Christmas in March: Molding Planes

[Jim Neeley]

Christmas came a little early (late?) this week when a shipment of molding planes arrived from Patrick Leach. There's a half-set of H&R's by Routledge (Brimingham, England), a set of beads by Griffiths (Norwich, England) and a set of rabbets by Sandusky (US).

Let the mold grow! :D

I've attached a couple of pictures.

Jim

[David Weaver]

Wow..that's a jump start for mouldings and details, huh?

[Brent VanFossen]

Looks like you had better block out some time for sharpening. Nice haul.

[Brian Cameron]

Nice haul...what a way to expand the collection!

[Jim Neeley]

Wow..that's a jump start for mouldings and details, huh?

Just one more attempt to reduce my electron usage, David. While my fairly high-tech router table (Incra fence, etc.) will do it over-and-over, very fast and perfectly repeatable, there isn't any personal satisfaction in it.

The the swoosh of a plane blade is almost a spiritual experience and I think that a few small imperfections showing it was hand-made is a real value-add; my own form of artistic expression.

That's why I don't really care how long it takes me to make something; I just want to feel it is "right" when I'm done.

What's your take on molding planes, David?

Jim in Alaska

[Jim Neeley]

Looks like you had better block out some time for sharpening. Nice haul.

It'll be my entry into the world of sharpening profiled hand tools, which it why I had Patrick throw in a couple of unmatched planes for practice, so if I goober up my first attempt I haven't goobered up a plane in a 75-150 year old set. To help me along though I've also been watching Larry William's DVD on "Sharpening Profiled Hand Tools" and have some conical and slipstones on the way.

Jim

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I just started watching that Larry Williams DVD today. It's a good one.

[Jack Curtis]

How is this a gloat? IIRC, Leach charges pretty fat prices. Or maybe he sells fairy dust enchantment these days?

[Jim Neeley]

I just started watching that Larry Williams DVD today. It's a good one.

I think so too, Joshua, covering everything from a plane camber to a complex regrind, including heat treating. I'm looking forward to watching it again, to focus on the details.

Jim

[David Weaver]

What's your take on molding planes, David?

Jim in Alaska

Well, so far the only thing I've used hollows and rounds for is cutting a couple of simple coves, and cutting the cove on....other hollows and rounds :rolleyes:

Beads don't count, i guess. But a beading plane is fast and satisfying to use.

So, definitely not the person to ask about using them for complex mouldings, the closest I've come to them is grand delusions.

[Jim Neeley]

Well, so far the only thing I've used hollows and rounds for is cutting a couple of simple coves, and cutting the cove on....other hollows and rounds :rolleyes:

Beads don't count, i guess. But a beading plane is fast and satisfying to use.

So, definitely not the person to ask about using them for complex mouldings, the closest I've come to them is grand delusions.

Beading planes were what led me down the slope of wooden planes in the first place.. then I got to thinking of using them for roundovers... then...

You get the picture, eh? :rolleyes:

[Matt Hankins]

I'm very jealous. When my bank account allows, a set of H's &R's are on my quest list. I have been successful without, but the projects do come up where they would be helpful. For instance the attached 11" crown.

Matt

[Rob Lee]

How is this a gloat? IIRC, Leach charges pretty fat prices. Or maybe he sells fairy dust enchantment these days?

Hi Jack -

Price isn't everything.

I buy from Pat Leach regularly, knowing that I'm paying for his expertise and vetting of a tool's authenticity and condition. I place a high value on being able to buy with confidence. If you find the prices acceptable - then it's a good buy for you.

Sure looks like a crisp clean set of H&R planes to me...

Cheers -

Rob

[David Weaver]

I haven't seen too many H&R sets of that quality, matching, cheaply anyway. You can basically pay the piper or make them yourself.

I fell into the trap of buying a huge pile of H&Rs thinking I could match them up to each other. Total waste of time. I still have them, they were on the bottom of one of my racks, and a bottle of dykem burst above them on the racks and subsquently fell to the floor, splashing all over them. what a waste that was!

Now I'm slowly working my way through building a set, and if I didn't like building tools so much, an older set of english planes like these are probably what I would look for. It's nice to not pay dealer price if you can find them in person somewhere, but if you can't, and you aren't buying them from someone who uses the planes, then you never know what you're going to get buying on the cheap.

[Jack Curtis]

I was simply saying "Where's the gloat?" Seems to me that gloating requires something more than buying a set of tools for a lot of dollars. Or maybe having those bucks qualifies as a general gloat? Oh, well, ...

[David Weaver]

I haven't seen anyone else use the word gloat.

[Jim Matthews]

Take a class with Matt Bickford, first.

The handling of these tools is a skill that takes time to develop.
They'll just keep cutting, until you stop. FYI - an unfenced rabbet plane does the Lion's share of cutting moldings.

[David Weaver]

They'll just keep cutting, until you stop

Ditto that, a lot of work is one or two cuts from being ruined, at least from what I can tell so far. One or two cuts too deep and you're left with ugly gashes.

One thing I can tell so far is that I wish I had an 8 foot bench instead of a 6 foot bench, so I could cut longer uninterrupted mouldings for casework, and then miter them.

[Jim Neeley]

Take a class with Matt Bickford, first.

The handling of these tools is a skill that takes time to develop.
They'll just keep cutting, until you stop. FYI - an unfenced rabbet plane does the Lion's share of cutting moldings.

Jim,

Thank you for the advice. I have Matt on my list of a few people I want to take classes from but I must save up and try to line up a couple of classes when I travel since it'll cost $800 - $1000 in air fare (+ hotel + car + expenses) from Alaska to get to "lower 48" destinations. One disadvantage of living in the "Cruel Arctic North"! :)

In the interim I've been reading his "Big Pink".

Jim

[Jim Neeley]

I haven't seen too many H&R sets of that quality, matching, cheaply anyway. You can basically pay the piper or make them yourself.

I fell into the trap of buying a huge pile of H&Rs thinking I could match them up to each other. Total waste of time. I still have them, they were on the bottom of one of my racks, and a bottle of dykem burst above them on the racks and subsquently fell to the floor, splashing all over them. what a waste that was!

Now I'm slowly working my way through building a set, and if I didn't like building tools so much, an older set of english planes like these are probably what I would look for. It's nice to not pay dealer price if you can find them in person somewhere, but if you can't, and you aren't buying them from someone who uses the planes, then you never know what you're going to get buying on the cheap.

I feel very fortunate, David. The profiles are clean, the blades match the profiles very well, the soles are flat, the boxing is solidly intact and pitting is very minor and not on or near the edges.

To others considering such a purchase I'll share what worked for me. I contacted Patrick, told him of my affiliation with SMC and told him what planes I was looking for and generally what I was expecting from them and asked him to recommend what he had that would be best for me.

Jim in Alaska

[Adam Blanton]

Jim,

Awesome score and thanks for the advise when looking for a set!

I'm curious how well the irons match up to the wood profiles on an older set like yours, I could see that being more of an issue for a detailed profile, but for hollows and rounds I wasn't sure if it was as big of a deal.

[David Weaver]

It's not a real big deal as long as the width of the iron is similar to the width of the plane.

On a lot of the old english planes, the iron is proud of the sides of the plane, but you can refit it, because it's just a tiny bit.

If the iron in the plane is way off from the plane in size or closes the mouth, then it's probably not the original iron.

It's a bigger deal if the plane is junk, like if stock selection wasn't careful and the dried plane has turned banana laterally.

[Zahid Naqvi]

wow! that must have cost you some dough! But you are probably set for life when it comes to rabbets.

[Jack Curtis]

I haven't seen anyone else use the word gloat.

1984 speak is what we're into now, is it? This thread was initially titled with the "gloat" word, and was changed after I noted that I didn't see any gloat reasons.

[Jason Coen]

I noted that I didn't see any gloat reasons.

And again proving that the internet brings out the best in everyone.

[Jack Curtis]

And again proving that the internet brings out the best in everyone.

Yeah, not. :) But you know, I have to admit that the word "gloat" encompasses everything I was raised to avoid at all costs. It wasn't considered gentlemanly to gloat about anything, bad sportsmanship and all that. And I know that our language is so full of hyperbole these days, that many don't consider any of these words seriously; but I still do. Alas.

[Van Huskey]

Yeah, not. :) But you know, I have to admit that the word "gloat" encompasses everything I was raised to avoid at all costs. It wasn't considered gentlemanly to gloat about anything, bad sportsmanship and all that. And I know that our language is so full of hyperbole these days, that many don't consider any of these words seriously; but I still do. Alas.

The key is "gloat" is a colloquialism or term of art on SMC with absolutely no perjorative meaning attached. To treat it with the standard connotation is being less than fair to the user of the word. Generally, it is expected that the "gloat" be a deal, but that doesn't always mean a monetary steal, it can be the condition and/or rarity of the item. In general I figure if someone is really excited about an item there are more than free to "gloat". The better deal they get, the more enthusiastic I will be telling them how much "they suck". But, I mean that in the best possible way, when I do. :p

[Jack Curtis]

I understand, Van, that smc is as hyperbole laden as the rest of the society. We simply cannot get in the habit of abusing words of standard English when said words are so heavy with age old bad connotation. Now if you want to steal from technology and misapply, I understand, don't like it, but there you go.

I'm done now, will not post on this thread again, won't even read it.

[David Keller NC]

I feel very fortunate, David. The profiles are clean, the blades match the profiles very well, the soles are flat, the boxing is solidly intact and pitting is very minor and not on or near the edges.


Jim - a few tips from a veteran "I hate the router table" person.

You get more than personal satisfaction from cutting moldings with hand planes. I've never produced a molding on my router table that didn't require sanding. Very, very few of the moldings that I've produced with wooden planes required any sanding at all. And there is little danger of chip-out with handplanes as long as the stock is selected and oriented carefully.

When examining an H&R (or any molding plane, for that matter), whether the plane will cut nicely sensitively depends on whether the iron can be set so that it slightly projects over the entire profile of the sole. Even a tiny, tiny part that is below the sole when sighted down the plane's length will render a molding plane unusable. And you don't want any part of the iron projecting above the profile more than about 1/64". Any more and while the plane will cut, it will take tremendous effort to push.

Practice on a piece of easy-to-work wood with well-behaved, straight grain first. Eastern white pine is ideal; poplar is a good substitute, starting out with cherry or walnut (or especially maple) will be frustrating.

Start with as long a piece of wood as you possibly can. One thing about cutting profiles with molding planes that's quite different than router-produced moldings is that the depth of the molding will invariably differ over the length (with a router, the depth is accurate to a few thousandths over the entire length). On the ends, it takes great skill to achieve a consistent depth over the first and last few inches. So the strategy to overcome both issues is to plan on cutting off the first and last 3" or so of the finished molding, and to cut the finished molding on both 45 degrees of a corner (i.e., one generally can't used intersections like you could if you've a machine produced molding that's absolutely uniform).

Consider buying DMT's diamond cones (at least the 2 smaller sizes). These tools vastly reduce the amount of time it takes to profile a poorly-matching iron. You can also make use of a small rat-tail file if a lot of metal needs to be hogged off - most antique molding irons aren't so hard that a file won't cut.

[David Weaver]

I hope that at some point, we can get over semantics on this forum and not worry about how much someone else paid for something.

I sure hope that someone shares every nice somewhat unique purchase of tools, whether they bought for $1 or $10,000, because each time someone like Jim puts up a picture of planes like these, it gives me something more to train my eyes on or decide that I don't like and sharpen my thoughts about why that is.

It certainly gives a good opportunity for a beginner to be warned about buying a cheap set of H&Rs that haven't been used for 50 years, that don't match maker or even size, despite the markings. It is a warning I wish I would've read when I bought 40 planes a small pile of years ago before I had kids and before the wife applied as much scrutiny to what I swing through the door.

[Jim Neeley]

Jim,

Awesome score and thanks for the advise when looking for a set!

I'm curious how well the irons match up to the wood profiles on an older set like yours, I could see that being more of an issue for a detailed profile, but for hollows and rounds I wasn't sure if it was as big of a deal.

Adam,

There turned out to be one more advantage to asking Patrick for a recommendation: he went into his inventory looking specifically for what I wanted. I didn't have to wait until he posted it on the web and then hope I was the first to respond.

On iron-matchups, I tried to give them a quick "hairy eyeball" as I re-assembled them (the irons and wedges were removed for shipping) and they looked really well matched. I'll be checking each plane carefully as I go to put each of them into service, since I plan to hone them first anyway.

My inclination right now is to give them some time to acclimitize to our relatively dry air before getting too carried away. I don't know if or how important acclimitization is but I'm thinking that if it's a good practice to do on raw wood... maybe I should do it on these old planes. I'd welcome the opinion of others here.

Jim

[Jason Coen]

I hope that at some point, we can get over semantics on this forum and not worry about how much someone else paid for something.

I sure hope that someone shares every nice somewhat unique purchase of tools, whether they bought for $1 or $10,000, because each time someone like Jim puts up a picture of planes like these, it gives me something more to train my eyes on or decide that I don't like and sharpen my thoughts about why that is.

It certainly gives a good opportunity for a beginner to be warned about buying a cheap set of H&Rs that haven't been used for 50 years, that don't match maker or even size, despite the markings. It is a warning I wish I would've read when I bought 40 planes a small pile of years ago before I had kids and before the wife applied as much scrutiny to what I swing through the door.

Exactly, David.

[Paul McGaha]

I hope that at some point, we can get over semantics on this forum and not worry about how much someone else paid for something.

I sure hope that someone shares every nice somewhat unique purchase of tools, whether they bought for $1 or $10,000, because each time someone like Jim puts up a picture of planes like these, it gives me something more to train my eyes on or decide that I don't like and sharpen my thoughts about why that is.

It certainly gives a good opportunity for a beginner to be warned about buying a cheap set of H&Rs that haven't been used for 50 years, that don't match maker or even size, despite the markings. It is a warning I wish I would've read when I bought 40 planes a small pile of years ago before I had kids and before the wife applied as much scrutiny to what I swing through the door.

We're pretty close David, I think everyone that participated in this thread gained something positive from it. With 1 exception.

Congratulations on the purchase Jim.

PHM

[Jerome Hanby]

I think, other than inherit human nosiness, one reason many of us would like to know the cost it to help adjust what we are working towards. Currently, my plan is to try to work out how to build a set of hollows and rounds because, other than the Chinese versions from LV, there is no way I'll ever be able to purchase a set. I don't personally have the eye or the market places to try and put together a set of vintage planes. But, from his reputation, Patrick can certainly do that, so it would be useful to me to know what the ballpark of getting him to put a set together is. I don't need to know that it was $2413.67 but a ball bark of $500, $2000, $10000, or whatever would let me know if it were worth chasing...


I hope that at some point, we can get over semantics on this forum and not worry about how much someone else paid for something.

I sure hope that someone shares every nice somewhat unique purchase of tools, whether they bought for $1 or $10,000, because each time someone like Jim puts up a picture of planes like these, it gives me something more to train my eyes on or decide that I don't like and sharpen my thoughts about why that is.

It certainly gives a good opportunity for a beginner to be warned about buying a cheap set of H&Rs that haven't been used for 50 years, that don't match maker or even size, despite the markings. It is a warning I wish I would've read when I bought 40 planes a small pile of years ago before I had kids and before the wife applied as much scrutiny to what I swing through the door.

[Jim Neeley]

Jerome,

I'll share what little I think I know here.. Please keep in mind that I have only *one* data point here.. my purchase. I may have gotten a pretty good deal or I may have paid too much. Prior to this I have never seen a set of H+R's in person here in Alaska. In any event I knew I'd be paying about $100 in shipping to Alaska where many of you would be paying $20 or less.

In general I've read that 18th century planes are better made and more ergonomic than 19th century, that early 20th century. With the renaissance in hand tools, I've no doubt that, like the LV and L-N planes, the Bickford and Williams planes are better made than either. That said, it appears that 15%-25% of current new prices is the "going rate" for a matched set by a known planemaker, in good condition.

Jim

[Jerome Hanby]

Kind of figured something like that. Guess I'm going to keep thinking about making some.


Jerome,

I'll share what little I think I know here.. Please keep in mind that I have only *one* data point here.. my purchase. I may have gotten a pretty good deal or I may have paid too much. Prior to this I have never seen a set of H+R's in person here in Alaska. In any event I knew I'd be paying about $100 in shipping to Alaska where many of you would be paying $20 or less.

In general I've read that 18th century planes are better made and more ergonomic than 19th century, that early 20th century. With the renaissance in hand tools, I've no doubt that, like the LV and L-N planes, the Bickford and Williams planes are better made than either. That said, it appears that 15%-25% of current new prices is the "going rate" for a matched set by a known planemaker, in good condition.

Jim

[David Keller NC]

Roughly speaking, a matched 1/2 set of hollows and rounds, all from the same maker and owned by the same owner runs about $800 for British 19th century makers. 19th century American 1/2 sets go for about $1000-$1200. Both price guesstimates heavily depend on condition, and the prices I've quoted are generally for very lightly used sets that don't have any wedge finials sheared off or mismatched irons; some denting of the heels of the planes from hammer strikes is included in the price. An absolutely pristine set with no wear and the factory grind on the irons can run half again as much as the prices listed for British/American makes.

Complete 1/2 sets of 18th century British H&Rs are rare, and are correspondingly expensive. A 1/2 set of 18th century American H&R planes would be worth a small fortune - in the many thousands of dollars.

Complete whole sets of H&Rs (sizes 1,2,3,4 etc... up to 18) are also quite rare, but do exist. The last such set I saw sold for about 3k, though it was also by an early, famous 19th century maker, so that factored into the price as well.

[Jim Koepke]

1984 speak is what we're into now, is it? This thread was initially titled with the "gloat" word, and was changed after I noted that I didn't see any gloat reasons.

If they were mine I would be at least experiencing a wide grin. :D

jtk

[Zach Dillinger]

Complete 1/2 sets of 18th century British H&Rs are rare, and are correspondingly expensive. A 1/2 set of 18th century American H&R planes would be worth a small fortune - in the many thousands of dollars.

That's why I hold out hope, every tool-hunting day, that I'll find the couple of hollows and rounds that I need to fill out my half-set of Gabriel hollows and rounds. Very close!