Belt Grinder for sharpening

[Christian Castillo]

Hi,

I noticed how on many knife message boards, everyone is successfully using belt grinders with belts up to 15 or 6 micron belts, then a leather honing belt with compound, and getting the best edges they ever had. Would this approach work equally well with planes and chisels? Has anyone here tried? Thanks for your time.

[David Weaver]

It works fine for planes and chisels, but it can be a detriment for accuracy in keeping the edge of the smoother straight if you use it all the way through to final polish.

For cambered irons, I use a 1200 grit trizact belt and either just a couple of lateral swipes of the edge on a hard finish stone, or some treatment on a leather disc with the green stuff from LV.

Works great on HSS.

For things that need to be accurate, like a smoother iron, you can't duplicate the accuracy and geometric perfection you'll get with a stone for the polishing steps.

I've had the 1x42 unit that LV sells and the kalamazoo 1x42, i like the kalamazoo better, but it does cost a little more.

Great unit with a leather belt to do kitchen knives, though, but even off the 1200 grit trizact belt and a hard stropping, they're good - especially if your wife butchers edges like mine does. There's no reason to go to a polish, she can remove keenness in minutes.

[paul cottingham]

Love my belt grinder. I have the LV one, and use it mostly for stropping, and sharpening knives. I also use it on chisels.

[Wallis Hampson]

Belt sanders work like a champ for flattening the back of drawknives that may have a bow.

[Christian Castillo]

It works fine for planes and chisels, but it can be a detriment for accuracy in keeping the edge of the smoother straight if you use it all the way through to final polish.

For cambered irons, I use a 1200 grit trizact belt and either just a couple of lateral swipes of the edge on a hard finish stone, or some treatment on a leather disc with the green stuff from LV.

Works great on HSS.

For things that need to be accurate, like a smoother iron, you can't duplicate the accuracy and geometric perfection you'll get with a stone for the polishing steps.

I've had the 1x42 unit that LV sells and the kalamazoo 1x42, i like the kalamazoo better, but it does cost a little more.

Great unit with a leather belt to do kitchen knives, though, but even off the 1200 grit trizact belt and a hard stropping, they're good - especially if your wife butchers edges like mine does. There's no reason to go to a polish, she can remove keenness in minutes.

David, I always thought the function of a belt grinder would work best for coarse removal/repair and for powered stropping, I had a feeling that stones would be better for edges that require accuracy. I've noticed some people have managed to use the LV grinding jig, do you believe this could this introduce the element of accuracy that is missing? I'm considering purchasing a belt grinder, but my intention really is to use it on cambered irons, knives, and for fixing up bevels, still, I got curious as to whether I could use it on my chisels and non-cambered irons, the more uses I can relegate to the machine, the more economic it begins to look. Do you mind telling me why you prefer the Kalamazoo 1sm? It is currently on sale at a website, and the website has a 10% coupon, bringing the machine down to about 215$ shipped, which puts it in my budget.

[paul cottingham]

I use mine on my chisels all the time, in fact it is now my preferred tool for sharpening them. With a guide, (or a good, steady hand!) you could do plane blades as well.
With a leather strop, I can get blades sharp enought to shave with, with ease.

[Mike Holbrook]

The Kalamazoo has been a favorite of knife and tool people for a long time, some prefer it over much more expensive machines. Having said that; I bought a belt sander/grinder from Graingers. I got the one I got because it will work with 1 or 2" belts and has a grinding disc too. Some even use 4" belt sander/grinders...These are very versatile tools that can handle a wide variety of chores. The belts available for these machines have improved dramatically in recent years. The Trizact belts David mentions being a prime example. With leather belts and buffing compounds you can get to very fine polishing. Still I use my stones for most normal sharpening of plane blades and chisels because I do not want to remove a bunch of steel. Those belts are moving very fast and things happen faster, they are just not needed for normal sharpening IMHO.

I think over using the belts will just end up grinding blades away too fast, make more errors and reduce accuracy. I have been working with mine for over a year and still have to be very careful and go slow. I assume I will finish anything I do on my belts on a stone. I have been looking for better jigs and techniques to get more out of mine but I have no thoughts of giving up my stones. If you want to grind and polish a whole knife blade from a blank yea, if you just want to touch up the edge on your pocket knife, chisel or plane blade I think it is too much.

[Niels Cosman]

I use a 800 grit AlO trizact on my wet belt sander to sharpen my turning tools

[Aaron Rappaport]

I have wondered whether a belt grinder is substantially neater than a high speed dry grinder. It seems like they both spew metal, but my bench grinder also spews a lot of wheel grit, especially when I freshen up the wheel, and even though I face the grinder towards a wall when I use it. For me, this is a problem because my grinding station is about 2' away from our laundry machines. I'd sure value hearing what people's experience with the belt grinders is in terms of neatness.

[Mike Brady]

They are great for cambered and curved blades on planes turning tools and knives. I also do primary bevels with mine, but finish with stones. Here is a scrub iron I did:http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee300/finefettle/Japanning009.jpg

[David Weaver]

I have wondered whether a belt grinder is substantially neater than a high speed dry grinder. It seems like they both spew metal, but my bench grinder also spews a lot of wheel grit, especially when I freshen up the wheel, and even though I face the grinder towards a wall when I use it. For me, this is a problem because my grinding station is about 2' away from our laundry machines. I'd sure value hearing what people's experience with the belt grinders is in terms of neatness.

No, not neater. Stuff goes everywhere regardless of the machine.

My wife's car is about 5 feet behind my belt grinder. I had ground a piece of steel into a specialized marking knife for tracing the iron on moulding planes, and didn't notice that metal dust had settled in a thin layer on the car.

My wife took the car out, drove it around in a light rain and came back, and the dust beaded up on the surface of the car and oxidized (into rust spots), and the rust spots actually oxidized pocks into the clearcoat! I had to buff it out with polishing compound and a rotary buffer.

I have seen the good idea that someone else had to put rare earth magnets near wheels and belts to collect dust. I don't know how well that works, but you will have dust behind the grinder no matter where you use it, and some will settle in front, probably (though I haven't had much in front of the grinder, most of it gets spun behind both the grinder and the belt grinder).

[David Weaver]

the Kalamazoo 1sm? It is currently on sale at a website, and the website has a 10% coupon, bringing the machine down to about 215$ shipped, which puts it in my budget.

Just my opinions:

(I think the LV one is actually made by someone named velo tools or something, so using the term LV is probably not quite right, they're just retailing it).

Motor - better on the kalamazoo, it's a baldor motor. You'll likely go with an AO smith nema 48 frame motor on the LV grinder (1/4 hp) because it makes economic sense. The baldor motor is stronger, even more than the hp difference indiciates

Rest - the LV machine has a better rest. There is enough stamped steel in the platen area of the kalamazoo to move the rest around to be able to get a steeper angle on the rest (IIRC, it goes around 45 degrees before it bottoms out - i use it freehand when I use it, so I don't pay much attention to the rests unless I'm grinding to a line on steel, and then I use it at 90 degrees, anyway)

Tracking / Wheels - the kalamazoo has better wheels and the belt tracks with a lot more conviction. You can move the belt around on the LV machine, you you will end up learning to adjust how you use the iron on the belt to keep it tracking in the middle. Not a big deal, but the kalamazoo is better.

Speed - the kalamazoo belt speed is a little slower. I prefer the speed it moves at, just because the higher speed on the LV grinder would be suitable with double the power, I think. With a fine belt, if you use an iron on the platen, you can burn it pretty easily with either one, I'd think. Off the platen with higher tension on the belt, and there's no real issue.

I got my kalamazoo from enco, i don't know where it actually ships from. Personally, given the choice again without having bought both, I would only buy the LV if i already had a free motor and I was on a tight budget. It's not a bad machine, i just like the kalamazoo better in use.

[John Gornall]

The LV belt sander comes from Viel tools: http://www.vieltools.com/?l=ZW4

Click the english button top right if you don't read French

They make some attachments for the sander as well a a version that mounts to a small grinder - could be a space saver having the belt on one end and a grinder on the other.

[Aaron Rappaport]

Here is a link to a previous thread on this list that discussed the Viel belt sander and its attachments. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?114079-Sharpening-with-Belt-Sander-Grinder

I was particularly interested in the post by Steve Friedman, 4'th from the bottom, which discusses how to modify the Logersol Knife Jig to use it to flatten the backs of chisels and plane irons. If I'm not mistaken, you'd have to get not only that jig ($35), but also the handwheel with screw ($16). So, more money, but gee I hate back flattening.

[Bob Strawn]

I have and love the Grizzly G1015 Knife Belt Sander. (http://www.grizzly.com/products/Knife-Belt-Sander-Buffer/G1015) You can order extra Parts and then modify them and make a good range of jigs. The 72" belt is nice, longer belts give more time for a spot on the belt to cool before it gets back to grinding.

That said, if you got the money, Beaumont Metal Works makes the KGM. (http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/) Sweet tool that!



Bob

[Bill White]

Sure sounds like a lot of expense as well as "fall out" for a rather simple task. Now don't get your knickers knotted up. I'm just tryin' to justified expense vs: results.
My old Makita waterstone dino gets me where I wanna go. Stropping after grinding (such as it is) makes some pretty darned good edges. Oh well..............
30 secs vs: 1 minute????
Bill

[george wilson]

I'd not care to use my Square Wheel for sharpening,though some seem to be happy with it. My tools will likely last a lot longer just using bench stones(after grinding a new bevel IF needed).

A caution about those thin Mylar grinding belts: NEVER try to present a sharp knife EDGE UPWARDS to them. They will get cut in two,and will give a VIOLENT slap(at least on my Square Wheel unit). You could get a nasty,unclean cut if the edge of the belt hits you when it blows up. I blew up a few of those thin Mylar belts. Lucky to not get hurt,or get the sharp knife grabbed and thrown who knows where!! Doesn't have to be TOO sharp if it's moving fast.

[David Weaver]

trizact belts are a little like that on the edges, though not as sharp. You have to keep your fingers away from the edges of the belts when you're sharpening, though, or they'll give you a turbo papercut that's not neat and clean like a papercut.

Mylar sounds 10x worse.

[Mike Holbrook]

Certainly a belt sander can toss just as much steel around as a stone grinder. I think, however, that someone use to the pieces of stone and or water tossed around by popular stone grinders will find a belt grinder, particularly with trizact type belts, less messy. The compound that does the cutting on these belts does not crumble and get airborne as easily. All the knife enthusiasts and custom knife makers are pushing this technology as shaping and finishing the harder and tougher steels is becoming quite a challenge. Obviously guys making knives via stock removal are removing more steel in more complicated patterns than we wood workers do. We certainly stand to gain from their impact on this tool and the belts they use even if we may not like the prices sometimes.

[Robert LaPlaca]

Hi,

I noticed how on many knife message boards, everyone is successfully using belt grinders with belts up to 15 or 6 micron belts, then a leather honing belt with compound, and getting the best edges they ever had. Would this approach work equally well with planes and chisels? Has anyone here tried? Thanks for your time.

I have one of the Viel units that LV sells.. I find the unit is way too aggressive for chisels (at least for me), have to confess after seeing how aggressive the unit was on a chisel, I wouldn't think about attempting to sharpen one of my LN plane blades... On the upside, the unit does a killer job sharpening turning tools (HSS), I use a Wolverine Jig and the Klingspor Gold 120 grit or the Zirconia 120 grit..

[David Weaver]

That belt speed you're talking about is why I like the kalamazoo grinder better.

That said, you can still do plane irons just fine with the viel grinder if you stick to grinding them and doing final honing elsewhere.

And cambered irons where you don't have to be as perfect about the geometry, it also does well.

It does burn tools more easily than the kalamazoo grinder, though, especially if you're using a finer grit against the platen - it's easier to burn a tool against the platen with a trizact belt than it is to burn a tool on a dry grinder with an old gray wheel.

[Zach England]

I mostly use mine for kitchen knives.

[Robert LaPlaca]

That belt speed you're talking about is why I like the kalamazoo grinder better.

That said, you can still do plane irons just fine with the viel grinder if you stick to grinding them and doing final honing elsewhere.

And cambered irons where you don't have to be as perfect about the geometry, it also does well.

It does burn tools more easily than the kalamazoo grinder, though, especially if you're using a finer grit against the platen - it's easier to burn a tool against the platen with a trizact belt than it is to burn a tool on a dry grinder with an old gray wheel.

I agree,its kind of like a scary sharp grinder.. I tried to use much finer grits of the Klingspor Gold product to see if I could slow down the cutting action using 320 or 400 grits, the finer grits only slowed down the cutting action maybe 10-15% over 120, but the heat generated was maybe on the order of two to three times..The machine really needs a way to slow down the belts speed...

[george wilson]

Don't get me wrong,I have spent many,many hours grinding on belt grinders. The knives I have posted here have all been ground from the solid with a Square Wheel grinder.

However,I don't use one for sharpening knives. And,I have a dedicated dust collector for mine,and a large inverted pyramid scoop just below the belt to collect the dust. Belt grinders with good,sharp belts are many times faster than grinding wheels.

[paul cottingham]

I have one of the Viel units that LV sells.. I find the unit is way too aggressive for chisels (at least for me), have to confess after seeing how aggressive the unit was on a chisel, I wouldn't think about attempting to sharpen one of my LN plane blades... On the upside, the unit does a killer job sharpening turning tools (HSS), I use a Wolverine Jig and the Klingspor Gold 120 grit or the Zirconia 120 grit.. I sharpen chisels with my viel all the time with great results using a 330, 1200, and leather honing belt. In fact the grinder is now my goto tool for sharpening chisels. YMMV of course.

[Karl Fife]

That belt speed you're talking about is why I like the kalamazoo grinder better...It does burn tools more easily than the kalamazoo grinder, though, especially if you're using a finer grit against the platen.

So many people seem to own the Kalamazoo 1SM belt sander. I'm curious if any of you considered the 2" version of this product before purchasing, and if so, what made you choose the 1" version? I gather that the 1x42 machine is an optimal configuration for a TON of things from sanding inside corners to slack-belt sanding of inside curves, but I wonder if you had a wider belt?

It sounds like the higher speed of the 2" version *might* be more of a detriment than a benefit for some things. I know that you can mount a 1" belt on the 2" machine (either by ripping a 2" belt lengthwise or buying 1x48). Is there a case to be made for owning having BOTH?

There's a really interesting 1" and 2" version of the sander assembly that bolts right on to a Baldor grinder. A nice feature is that The belt assembly can be tipped forward or backward (to fully horizontal) if desired. That seems like it could be useful, but It's all too theoretical for me right now. I've briefly used the 1SM in a friend's shop and really liked it.

You (and others) have used this Kalamazoo 1SM tool for a while. With your experience, how would you guide me (as if I were your own son)? I don't mind investing in my shop if it will result in a better flexibility & possibilities. I'm not the guy who "just" wants an effective solution for sharpening turning tools--I'm always doing something new, and "versatility" has paid off for me in the past.

Any thoughts from the anyone would be much appreciated.

[David Weaver]

If I only had one thing in the shop it would be a 2" belt grinder with the ability to use a platen and a solid wheel, and it would be variable speed.

I got the 1sm purely because of price. I wanted something to use to make moulding plane irons and other things that were fairly soft and needed light grinding, and had the viel grinder but junked the motor on mine doing something stupid. Always felt like the viel was a little too fast and wanted a better motor, too, and the 1sm was $225 shipped from enco. That's just crazy cheap.

Money no object, though, I'd have something bigger with variable speed and the ability to grind either on the wheel, loose unbacked belt or on the platen - it was purely a money decision.

[Karl Fife]

Thanks for your thoughts! Crazy cheap indeed! What if you could have TWO things in the shop? :-) Let's say you were magically "gifted" your dream a 2x72 Beaumont KMG belt grinder with VFD and all, would this 1SM unit collect dust OR does it actually excel at certain things, such as sanding inside corners and slack-belt sanding inside curves. In other words, I wonder if a 2" belt sander would actually be worse, making you go instead to your trusty 1SM for many things. What do you think? I don't have enough experience to make a good judgement, so I appreciate your insight. If you think you would still use the 1SM a lot (with the hypothetical KMG in your shop), do you think you would prefer that the 1SM's belt be mounted to a Baldor grinder setup with the tilting mount (like the 1SK6)? Would the tilting aspect (as well as better motor clearance) aspect really matter much in your experience? Crazy cheap? As it turns out that I can get a 1SM, a 2FSM or the baldor-grinder-mounted 2SK7 really cheap right now too.

[David Weaver]

I might be a bad person to ask of that, because in a situation where a corner exists and not much metal needs to be removed, I get great pleasure from filing to a finish. A good file is predictable, a joy to use and always as reliable as your eyes and arms.

If I had two belt grinders and one was a one-inch grinder, though, I'm sure I could find uses for it. If for nothing else, to do things that might ruin much more expensive belts that go on a 2x72 grinder, or to use as a fine honing machine (the 1sm is a great grinder to have a trizact belt on for fore planes and jacks - just run the whole curve along the belt for 15 seconds and then chase the burr off with a good very high grit finish stone, and all of the sudden you have very sharp curved irons while protecting a laziness gene).

All that said, I would LOVE to have a VS Beaumont grinder like you describe. I make enough tools that I could use it every couple of months and really enjoy it, and it might open up some basic knife making, which would be nice.

[Tony Shea]

I wouldn't mind having one of these belt grinders to aid in shaping knife edges. I used to make my own hunting type knives with different handles/scales and was stuck shaping the edges with paper on glass and stones. I eventually started using my belt sander with a jig I built to keep angles consistent. But a rig like the Kalamazoo and Viel would def be nice for this purpose as well as re-shaping edges of my chisel and plane blades that are in rough shape or have developed a bad angle. I would miss my hollow grind though so I would still probably use the 6" grinder for most blades on my woodworking tools. It might be nice though to get a flat initial bevel on some Japanese blades. Once in a while I'll get some Japanese chisels or plane blades that have a bevel angle that is way off of what I want, sometimes as high as 38* and sometimes as low as 20*. Some Tsunesaburo blades I've gotten had the super low bevel angle that wouldn't even touch hardwood with chipping. Changing this bevel by hand is an incredible workout.

Dave, I swear you must have a small fortune wrapped up in your sharpening supplies. It'd be nice to have the options available that it sounds as though you have.

[george wilson]

The Wilton Square Wheel belt grinder can be configured with a flat platen,or an 8" contact wheel. I also made a hump shaped steel block that I can screw to the flat platen. It has a large radius shape ground on it that simulates grinding on a large old time cutler's wheel. The belt runs over it just fine. I have made Bowie knives on it that look like they were made on large wheels.

[David Weaver]

I wouldn't mind having one of these belt grinders to aid in shaping knife edges. I used to make my own hunting type knives with different handles/scales and was stuck shaping the edges with paper on glass and stones. I eventually started using my belt sander with a jig I built to keep angles consistent. But a rig like the Kalamazoo and Viel would def be nice for this purpose as well as re-shaping edges of my chisel and plane blades that are in rough shape or have developed a bad angle. I would miss my hollow grind though so I would still probably use the 6" grinder for most blades on my woodworking tools. It might be nice though to get a flat initial bevel on some Japanese blades. Once in a while I'll get some Japanese chisels or plane blades that have a bevel angle that is way off of what I want, sometimes as high as 38* and sometimes as low as 20*. Some Tsunesaburo blades I've gotten had the super low bevel angle that wouldn't even touch hardwood with chipping. Changing this bevel by hand is an incredible workout.

Dave, I swear you must have a small fortune wrapped up in your sharpening supplies. It'd be nice to have the options available that it sounds as though you have.

Options are nice. Not a necessity, but nice, definitely. Between the viel and the kalamazoo 1" grinders, the viel has a nicer rest but every other thing on the kalamazoo is better (wheels, motor -by far, belt speed, ...) and you can make your own rest out of just about anything and attach it to the kalamazoo because all of the stuff between the wheels is just stamped steel (you can drill it wherever you need to, attach whatever you want).

There's nothing we won't try to sharpen here, though. Even plastic scissors that come in kids sets (and just like everything else, they are much easier for kids to use if they're reasonably sharp, even though they don't exactly hold an edge).