buy.

The 14" saws can't use the wider/thicker blades due to increased flexing from the smaller diameter wheels.

If you're going to use the band saw as your main processing saw, the larger saws cut better, have a better table height (lower) and the power and ability to use larger blades.

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The above photographs show my 17" saw using a 1" X 3 TPI blade to mill green ash from some local trees.

If I were looking at new saws today, I'd buy the Hammer N4400.....................Rod.

[Joel Goodman]

It is a good saw, an Inca, but Highland Woodworking stopped carrying them many years ago and I can't find parts any more either.


Not to go off topic but if you are looking for parts for your Inca -- Jesse at
Eagle Tools
3027 Treadwell Street, Los Angeles, CA 90065
323-999-2909
used to sell them and may have some parts available.

[Mike Holbrook]

Great info on the Inca. I will give Jesse a call.

I guess the question I have is how good a cut can I expect from which band saw or maybe band saw blade. I know that is an open ended question but I need some idea. For instance, the contractor table saw I have been using to rip boards, causes burns & rough blade marks cutting 8/4 hard wood. Sure some of it may be operator error but still I just do not think the saw is capable of giving me "smooth", burn free, rips in 8' x 8/4" hard hardwood boards. I know band saws typically make a rougher cut than table saws, but when we start talking larger, harder pieces of wood I think the band saw is more in it's element. If I bought an 18" Rikon ( 1-1 1/4" blade) vs the 14" regular saw ( 3/4" blade ) could I expect to get a significantly improved cut requiring less plane work? I have no plans to be cutting veneer, ripping and to a much lesser extent resawing long thick boards is my area of interest.

Also, I live on 12 acres, surrounded by hardwood trees, Ash, Maple, Black Walnut....If I have say an 18" Rikon and want to saw some green wood to store....It looks like the poster above is "milling" green ash?

Budget is an issue but I would spend $1,000- $2,000 tomorrow if I thought it would allow me to process hardwood boards 4/4, 8/4, 16/4 maybe larger without having major hand plane work to do to dress the cuts. I don't want to use a table saw, planer, router or other major dust maker if there is any way around it. I want to use hand tools as much as possible but I do not plan to totally eliminate power tools. I would prefer not to have to resort to special air processing.

[Van Huskey]

The cut depends on a lot of factors but with the correct blade and a well tuned saw you can get a very nice edge but it will usually not be glue up ready.

Again, what is your budget?

[James Owen]

I would suggest the larger capacity saw (the 18") simply because, in my experience, there is a tendency to "grow" into the higher capacity tool; IMO, it's better (and less expensive in the long run) to buy the higher capacity saw than to have to replace, some time down the road, a lower capacity saw that is not performing to your expectations/requirements. Since ripping is the main use that you envision for the saw (at least at the moment), the wider blade capacity of the 18" would be a distinct plus over that of the 14". Also, for ripping tougher woods like oak, hickory, ash, or purple heart, the 2 horse power (or higher) saw will make life much easier.

Also, check the Atlanta Woodcraft store: Woodcraft frequently has good sale prices on Rikon products, and somewhat less-frequently on Jet and Powermatic.

(Truth in advertising disclosure: I used to work in the local Woodcraft store, before they closed last year.)

[Van Huskey]

Also, check the Atlanta Woodcraft store: Woodcraft frequently has good sale prices on Rikon products, and somewhat less-frequently on Jet and Powermatic.

(Truth in advertising disclosure: I used to work in the local Woodcraft store, before they closed last year.)

Woodcraft has the Rikon saws on sale this month and the usual Jet/PM 15% sale is on until torrow.

[Ryan Mooney]

It sounds to me like your TS could benefit from a bit of a tune up. If you're getting significant burn and rough blade marks you probably have some alignment issues and would probably benefit from a new/resharpened blade. A couple of hours spent there could be well worth it..

I would also take most of the manufacturers max blade sizes with a grain of salt. In theory my saw handles up to 1" blades but its a lot happier at 1/2 - 3/4". Practically speaking I can resaw to 12" in most woods with a 3/4" blade just fine with it as well, good setup goes a long way there.

[Mike Holbrook]

Van I added a comment , after the fact, to the above post regarding budget. I can "afford" a bigger saw without straining my budget, but I do have a daughter who may want to go to college too....If this purchase will solve the major issue of processing hardwood lumber I am ok spending the money for a good size band saw. If I have to go buy a medium size planer like my power tool buddy thinks I should, I start getting cold feet. The budget issue gets complicated in woodworking as single tools frequently do not a solution make. I am dedicated to hand tools. I enjoy using them, much more than I enjoy using the power tools. I have a reasonable collection of hand tools, most of the tools a general construction contractor typically has and decent woodworking specific power tools. I have many hours on compound mitre saws, nail guns, saws alls....I sort of feel like I did my time with the power tools in the last decade or two and want to move toward less noisy tools.

Ryan, I don't think the problem is how I have my table saw set up. I think ripping 1/8- 1/4" slices off 2" thick purple heart is hard work, especially with a contractor grade table saw, but the question is whether or not a contractor grade table saw is a suitable tool for ripping 8' x 8/4" x 10" hardwood lumber into 2-4" wide boards? Are you talking about 2 types of saws in your post? You start talking about table saws but I think you switched back to the band saw topic in there somewhere?

[Van Huskey]

OK, now we have a budget and a healty one. I am going to address this like you are ONLY going to buy a bandsaw, the bandsaw and/or planer is a whole 'nother kettle of fishy worms.

The $2,000 upper end gets you into the entry level to a European built saw (but no the Italians). At 2K I think the best saw for the money is the Hammer N4400 it is Austrian made has great HP, good weight and a very well built saw. I would get this put a Lenox Woodmaster CT blade on it and rip to your hearts content. With that blade you won't have much surface prep at all. When you look at the Hammer don't just look at the list price, call them up and get a quote, find out if they are coming to a Woodworking show near you and see if they will let you get the demo, they as many companies do prefer not to ship them home and they are completely unmolested. If you call them now they MAY have the demo for this summers IWF in ATL available. Picking up up there and getting the demo could get you a killer deal.

Now on to the other alternative. The Rikon 18" is on sale at WC for $1,100 until the end of the month and even at the Highland price it is an excellent saw, if you want to buy local then this would be a good choice. There is always the Grizzly 513 and 514 series of saws which are excellent values as well.

Look at the Rikon and Grizzly in the mid-range and the Hammer on the high end, think about what you really want to spend and what appeals to you. Then once you have your choices narrowed down a little make a post over the the power forum and you will get tons of replies and information about the specifics of what you are looking at.

This all assumes you aren't interested in used. I don't know about how they price their 20" steel saws but you may want to check out Redmond (south of ATL off I85) and see if they have any ready to go PM81 or Delta 28-350 20" bandsaws, both could be a great saw for you if when configured with guides/motor to suit your needs they were still priced well under your budget cap.

[Van Huskey]

[QUOTE=Mike Holbrook;1896502}Ryan, I don't think the problem is how I have my table saw set up. I think ripping 1/8- 1/4" slices off 2" thick purple heart is hard work, especially with a contractor grade table saw, but the question is whether or not a contractor grade table saw is a suitable tool for ripping 8' x 8/4" x 10" hardwood lumber into 2-4" wide boards? Are you talking about 2 types of saws in your post? You start talking about table saws but I think you switched back to the band saw topic in there somewhere?[/QUOTE]


In case he doesn't pop back in his second paragraph was about bandsaw blades.

[Rod Sheridan]

Also, I live on 12 acres, surrounded by hardwood trees, Ash, Maple, Black Walnut....If I have say an 18" Rikon and want to saw some green wood to store....It looks like the poster above is "milling" green ash?

Budget is an issue but I would spend $1,000- $2,000 tomorrow if I thought it would allow me to process hardwood boards 4/4, 8/4, 16/4 maybe larger without having major hand plane work to do to dress the cuts. I don't want to use a table saw, planer, router or other major dust maker if there is any way around it. I want to use hand tools as much as possible but I do not plan to totally eliminate power tools. I would prefer not to have to resort to special air processing.

Hi, yes I was milling green ash using a standard 1" X3 TPI steel blade with induction hardened tips. I purchase a blade like that for $20 locally, it lasts a very long time in green wood.

In my opinion, the medium range band saws with a good blade will handle all of your processing requirements from rough milling as in my photographs, to the sawing of veneers.

Go on Youtube and watch both parts of the video for the Hammer N4400 bandsaw.................Rod.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have been studying videos on the Hammer and Rikon saws. I plan to call Redmonds Monday and see what they have. They sell new and remanufactured woodworking machinery. Anyone have a rough idea what the Hammer N4400 sells for, have not found any idea of money for it yet. I registered at the Hammer site so I imagine I will hear from them soon.

I do not want to buy more than I need but I want to make sure I get enough saw too. I am aware that a sharp blade makes less power seem like more and a dull one makes more seem like less regardless of the electrons or muscle behind it. I liked the adjustments on the Hammer and the fact that tools are not needed to make most of the adjustments. The Rikon seems to like allen wrenches. I am also interested in the fences and jigs available for each as these can sometimes dramatically improve the tools utility. Guess I will be busy researching again.

[Russell Sansom]

Just though I'd mention with patience you can probably find a used MM16 or equivalent for $1500 - $1700.

[Van Huskey]

First, Russell makes a good point, if you have time to wait you may well find a European saw well into your price range, but it takes a little searching.

Redmond AFAIK only carry Jet/PM new and they don't really have anything in your price range and need range I would recommend. Though I suppose the 18" 3HP Jet would be fine but I would only buy it onsale and the sale ends tomorrow. The best bet from Redmond is a PM81 20" saw but you will probably have to swap the motor out since they are probably only going to have 3 phase versions and I do NOT know how they price their 81s but rest assured it won't be CL prices. Make sure they know you want something ready to work.

The N4400 is $1995 currently plus shipping. Again if you can wait you may be able to get a couple of hundred off the saw they bring to IWF in August, if you can set it up you can just pick it up at the congress center and save all the shipping too. They probably won't even power it up, but they may. The fence on the N4400 is pretty nice and I would only replace it with a Laguna Drift Master but thats another $400. I am not a big fan of buying any BS jigs but Felder/Hammer has a few but they are pricey. Plus they have table extensions etc. Not a huge fan of the guides or fence on the Rikon but they are par for the course in the price range. The Grizzlys is a little better on both counts but the Rikon is on sale. Just for reference the Grizzly 514X2 would be my first stop going down from the N4400 at ~1600 shipped. Under that the Rikon at the WC sale price this month.

[Ryan Mooney]

In case he doesn't pop back in his second paragraph was about bandsaw blades.

Correct, at the upper end of the BS price range its probably mostly accurate, but in the Rikon/mid range Griz/Jet area figure on dropping down a blade size or so from what the manufacturers spec is and in my, admittedly limited, experience you'll be happier overall.

On the other topic, agreed that purple heart is a pita, and I never tried it on my old saw (which was... well... it ran at least.. the general is a nice saw in comparison), but I did rip some pretty sketchy/gnarly wood with it and with controlled feed rate and a sharp blade it would work pretty well. I have since upgraded both my TS and my BS and I can now (consistently) get glue ready cuts on the TS, but don't expect that on the BS. With the BS you will get some ripple, I don't think that's avoidable. The trick on the BS seems to be: good setup and consistent feed rate (pause and ripple, to fast and ripple, to slow and ... yep ripple). I'm improving at both :D, and am now at the stage where I can usually get cuts that only take 2-3 good swipes with a hand plane to clean up (in most woods.. purple heart I'd take a leaner pass with the plane and maybe 5-6 swipes).

Cutting larger logs with any of these is interesting (logs have the "wants to roll" problem as well as being heavier than dry wood - on the plus side wet wood cuts easier). Take a good look at Rods setup (and a few other people here have similar ones, search around). Its well worth the time setting something like that up, I've done a few smaller logs with a more primitive setup but will definitely be building something a smidge more sophisticated before I tackle the next batch (at least decent infeed, outfeed support and an alignment jig).

[Van Huskey]

Ryan, I 100% agree on blade width especially when you are talking about thick gauge carbide tipped blades, I won't go wider then a 1" TriMaster or 1.25" Resaw King on my MM20 and it is NO slouch and rated for 1.5". You are always better of with a properly tensioned narrow blade than a wider blade flapping in the wind or causing your bandsaw to look like a 90 year old granny with osteoporosis and the tension assembly screaming in pain like teenage girls at a Bieber concert.

There is one way to avoid ripples or at least make them almost microscopic... a power feeder, but that would be one more cord... see I understand, over here cords = bad. Over there the bigger the cord needs to be the better, we dream about 440v machines that need #2 copper cords. :D

[Mike Holbrook]

The Hammer is the most expensive then by a wide margin. It does have the largest motor. I see that Woodcraft carries a Laguna 14", 3 HP Lessen Motor LT14SUV for $1,595. It has a monster 14" resaw height and is suppose to handle a 1" blade. I looked at the MM 16" saws for a while back when they seemed to be the most popular saw with the power users.

Ryan thanks for the explanation of the cut these saws can provide compared to a good table saw that gives me the perspective I was looking for.

The thing I liked about the Hammer in the video was what appeared to be easy heavy duty blade & fence adjustments that require no tools. The Rikon system looks more like the allen wrench system my Inca has. I find the adjustment system on the Inca to be slow, fidgity and not quite as intuitive as I would like. I am serious about having a saw that I can adjust/tune to exacting precision without having to study on it for half a day. My Inca is fidgity when it comes time to change blades. It takes me longer than I would like to reacquaint myself with the feel and balance of all the adjustments. The fence is also fidgity to adjust to the blade and too easy to get out of line. This is one feature I would spend money on for something more reliable and easy to use. I am not concerned about an edge requiring a little plane work but a cut that will make it hard for me to estimate what size boards I will end up with after processing does worry me. I want a saw I can be confident I can produce good boards with without such a large waste area that I would never know what the processing would end up making from good raw lumber.

Jigs is probably not the term for the "extras" I was thinking about, a mobility stand, table extension, improved fence characteristics, better blade adjustment and blocks..... The Hammer video shows an interesting user made wood jig used to hold a log in place for sawing.

[Mike Holbrook]

I just took a look at the Laguna 14" SUV (souped up version) bandsaw. Basically it is a "14" saw" with all the bells and whistles of the 16 & 18" models, including a 3HP Lessen Motor. This little monster has a 14" resaw height. It looks like a great saw for my work, a little less than the Hammer but I think a very similar saw. I suspect the motor on this one would push the max size 1" blade without any problem.

[Curt Putnam]

Have you ascertained that your Festool circ saw will not cut the stuff you expect? I would also expect that any contractor table saw is fully capable of cutting 8/4 stuff with the right rip blade in it. I ask because a TS or tracksaw is the fastest easiest method of getting parallel edges. As long as you are going use power, might as well use the right tool for the task.

[Ryan Mooney]

I just took a look at the Laguna 14" SUV (souped up version) bandsaw. Basically it is a "14" saw" with all the bells and whistles of the 16 & 18" models, including a 3HP Lessen Motor. This little monster has a 14" resaw height. It looks like a great saw for my work, a little less than the Hammer but I think a very similar saw. I suspect the motor on this one would push the max size 1" blade without any problem.

The blade size is also limited by two things (imho more than the motor, at least above some reasonable motor/size ratio):

Saw frame and spring strength. A lot of saws in the size range you're looking at don't have the spring to fully tension the wider blades or if they do the frame will flex enough to make it either a long term problem (metal stress, yeah unlikely but happens) or more likely an immediate problem if it increases flex on the blade when the saw can't hold it as you push wood through.
Wheel size. This isn't a hard limit, but if you have a smaller wheel it causes the blade to have to traverse a tighter curve which causes more flex and shortens the life of the blade. How much? Heck I don't know - I just read a lot :D

Not saying that motor size doesn't matter (I've bogged down my 513, but that was mostly me doing it wrong...) but if you get things setup straight, properly tensioned and all that its more a limit on your feed speed - if you're like me you'll have a relatively low rate you can accurately feed by hand anyway:).

I also like having the slightly wider table the bigger saw allows and now that I've had the saw for a while.. well.. yeah, I still drool over the neighbors 24" saw when I drive by and he has the door open; that thing has a table like an aircraft carrier :D.

Having said all that, the SUV saws do seem to rate well and I've never actually seen them in person - so I'm not dissing that choice at all, just commenting that motor isn't necessarily the final deciding factor.

I also am starting to think that most folks get to hung up on blade size (?heh? :rolleyes:), a blade with the proper tooth size, spacing and kerf that's well tensioned will - in my limited experience - cut better (or at least as good) than a blade at the edge of the saws capabilities. When I got my saw I bought about a $130 of blades in ~5 sizes and played around with them on some different woods. So far the big 3/4" blade has been relegated to wet wood and very occasional use and the 1/2" 3tpi woodslicer blade (which I have since figured out - thanks to SMC! is available as the ~same blade from other sources for ~1/2 the price) has been a real workhorse for resawing (I swap it out with a 1/4" for when I want to do curves) - and I'm not sure if the 3/4" will be finding its way back very often even for some of the other uses now that I've tuned the fence better.

Curt also makes a really good point: don't expect to be able to freehand straight line rips (hey maybe you can, but I ain't anywhere near that good), so figure on either:

planing to get one true edge to start with
straight line ripping with something else to start with to get a true edge (like Curt suggested)
setting up a straight line rip jig (seems plausible to do this as a slight mod to a jog resawing setup.. haven't seen one that I recall.. but seems doable)
?something? else to get a reference edge (I know some folks have a straight board they screw down for straight line ripping on the TS - I'm betting other similar tricks are possible here).

[Mike Holbrook]

I checked into the TS55 EQ Festool saw and ripping 8/4 lumber. Curt you are correct about that saw & fence making great rip cuts. I cut a bunch of 3/4" sheet goods with it. The cutting depth on the saw is a little over 2", but used with the guide rail or parallel guide & rail it will not cut 2" thick material. It is a little smaller saw than your typical US circular saw. There is a parallel guide that does not use the rail, with that guide and a panther blade I am told I could make the 2" deep cut by making multiple passes. I just do not see how a motor that size is going to make lots of cuts in wood that hard, thick and long without damaging it. If I were going to rip larger lumber with a saw like that I would get the larger model. The larger Festool saw cost as much as a good 14" bandsaw though.

Certainly the Festool saw will get used to rip shorter thinner pieces of wood that fit on my Festool or home made cutting tables. I will use the Festool saw to do work many people would do on a table saw. I think the Festool saw is a much safer, easier and less messy saw than a table saw, especially with my MFT table and Festool Vac. I think the Festool saw & table use a little less shop space than a table saw but provide a more versatile, safer alternative. It is much easier to control the dust, as the Festool Vac prevents it from ever getting into the air. I believe the Festool saw and MFT table just work better in a workshop that uses hand tools as well.

The Laguna video says their 14" designation refers to the wheels on the saw as opposed to neck to blade distance, is this typical of european saws? This sort of throws my whole thinking off. The 14" Laguna has a larger motor and larger resaw distance than the Rikon 18". I'm not sure I care about the throat size on a saw of this type as I do not plan to cross cut on it anyway. I have hand saws and a Festool saw to crosscut with.

A larger table might be nice, but I have a limited space for such a saw and the bigger table becomes a problem. I would get this saw with a mobile base so I can move it a few feet to a location between two rooms when I want to rip long boards. It would be blocking a door to leave it there all the time. I plan to use mobile work supports for longer boards. The second room is actually my storage room, so cut pieces can go straight on the wall racks or shelves.

Ryan's comments about freehand straight line rips confuse me. In the video of the Laguna, the guy cuts 3/32 veneer from 2' x 12" tall boards, which seems to me to contradict Ryan's statements. Could the Laguna just be that much more accurate? Is the demo person that much more skilled?....I just do not see how on the one hand these saws could be used to cut veneer but on the other they can not cut a straight line?

I should also say that my lumber supplier will take any wood I buy and surface it on both sides and make one good edge to work from. The price for doing this is cheap enough that I am great with letting them do that for me. If I saw something from a log I can use the Festool saw to get a good edge to work from, certainly I want be working 8 or even 6' logs in my shop.

[Ryan Mooney]

The Laguna video says their 14" designation refers to the wheels on the saw as opposed to neck to blade distance, is this typical of european saws? This sort of throws my whole thinking off. The 14" Laguna has a larger motor and larger resaw distance than the Rikon 18". I'm not sure I care about the throat size on a saw of this type as I do not plan to cross cut on it anyway. I have hand saws and a Festool saw to crosscut with.

This is true of all saws; the "size" is the wheel size (yeah its confusing), I ended up making a giant spreadsheet that listed the following attributes for the saws I was interested in:


resaw height
wheel size (the listed size)
throat size (space to left of the blade)
blade range
table dimensions
tire type (crowned - arguably handles small blades better vs flat which arguably handled larger blades better although both work for both)
motor specs
foot brake or motor brake
guide type (ball bearing, euro roller, ceramic, etc.. - these are obviously changeable)
price

This was immensely helpful when I was deciding what to buy. I think its somewhat out of date at this point (and was pretty incomplete to begin with)...

The LT15 SUV is actually somewhat unusual in that its both a 14" wheel and 14" resaw and has 13.25 inches to the left of the blade. the hammer is a 17" or 18" saw (17 3/8" wheels) with 12 3/8" resaw, and has 16.5" left of the blade. Traditionally the wheel size and the resaw height were somewhat in ratio but with the newer saws resaw focus its often closer to the wheel size than it used to be (a lot of the italian saws are 1:1 like the MM, some of the agazzani and many of the laguna machines).



Ryan's comments about freehand straight line rips confuse me. In the video of the Laguna, the guy cuts 3/32 veneer from 2' x 12" tall boards, which seems to me to contradict Ryan's statements. Could the Laguna just be that much more accurate? Is the demo person that much more skilled?....I just do not see how on the one hand these saws could be used to cut veneer but on the other they can not cut a straight line?


Two different cases. I was speaking about initial cutting from rough stock where you don't have a good reference side to start with. If you look at the veneer cuts (and there are innumerable discussions on here about this as well :rolleyes:) the board the veneer is cut from already has (at least) one (and usually two) true side. A lot of folks will run the board back through the planer between each veneer slice so that the show surface is nice and clean, but .. unless you mess up and have to much wobble or are cutting really really thin veneer - that's generally not totally necessary. the bigger/wider the board the more likely you are to mess up though (speaking for myself at least) and the more likely you'll want to cleanup the show side before taking another cut.



I should also say that my lumber supplier will take any wood I buy and surface it on both sides and make one good edge to work from. The price for doing this is cheap enough that I am great with letting them do that for me. If I saw something from a log I can use the Festool saw to get a good edge to work from, certainly I want be working 8 or even 6' logs in my shop.

Never say never :D Sometimes life gets lucky.

[Van Huskey]

For your use I would suggest the TS75 not the TS55.

All bandsaws refer to the size of the wheels (roughly). All 14" saws have roughly 14" wheels. The European saws are metric sized so they don't match perfectly so the size in inches is an approximation.

There is nothing wrong with the Laguna LT14SUV it is just in a much different class. It is smaller, lighter, cheaper and made in Asia.

I haven't seen a video where the Laguna is cutting veneer freehand BUT it may be there, I have not seen them all. The heart of the question is how you plan to get your initial reference edge. In a full power shop most would either use a jointer if it was rough BUT nearly straight or use a jig on the table saw to get the reference edge. Those that do their ripping an a bandsaw will use the same sort of jig there.

The thing I would say is the way you plan to use the saw the bigger the table the better.

[Carl Beckett]

....certainly I wont be working 8 or even 6' logs in my shop.


Ya. But the first thing I did when I got a quality bandsaw was run and get a bunch of firewood pieces and saw them up. Will make some boxes from it.

Im not sure you will be able to help yourself from trying it (the first time you run across a limb from a decent tree that would otherwise go to the burn pile...)

[Mike Holbrook]

I guess I need to break this down into a two part question:

Part one-a power tool & strategy to eliminate power tools
I am specifically looking for a way to eliminate power tools in my shop, most specifically a table saw. I don't have a planer or jointer and would like to avoid them if there is any way possible. The reason I made this post in the Neander Forum was I know other guys who prefer using hand tools often find a bandsaw to sort of be a power saw to end power saws.

I am fine buying most of my lumber with two good surfaces and at least one good edge. I have a supplier who is happy to do this at a very reasonable cost. So from this perspective I am making the assumption that the larger part of the lumber I buy will have two good surfaces and a good edge. The biggest limitation to hand tools is long rips, which I think a bandsaw excels at, thus my interest. I know the Festool plunge saw is a valuable tool in this regard as well and it is the main powered tool I am specifically designing my shop around. The main issue for me here is whether or not a bandsaw will give me substantially increased ripping ability over the Festool saw? I now have several Festool users telling me they rip long 8/4 hardwood boards with their TS55 saw in one pass without problems. I just bought a Panther blade for the TS55 that I am told will make it a much better ripping saw, although I am also hearing from Festool users that some rip 8/4 hardwood with the standard blade. The Festool guy at WoodCraft yesterday uses a Festool saw and 14" bandsaw and got rid of his table saw.

Part 2-Making lumber from logs
Yes, I have hardwoods, yes I am interested in seeing if I can make some lumber with selected trees...However, I have no idea at this point if I will find the time to follow through on this in any sort of substantial way. I think if I do another project that requires the removal of a significant number of usable trees, I will revisit having a sawyer bring a portable mill out and paying to have trees broken down into boards I can deal with. I know a little about how much work, space...is required to do this in any sort of volume and I doubt I will commit to it. I am not approaching any bandsaw purchase with the idea that I will be attempting to harvest significant amounts of lumber from trees I own.

Maybe this adds perspective to why I posted this on the Neander site.

[Mike Holbrook]

A little update on this thread. I have been pursuing this subject on two fronts. One is to buy a powerful compact bandsaw. The more I have studied my space the more concerned I have become in terms of working this saw in. I think I would have to move the table saw out to have room. I may be able to move it to another building. The big issue is in feed and out feed space. A mobile package might allow me to move it in front of the door to my storage room when I need the space, but I don't know how I would access both sides of the saw....Turns out the Laguna bandsaw does not even come with a blade, adding a fence, blade mobile stand...it is more than the Hammer. Highland Woodworking is advertising a new 14" Pro Rikon bandsaw that is suppose to arrive soon that may be a better option. It appears to have most of the features of their 18" saw plus some. It has the same table, stiffer column, improved fence, foot break, more safety features, 14" vs 12" resaw, led light on saw, high/low speeds, dual miter slots, improved blade guide system & table adjustment, 2.5 Rikon or 3 hp Baldor motor....This saw is priced the same as the 18" saw, substantially less than the Hammer or Laguna. I think I can buy this saw with extras, including mobile stand...and be under $2,000. I can get this saw locally.

My second option is to buy a TS75 Festool Saw. Posters on the Festool site are telling me they process 8/4 lumber with this saw regularly without problems. Although some people say they have ripped finished 8/4 boards with the TS55, others are saying it is not built for that kind of work on a regular basis. Looking at the blade options for the TS55 and the TS75 it certainly looks like Festool has designed the 55 more for cross cutting and the 75 more for deeper longer rips. Certainly the Festool saw is a better option space wise as the saw goes to the work saving the in feed and out feed space. The Festool saw also has the advantage of being able to produce glue ready edges.

A bandsaw is certainly going to be able to rip larger pieces than a TS75. The question is do I need that ability or will the Festool saw handle the majority of the work I have in mind and actually do a better job? The Festool saw is less than half the price. I am certain it would get used a good deal so I suppose I could table the bandsaw idea for now and buy the Festool saw to get the work I have done. I could buy a bandsaw later if I felt I needed it. However, if I really just need the bandsaw it might save money in the long run to just go ahead and buy one now.

Here in the General Woodworking and Power Tool area I am guessing the suggestion will be to buy both power tools ;-)

[Ryan Mooney]

Here in the General Woodworking and Power Tool area I am guessing the suggestion will be to buy both power tools ;-)

:D :D

I'd suggest doing what I do and make a list of pros and cons for each tool and see how they stack up for your usage. When I bought my bandsaw I sat down and worked through (on paper) a half a dozen projects I'd like to do and thought about how the tool could be used in each case. This was immensely helpful as I realized that I really wanted two bandsaws, one for resaw and one for cutting scroll work :rolleyes:, I only bought one but it was a wee bit smaller than what I was initially looking at as a resaw bandsaw...

I have a 75 and its really handy for some stuff.. If I was buying it over I'd have to take a really hard look at some of the other track saws out there, the features are a lot closer than they were when I bought and the cost difference is compelling. Its not that I don't love the festool, its great.. but cost vs feature today... not sure.

A short list to get you started.

F$ pros


clean glue or near glue ready cuts
perfectly straight cuts on rough edges
space efficient
cost less? (maybe... you definitely want to use it with a shop vac otherwise)
Can also be used to break down large sheet goods

F$ cons


limited depth of cut
repeated cuts are slower to setup (imho)
difficult to do rip narrow pieces (can be done but needs a companion board of the same thickness and when thin enough gets slightly sketchy)


BS Pros

can rip thicker pieces
can also cut curves

BS Cons

generally rougher finish cuts
takes space
costs more (probably unless you can find a good deal or used)


Or just embrace your neander side and build a frame saw :D You'll end up in really good shape if you do a lot of ripping :D

[Mike Holbrook]

I have the smaller of the two old Inca bandsaws now. It is great for cutting curves, have 1/8, 1/4, 3/8 & 1/2 in blades and sanding belts for it. Some have used this saw to rip but it has a small aluminum table and is just small, although maybe powerful enough for 2-4" thick. I have just discovered I can get parts for this saw from 2-3 suppliers too. Sort of narrows the bandsaw pros to, can rip thicker pieces, may be faster to set up and cut, although if I have to roll the bandsaw out into a special area and set up in feed and out feed every time I use it I doubt it.

It seems to all come down to whether I will be needing to rip more than 8/4 boards. That is the hard question for me to answer. At the moment I do not see that need.. I have a bunch of projects I am actively buying wood etc. for and I have a bunch more I plan to get to afterwards but none require larger than 8/4 boards, at least that I am aware of. The bench I have been getting all the wood & parts for uses mostly 8/4 wood, so I know I will be sawing a fair amount of it. If the TS75 can rip all the boards for the bench I do not see anything I have planned in the next few years that will require sawing more/larger wood.

What other track saws do you see out there that might do the job the TS75 will do Ryan? I know Dewalt has a track saw but I did not think it was as large or powerful a saw? I guess buying some other saw means a whole different track system....I have a TS55 and a sizable investment in guide rails, router etc. that use that system.

[Gary Radice]

You didn't mention whether you would go with a used saw, but if you can find 20 inch Crescent, Walker-Turner, or the like, it will do all you want for much less than a new saw. I realize that fixing up used equipment isn't for everyone, but if you have the skill and patience the older light industrial machines are a terrific value.

[Ryan Mooney]

It seems to all come down to whether I will be needing to rip more than 8/4 boards. That is the hard question for me to answer.

Yeah that's a hard question and I don't think any of us can really answer it for you. I didn't actually think I had that much use for all the resaw height either, but I've found it useful much faster than I originally thought possible (initially based on my projected project list.. and then things pop up and.. well.. yeah.. I've used all 12" of resaw multiple times in the last month and wouldn't have minded a couple inches more if they were available). A lot depends on how you work and do projects, I'm rather random so stuff happens :rolleyes:... Like I said, working through some examples was really helpful for me... project out a ways and imagine "what might you like to do" and can you do it with a given set of kit? Ultimately no one other than you can really answer that. Since you already have the Inca you're way ahead of where I started bandsaw wise... in that case (space permitting to keep both) I'd probably have gone bigger - the floor space for a 24" saw (or a 20/20.. or..) isn't a LOT larger than what I have in the 17".. but in the end I figured I have space for one bandsaw and compromised... still relatively happy with that decision (once I get a bigger shop we'll revisit this conversation :D).


What other track saws do you see out there that might do the job the TS75 will do Ryan? I know Dewalt has a track saw but I did not think it was as large or powerful a saw? I guess buying some other saw means a whole different track system....I have a TS55 and a sizable investment in guide rails, router etc. that use that system.

Well, if you've already jumped down the F$ rabbit hole; that would make it a lot easier for me to decide on the track saw side... I reckon that if you bought the TS75 and sold the 55 you'd be at least break even or better compared to buying into another system (and not have to deal with yet-another setup/rails/etc.. which pretty much seals the deal from my perspective). At this point its probably close to a no brainer if you want to upgrade to the 75 from the 55 cost wise compared to the other options... Whether that's better or worse for you in the end than a bigger bandsaw, dunno? - that's a question you pretty much have to answer yourself. I bought the 75 after messing up several by-hand cross cuts on a large slab (yeah I spent more on the 75 than the slab was worth.. but.. hey whats a project without a new tool :D and now I have the 75 for other uses as well, it was worth it in the end).

If I was starting from scratch I'd have to at least consider the Dewalt and maybe the Makita. Yes they aren't as beefy as the TS75 but life is compromise.. At 90 (straight up/down cut) the TS55 can do 1 15/16” of depth, TS75 is at 2 3⁄4", the Dewalt is 2-1/8", the makita is 2 3/16", the bosch is uninteresting if you already have the TS55 as its only 1 21/32. I think this part of the discussion is moot though as you've already invested in the festool system (and why step down :cool:).

[Mike Holbrook]

Gary,
I thought briefly about something used. There is Redmond Machinery here in Atlanta that sells remanufactured equipment, but someone seemed to think what they carried was not that great so I kinda dropped the idea. I don't mind used. I spend a bunch of time restoring hand tools, braces, drills, saws, miter box.....I suppose restoring a machine is different though. I just do not know how to go about finding a good used prospect?

Ryan,
I imagine if I had a larger bandsaw I would find ways to use it too. My shop location is at the back of the house and not that easy to get wood into. It would be complicated getting large wood into a saw in my shop. I do have a wood shed, tractor barn, space under a building... and I have thought about some sort of outside saw that could process big wood & logs. I looked into it once but it was kinda pricey, but compared to a big shop bandsaw? I do have a tractor with front end loader, but it want move things into the inside shop. I have been thinking about revisiting the idea of some sort of saw that could be stored in a covered, unheated building outside and used outside. That seems like the ultimate solution to me. The loader & forks for the tractor would be very handy and I could store wood outside in a covered building too. Breaking down big wood outside makes sense to me. I could break things down into project size before taking it into the shop, that would be very helpful.

[Van Huskey]

RE tracksaws the 75 will be your only real move up in the US market others can use the Festool rails and the Dewalt is slightly more powerful then the TS55 but probably doesn't have the depth of cut you need. Some people use their tracksaws for ripping solid stock but having a TS and multiple BS my tracksaws are only used for sheet goods. In a "handtool" shop I think a good bandsaw makes much more sense than a tracksaw long term, it is the perfect corded powertool to have in a handtool shop, buying a TS75 will add VERY few abilities to your shop, a BS will add a huge number of possibilities.

As for the Rikon BS I would not buy it when the Laguna LT14SUV is available and it is also available to you locally through Rockler, and maybe even your Woodcraft (not all of them carry Laguna though). The Rikon is over priced and priced a couple hundred higher with a similar 3hp motor compared to the Laguna, that does not take into account street price of the Rikon since we just don't know yet.

The used market is great but takes some time and education to ensure one is betting a good deal hard to do that quick but IMHO worth the effort.

Good luck.

[John TenEyck]

I'm late to the parade here, but have a couple of pieces of info. for your consideration. First, you cannot adequately tension a 3/4" blade on any 14" saw I know of. But you can tension a 1/2" blade adequately, and they will do everything you need, so a 14" saw with a riser block and 1-1/2 HP motor could meet just about all your needs. Of course, bigger is almost always better, if you have the room and money.

Wood loves to bend when cutting wide boards into smaller ripped sections. Cut quality doesn't matter much at that point because you have to joint it back straight anyway. What I'm getting at is don't base your decision on some quest for cut quality perfection.

And you will be one very tired guy trying to cut green logs into lumber on any bandsaw designed for cutting dry wood. The tables are generally too high and too small. And how would you even wrestle a log onto a typical bandsaw, unless it's some dinky piece of wood from which you won't get much real wood anyway. Moreover, you have to clean out all of the sawdust immediately or everything that can rust will rust. If you want to mill lumber from your trees either get someone to do it for you or get yourself a bandsaw lumber mill or chainsaw mill (which is what I use). Keep all the sawdust, bark, and bugs outside, and air dry it outside as well. You and your bandsaw will be a lot happier.

John

[Rod Sheridan]

And you will be one very tired guy trying to cut green logs into lumber on any bandsaw designed for cutting dry wood. The tables are generally too high and too small. And how would you even wrestle a log onto a typical bandsaw, unless it's some dinky piece of wood from which you won't get much real wood anyway.

John

John, you may want to look at my first post in this thread..........Rod.

[John TenEyck]

John, you may want to look at my first post in this thread..........Rod.

Hi Rod,

I did see your post. As impressive as that is, I consider those pieces of minimal use to me. I need a lot of 6 ft+ boards for my work, and I use several hundred BF a year. How would you hoist the 8 or 10 foot logs I usually cut up onto your bandsaw? It just is not a practical way to process long wood, or to make hundreds of board feet. I'm not criticizing your setup, only its utility for my needs. Perhaps it would be an acceptable option for the OP.

John

[Mike Holbrook]

I have to go through two other rooms and three doors to get to my shop. One room I have to go through is my workout room. It would not be practical to move the heavy workout machines to allow me to get logs or even heavy wood into the shop on any kind of regular basis. I just moved 8/4 x 8' boards into the shop, but I think that is about the limit of what makes sense. I think the option of sawing logs or large boards outside would make sense for me. I just don't think a good bandsaw would do well exposed to the changing temperatures etc. of an unheated but covered space, which is why I started thinking about an outdoor bandsaw mill or chainsaw mill. I do have a metal enclosed storage barn, space under a building, a largely enclosed wood shed. These areas would be great for outdoor processing and storage of larger wood. I might be able to cross cut these boards for actual use with a TS75 at such time as I need them and then move them into the shop.

This text on Highland Woodworkings site regarding the new Rikon 14" Pro saw is what got my attention:

"Its steel frame features a a V-Wedge column design for maximum strength under high blade tension, reducing column deflection. The 10-350 is available in two motor options: a Rikon factory 2.5HP motor and a US made 3HP Baldor motor."

Is this the saw that Van was thinking about? This is a brand new saw that is not even available for about another month. The stats look very similar to the Liguna LT 14 SUV. The Rikon says it has a heavier column the Liguna does not mention this feature in anything I see. The Rikon also has a considerably larger table, appears to have a stronger column, better stock fence....The Liguna saw with less features appears to me to be more money.

I think I have a friend who wants my TS55 so that may help pay for the TS75. Van refers to additional features a bandsaw would provide vs a TS75 but in my environment I do not see what those might be. I have no plan to saw veveerThe portable work on the wood where it is located feature of a TS75 and mobile saw mill do seem veery attractive, but maybe I am missing things?

[John TenEyck]

Holy cow, Mike, trees you can cut on your own land, a tractor/front end loader, buildings/sheds, etc. I'd forget about handling anything but dry lumber on whatever bandsaw you end up with in your shop, and get a bandsaw lumber mill or chainsaw mill, right quick. Why pay for lumber when you can mill all you want for nothing more than your time and fuel, once you have the equipment. And whatever you buy will pay for itself pretty quickly if you build very much. I use a chainsaw mill because it was the cheapest way I could go about it, it's easy to store (I don't have any out-buildings), and I can even take it to the tree if I have to - and have done. I've milled close to 4000 BF with it, but it's hard work, for sure, and if I had your set of circumstances I'd be looking for a bandsaw lumber mill to set up in that shed you mentioned. There is a real sense of satisfaction that comes going from tree to table.

John

[Van Huskey]

Is this the saw that Van was thinking about? This is a brand new saw that is not even available for about another month. The stats look very similar to the Liguna LT 14 SUV. The Rikon says it has a heavier column the Liguna does not mention this feature in anything I see. The Rikon also has a considerably larger table, appears to have a stronger column, better stock fence....The Liguna saw with less features appears to me to be more money.

I think I have a friend who wants my TS55 so that may help pay for the TS75. Van refers to additional features a bandsaw would provide vs a TS75 but in my environment I do not see what those might be. I have no plan to saw veveerThe portable work on the wood where it is located feature of a TS75 and mobile saw mill do seem veery attractive, but maybe I am missing things?

I was talking about the new 10-350 which I am pretty sure is the same saw you refer to. The Laguna LT14SUV is sorta the king of the 14" saws currently and the only thing I see of interest the Rikon has over the SUV is the table size. This is certainly nice but neither are big enough to rip long boards or mill lumber on without a table extension of some sort. With a 3hp motor the Laguna is $200 cheaper than the Rikon. If it were me I would get the Laguna based on the best guides in the business, good track record for that saw and the price savings for the better motor. It is just my opinion though.

A bandsaw is probably the most versatile of the machines in a hobby woodworking shop, possibly bested in that regard by only a router table or shaper. IF you only plan to use it to rip wood then there are other alternatives but I just can't see a shop without a bandsaw and it is usually THE powered machine to have in a neader shop. If you don't plan to exploit the many talents of a bandsaw then it may not be the machine for you.

[Myk Rian]

Heh, I was thinking this would be a thread about human powered bandsaws...
I thought the same thing.

[Mike Holbrook]

John, I have been thinking the same thing lately. The tractor, half my other tools and buildings serve the business on our property, a dog park on 12 acres. 12 acres sounds like a great idea until you have to clear and maintain it. I'm not complaining and it would be very cool to build things from the wood on our land. We even have a fair amount of Black Walnut...I will be checking into some sort of mill too.

Van, I will revisit the Laguna saw. The numbers I was looking at seemed to indicate the Rikon was like $300 less. The blade, a good fence and a wheel system run the price up, so I need to make sure I am comparing apples to apples. Your thoughts about the band saw being the most versatile powered tool are the reason I started this thread. Like so many issues when I discover the $numbers are double what I was hoping then I have to ask myself if the $ is better spent on something related. If there is some sort of bandsaw/mill that has a dedicated support system for large wood pieces and the whole thing can live in a covered area outside that I can load with a tractor...I'm just afraid this alternative could get even more expensive.

[Van Huskey]

Van, I will revisit the Laguna saw. The numbers I was looking at seemed to indicate the Rikon was like $300 less. The blade, a good fence and a wheel system run the price up, so I need to make sure I am comparing apples to apples. Your thoughts about the band saw being the most versatile powered tool are the reason I started this thread. Like so many issues when I discover the $numbers are double what I was hoping then I have to ask myself if the $ is better spent on something related. If there is some sort of bandsaw/mill that has a dedicated support system for large wood pieces and the whole thing can live in a covered area outside that I can load with a tractor...I'm just afraid this alternative could get even more expensive.

Don't forget you can always adjust the price range. The $1600 for the Laguna SUV is really at the top of the 14" food chain, you can get a Grizzly 17" for less or even a Grizzly 19". You may want to look at the Rikon 10-325 14" saw which Highland has for $799 or the 10-345 18" saw for $1199. Both are solid saws (but not without some small flaws) for the prices. If you decide you do want a bandsaw there are lots of options at lots of price points.

[Mike Holbrook]

The Laguna LT14 SUV is available at my local Woodcraft store for $1,595. Woodcraft has a tricked out saw I looked at. It has a Resaw King 1" carbide tipped blade $216, mobility kit $175 and the Laguna Drift Master fence $?. The price is $2,381 for the basic saw and extras, so that is what was wandering around in my mind. The Drift Master fence is suppose to be a great solution to drift adjustment, but it apparently costs about $400. Is the Laguna fence that good? Is it worth spending that kind of money for a great fence? I ask because that has been my largest issue with my small bandsaw.

From other posts in this thread I am wondering about using the 1" Resaw King blade on the 14" SUV saw. I think someone suggested that they would not use more than a 1/2" on a 14" saw? The info. on the Resaw King suggests it is a great resaw blade "cutting through thick, heavy stock like a knife going through hot butter" on this saw. They claim the Resaw King blade design makes a small kerf and does not have some of the problems of more conventional hook toothed bandsaw blades. Do you guys think this blade would actually work well on this saw or do you think it would be hard/impossible to keep it tensioned well enough to perform correctly?

PS
I did a little research on the Laguna Drift Master fence. It looks like it solves several problems I have had sawing on both bandsaws and tablesaws. I like being able to do repeat cuts on the outside of the stock, big bonus in my book. The ease of adjusting the drift is very nice too. I have real issues with my current bandsaw fence with a hand made drift adjuster. Trying to loosen nuts and adjust accurately is a PITA. I studied the blade holding/support system too. I think Laguna has a great system with the 8 ceramic points holding the blade in exactly the right spot. The reviews I read liked it the best too. It appears to me that those two features of the Laguna saw should allow me to cut about as accurately as it can be done with a bandsaw, which is where my worries have been in regard to bandsaws.

[Van Huskey]

I see you have cleared up some of your questions about the DM fence. In all honestly the fence should be called the Veneer Master as that is where it really shines. Lots of people here have the DM and it is worth it BUT that is a relative term. However, if I didn't cut veneer I am not sure I would own one, there are a lot of saws with excellent fences but it indeed can't be beat, it is just expensive. Although, I like the Euro mobole bases with a Johnson bar many people don't and the flatter your floor is the better they do. Many people add machine leveling casters from Great Lakes or Zambus to bandsaws etc instead, they tend to be cheaper as well.

The 1/2" blade max on a 14" saw is really a rule of thumb for the 14" Delta cast clone saws and does not automatically apply to a steel spined saw or other 14" cast saws that are not built as a copy of the "lightweight" Delta. The Resaw King is one of the better resaw blades for vertical bandsaws, arguably the best, it is a relatively thin gauge which makes it better for small wheeled saws and these also allows you to bring it to proper tension without as much absolute pressure so it is easier on the saws spine. That all said I haven't seen a 14" vertical bandsaw I would put a 1" blade on, for the SUV I would only use a 3/4" Resaw King and would prefer it over the thicker gauged Lenox blades for 14" saws. The RK leaves an excellent finish (for a bandsaw) not quite glue ready but close once one is skilled, a steady feedrate is a significant part of getting the last bit of perfection out of a bandsaw.

Here is some info on bandsaw blades in a post I made a while back: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?149862-Lets-talk-bandsaw-blades!&highlight=lets+talk+bandsaw I don't remember if I really talk much about the RK specifically but if you want more info about it I will be happy to ramble on about it and my other favorite resaw blades.

Since you are sorta educating yourself about higher end bandsaw setups two things I would suggest just as examples of what a great (or a good bandsaw highly tuned) can do. http://www.lagunatools.com/feeders/Laguna-Power-Feeder This shows what I think is one of the best resawing/ripping setups on the market for a bandsaw, the DM fence, RK blade and their version of a Comatic AF feeder. The bandsaw could be any number of excellent saws (though I am partial to Italians) but Laguna is really at the front of hobby/light commercial resawing. They are the ones that started the resaw height wars and the reason my Minimax saw has 20" of resaw height.
Another video that gives some insight into what a good bandsaw can do http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?option=com_seyret&Itemid=36&task=videodirectlink&id=8 Look down to the right and click on the video titiled "MM16". I know these are sales pitches but you can begin to see a tiny number of the uses and quality of cut available from a bandsaw. BUT, understand there are a lot of good saws (that cost a lot less then the Italian built saws) that properly tuned can do a GREAT job as well. I can not say they will do as good a job as an Italian or big old US cast iron saws since it would make the money I have spent on bandsaws kinda stupid, but they can get close... :D

Regarding the guides as I have said I really like the Laguna guides, the biggest benefit in the world of guides is being easy to set and the Laguna guides are excellent in the arena as long as you subscribe to allowing them to touch the blade.


I should have mentioned, the DM fence is built as sort of a universal fence and will fit most saws, some require a little more fiddling than others and it is HEAVY so I would not suggest it be placed on a lightweight saw.

[Mike Holbrook]

I talked to a guy at Laguna, he swears the LT14 SUV will handle the 1" blade. He says they sell almost all of them with that blade and would not recommend anything else for general sawing and resawing. He says he will work me up a discounted quote for what I want. He also said they will throw in smaller blades... I am waiting to see exactly what he offers on: LT 14 SUV with Drift Master Fence, 1" Resaw King, Mobile Kit.

His only problem with the saw is the table size, he said the table size becomes an issue if larger pieces are attempted. Since I am not planing on anything more than the 8/4 x 8 boards for my bench, he did not think it would be an issue. I think if I want to slice up logs or larger wood I will get a chainsaw mill for outside. It would be a nightmare even trying to get anything like that into my shop.

[Van Huskey]

I am conservative with blade cross section and smaller saws being able to tension even the relatively small cross section of a 1" RK blade up near 30,000 psi and I know the Laguna company line but the choice is yours and the finish difference will be small. I love the DM fence but keep in mind it may well be overkill unless you plan to do veneer, the stock fence handles drift very acceptably. You may want to search about opinions about the mobility kit if your floors are dead flat I love them.

In the end a SUV with a DM fence is almost exactly the price of the Hammer N4400 which is a much nicer saw and built in Europe, the only way I would get the SUV and DM fence instead of the N4400 would be if I didn't have the small extra space for the Hammer OR my main focus was cutting veneer from relatively small stock.

Back to the RK blade for a second, it has about the best finish of any bandsaw blade but it isn't going to give glue ready finish, absolutely the best blade for veneer especially on a smaller saw but there are far more cost effective blades if ripping is your focus. I would use a bi-metal blade for ripping for cost effectiveness.

[Mike Holbrook]

I understood from the Laguna rep that the Resaw King's physical characteristics mean it does not need to be run as tight as other blades. I am a little surprised that Van finds the finish difference between a Resaw King and a bi-metal blade to be small? Although I may not have plans to cut veneer I frequently want to remove small amounts from a workpiece. For instance, I need to remove 1/16 - 1/8 from both sides of some Purple Heart plane bodies. The table saw tends to burn the wood and leave tracks that are a pain to remove. It sure would be nice to be able to make the cut on the outside of the workpiece and then flip the body over make a couple wheel turns and remove the same amount from the other side. I believe the Resaw King and Drift Master fence could make those cuts with relatively little trouble, unless the Laguna demo I saw was a farce.

It sounds like Van is switching back to suggesting the Hammer N4400. I don't know as much about the Hammer at this point, but it looks to me like it is $500 more. I'm not sure why the Hammer would be a better saw for me? If the Laguna has the best blade guides and the best fence I'm not sure what the Hammer has feature wise that would be more of a benefit to me? It may be a little more heavy duty but I'm not talking commercial usage just regular hobby use. Most of the other features I know about seem to be a wash. I could buy a Hammer and put a Drift Master fence on it but Laguna will discount the Drift Master, Resaw King and their Mobile Kit and throw in some extra blades in some sort of discount package so the over priced extras don't end up being so overpriced buying them from Laguna. So rather than seeing the Laguna & Hammer as equivalent in price the Hammer looks to me to be $500 + the discount and extra blades more expensive.

[Van Huskey]

First, the RK does take less absolute tension than most carbide blades due to its thinner gauge and the resulting smaller cross section, but it still likes to be up about 28,000 PSI to give best results. There is no question the SUV can tension a 3/4" RK to this range but I really begin to question whether it can with a 1" blade, heck I question that on a Minimax which are the heaviest steel saws commonly available new. The extra 1/4" width will give you very little if any finish improvement until you get into really tall resawing which you say you aren't going to do and the SUV just begins to approach in capacity. In the end the choice between a 3/4" and 1" RK is a personal one, and I agree that it is a close call AND Laguna doesn't stand to make any more money on the 1" blade since they are the same price. If we were talking about a thicker gauge band like the Lenox Trimaster I would argue more strongly but as I said it is a close call that I would just go on the conservative side.

My comment about the RK vs a bi-metal blades finish was directed at the relative differences in ripping, which I thought was your primary objective especially since you were considering a track saw in lieu of a bandsaw. If you plan on making cuts that the Nth degree of finish (relative to a BS ability) is important then the RK is one if not the top blade. I see resawing veneer is the RKs strong suit when it comes to ripping on a bandsaw I know I am going to have to touch up the edges one way or another so I would use a more cost effective blade since I an going to dispense with the surface left by the blade anyway. In the end you can use the RK for most of your straight line cuts and if you need a high quality finish blade for some cuts just having the one blade may very well make sense.

Don't get me wrong I love the DM fence but I see its strong suit in cutting veneer and only worth the cost of admission if that is a big part of your work. Most good bandsaws have good fences, ones that although not as easy to compensate for drift as the DM it still is relatively easy and you just need to do it once per blade change. I just never need the precision or accuracy of the DM fence on my bandsaws except when cutting veneer, I have a DM on my veneer cutting bandsaw BUT have never felt the need for one on any of my other bandsaws, it is just overkill, I don't find myself going to the saw with the DM because of the fence, the other fences work perfectly well for all the other tasks that I need a fence for on a bandsaw. There is nothing mis-leading about the Laguna video, the DM does what they say.

The Hammer should be right about $400 more than the SUV so without the addition of $400 for the DM they should be pretty much the same money and I only revisit it since you are considering spending the same money of the SUV and DM. As for the fence the Hammer has a perfectly fine fence and like the SUV I wouldn't replace either with a DM unless I was cutting veneer. When it comes to guide over the years I have become a student of the school that thinks guides aren't as critical as people think on a high quality saw with a high quality blade, my main focus is how easy they are to adjust, good Euro guides are almost as easy (or as easy if you use some approches) to set as the Laguna guides. I would not turn down a set of Laguna guides on any bandsaw but I haven't bothered to change out the Euro guides on my MM20 since the benefits are small or non-existent again compared to a quality Euro guide which the Hammer also has. The Hammer is a VERY well built saw which is built in Europe, the fit and finish and overall quality is higher than the Asian built LT14SUV BUT I would rather have the Laguna saws built in Italy but they are a price jump up from the Hammer. The Hammer is currently on sale for 1995 and the SUV plus DM is about 1945. My point was if you are considering ~2K for a BS and a fence I would get the Hammer since it is a better overall "system" for everything except veneer work which you say you don't do. If you can wait until August the Hammer N4400 they will bring to IWF may not be spoken for and you can get a deal on it.

In the end understand I like the LT14 SUV, possibly the best 14" bandsaw produced today, but I see the Hammer as a significant step up in quality, one of the true best buys in European built saws and would prefer it over the SUV for my shop, I only revisit it because I think for 2K and the uses you describe you will be happier with the Hammer and its stock fence over the SUV and DM fence, if you were planning on doing a lot of veneer the equation changes. But then don't take my word, the thread has dried up to some extent and we seem to be just having the conversation alone. Why not post a new thread and do a poll, explain your intended uses and get peoples opinions as to what they would pick for those uses, the Hammer N4400 or the Laguna LT SUV with DM. You and I know what I would pick but that is based on my experience and certainly bias, a hundred or so opinions may clear the water, or possibly add more mud, who knows until you ask.

[Mike Holbrook]

I appreciate your thoughts Van. This is a research project for me and I am putting the information to use as I have obviously explored several avenues for solving those woodworking challenges I have and have reason to think I will have. I am trying to view this in terms of solving woodworking challenges without getting overly invested in a specific bright shinny new machine. I have to take the information offered which is essentially features about products and try to apply them to my future in woodworking which may grow, change. At the same time features are often benefits to one person's situation but not to another's.

I moved away from considering the Hammer when I was trying to find something local, for several reasons. Maybe I will call Hammer tomorrow and see what kind of deals they offer. I would still like to buy local but if it means I have to take the store "demo" model with everything on it at list price, vs some better deal from Laguna that saves me money and gets me extra blades I may consider buying direct. So I guess that kinda opens it up to the Hammer to some extent. I have wood in the shop yearning to be worked so I don't think the wait and see if I can work a deal at a wood show option appeals to me.

My personal experience with the bandsaw I have does influence my thoughts. Two issues I have with my saw are the blade guide system and adjusting the fence, so those are two main issues I know I want to solve. Particularly the fence issues which keep me from using my existing saw for many projects. I have used my shop more for construction related work for the last 15 years but I am finishing up the last of those projects and moving to cabinets and furniture. Still I am having a hard time imagining cutting veneer. To be perfectly frank I'm not even sure I know why I would want to cut veneer. Thus far I have bought those tools I specifically needed to do construction projects and felt would earn a financial return. The larger woodworking machines are in a little different decision making arena where it is hard to say I can show a $2000 savings to justify the cost of the bandsaw. At the same time I am at retirement age and although I have no plans to "retire" I am growing much pickier about what I spend time doing. I would like a bandsaw that I enjoy using, like I enjoy using the Festool plunge saw, which just does the job of cutting sheets goods much better and faster, making it more enjoyable.

If Laguna's Driftmaster fence, Resaw King blade and ceramic guides make my time working with a bandsaw more fun and less effort I don't mind spending more for them. I have a harder time relating to specific features of the Hammer that will make the work easier and more fun, but I will study on it a little more. Features like general build quality and better overall system are hard for me to relate to in terms of actual benefits. I'm 62 I am guessing either saw will out last me. I relate better to those specific challenges I know I have faced with bandsaws and tablesaws in the past. I am here though because I want to learn about specific benefits various bandsaw features may have for me that I have not thought of, especially in regard to making the "work" faster, more accurate and more fun.

[Van Huskey]

Mike, I get where you are coming from with the fence and the guides, bad fences and guides will indeed push one to get the "best" when new purchase time comes around! There is nothing sexy about the Hammer just like there is really nothing sexy about any of the European built bandsaws, they don't stand out head and shoulders above the rest when viewed on paper. For an excellent example compare the Laguna LT16HD (Italian) and Laguna LT16 3000 (Asian), on paper the 3000 has more bells and whistles and costs $1,100 less.

I think you will be very happy with a SUV and the DM fence is a pleasure to use but my experiences and bias leads me to view the Hammer as a better saw even with the Euro guides and stock fence. The saws you are shopping are fine saws and you can't really make a bad choice, you just have to pick the one that makes you happy!

[Mike Holbrook]

I am down to two saws. I finally decided the larger Festool saw is just a much more limited option that does not give me much more than I have now, like several other posters have suggested. I am confident I can get all the cut quality I need from either bandsaw I am considering. If I decide I want to process logs or larger lumber later on, I will get some sort of chain saw mill I can use outside.

I talked to Hammer today Van. They are suppose to be sending me a quote and I have one from Laguna. I don't think they are going to offer any discount, where Laguna is offering half price shipping, free blades, discounts on the Driftmaster Fence, and other extra items, somewhere around 3-4 hundred, which just about covers the cost of the DM fence. The Hammer sales rep was selling quality and service. I bounced the what do you think about running a 1" blade on the N4400 question past him. His answer was pretty close to the Laguna reps. He said they have a reinforced spine that can handle it. So regardless of what blade I decide to run I know both companies feel they have improved their saws ability to handle additional pressure from tightening larger blades down extra firm.

I am having second thoughts about the mobility base. I am going to either sell my table saw or move it to my work building to free up room for the bandsaw. I was reading Jim Toplin's book "The New Traditional Woodworker" which gave me the encouragement I needed. Without the tablesaw I believe I can arrange a permanent location for the bandsaw and a planing and joinery bench.

I am hoping I can talk Woodcraft into a better deal on something here in town but I'm not holding my breath. I am a little concerned about damage to the saw during shipment which I understand is not uncommon. Laguna has a diagram showing how they wrap the whole saw for shipment on a pallet with a wooden frame all the way around the saw and their rep said they handle any problem to the saw during shipment, shipping a brand new saw if there is any serious damage.

[Van Huskey]

I think you will be happy with whatever saw you purchase between those two. In either case I wouldn't be concerned about shipping damage, the anecdotal evidence may be scary but the real numbers will show it is unlikely. My approach to blade choice is indeed conservative but backed with a little experience and objective testing but I will concede many people do get fine results with wider blades than I would attempt on specific saws, my approach is based on balancing losing so very little with a 3/4" vs 1" blade and the potential for reduced finish quality with tension that is too low. This applies to the heaviest built steel spined saws around. There are VERY few saws I have seen that can properly tension a carbide tipped blade at the width the manufacturer specifies as the maximum width the saw can handle, steel spined and massive old cast saws both.

I look forward to hearing about the deal you are able to squeeze out of Laguna and equally look forward to seeing pictures of your new saw. The manual that comes with the SUV is woefully inadequate especially in the assembly portion and the SUV does require more assembly than most bandsaws, however Laguna has an excellent set of videos on assembly and setup of the SUV, try to watch them a couple of times and have them handy when you set out to put her together. Also an extra pair of hands for putting the motor is is very nice!

[Van Huskey]

Mike, sent you a PM with some info RE tension.

[Mike Holbrook]

I ended up buying a Laguna L14 SUV from my local WoodCraft store. The store had a floor model, unused, with the DriftMaster fence, Mobility Kit and 1" Resaw King blade on it. They cut me a deal that I thought was better for me than buying direct. I realized that resawing and cutting veneer might be something I will want to get into and I think I can do both with the Laguna saw. I think the Hammer outfitted with extras that would allow me the same veneer cutting ability would have run way over my budget. I went a little over budget to get the Laguna with all the extras.

I am handling my shop space challenges for now by setting the bandsaw up in my two car garage where there is plenty of space to saw larger boards. The garage is actually right over my shop and I have a 230 line in the garage that runs from my shop panel. I believe I can work the Laguna bandsaw into my shop after I reorganized everything there if I feel the need. The tablesaw will either get sold or moved to my business building, where it has been helpful for ripping thin trim boards...

I tried ripping a 2x10 with the TS55 and although I did it I would not enjoy doing it on a regular basis. Although the TS75 would work better, I just decided that option would not buy me very much for my money. I figured I would end up with a larger bandsaw sooner or later anyway which would make the TS75 purchase extraneous.

Thanks everyone, especially Van, for all the help.

[Rod Sheridan]

Congratulations Mike, you have a nice that should keep you happy.....................Regards, Rod.