Wipe-on Waterlox Satin Question

[Kent A Bathurst]

I put down multiple brushed-on coats of Behlens on a table top. All fine there.

Then, after waiting a few days, and scuff sanding, I wiped on 2 coats of Warterlox Satin [50/50 with MS - the Scott blue towel like the kid at Denny's method]. Waited a couple hours between the coats.

From a sharp angle, with light coming across the table, I can see swirl marks from the Wlox application.

I will confess this: I did not cover a section and not return: I did go back over some areas to even out the application.

I intend, after 3 - 4 weeks, to go back for final step - plan is rub out with MS and brown paper bags.

What will happen to the swirl marks?
Do I need a different scheme for rubbing out?
Or, was there some pilot error in application that caused the the swirls [such as - I should not have returned to a completed area because the MS had already started flashing off]?
Or, is this just the nature of the beast with satin, and I shouldn't try so hard to look for trouble?

Thnx

[Prashun Patel]

The swirl marks can be the result of the flatteners being unevenly applied (which is a risk with satin wipe on), the result of going back to even things out, or just not enough being applied (it can take a couple coats after a sanding to get an even consistent sheen).

Here's what I would do to be sure:

Mix up one more batch of wipe-on. This time add less thinner - like 25%. Stir the unthinned varnish thoroughly - for 30 seconds or more) before decanting it for thinning. Then mix the dilution thoroughly for 30 secs.

When you apply, rip a shop towel in half. Then fold that 1/2 into quarters to make a 'pad'. Dip into the varnish, and apply quickly on your table in circles. Then quickly come back and 'tip off with the same towel in the direction of the grain.

Work in 24" sections.

After you work the whole table this way, you tip off any missed areas just enough to blend them in; try not to add more varnish.

Then let it go.

I've learned that Waterlox doesn't love mineral spirits as much as I would have thought.

[Sam Murdoch]

I have completely given up on using the Waterlox Satin!!!!!!. It is a miserable job requiring perfect conditions to get that stuff to level out nicely - resulting in very mixed results with that product, that can otherwise ruin a perfect project.

Otherwise I am a HUGE WATERLOX ENDORSER - I just use the original sealer finish.
If you want a matte finish with Waterlox let it dry for 6 weeks and buff it out.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Sam. Noted....going forward.

Any advice on current issue?

[Brett Bobo]

I've learned that Waterlox doesn't love mineral spirits as much as I would have thought.

+1 on Prashun's suggestions for the application process but particularly on the thinner used with the product. I'd suggest using the corresponding Behlen's reducer instead of mineral spirits as I believe you'll notice a difference. I used the same product with the Behlen's reducer on a bed about a year ago and ended up with great results. I didn't follow the "swirling" process as much as I should have but did tip off and make a final pass with the grain.

[Sam Murdoch]

Sam. Noted....going forward.

Any advice on current issue?

My best advice - and believe me I have worked assiduously to make the satin flow to my satisfaction (again, with very mixed results and satisfaction) - is to sand it down if you can or care to. I would use Abranet mesh 220 or higher grit, on a good random orbital sander. Once you are down to a smooth even coat reapply the Waterlox with the maximum amount of Penetrol you can add according to Penetrol specs. I would apply liberally with a good varnish brush or foam brush in an evenly warm room 60-66° F - no drafts. Do not rework the finish with the brush. A flat table top is a good surface compared to doors or panels. You should be OK. Follow the grain, feather your brush strokes along the full length, move over and overlap with the same technique. Then walk away. After 24 hours it should be good to handle. After 3 weeks it should be good to put into lite service. You may have read that the finish will flatten more as it cures. I think that is true, but if after 3 days you see no improvement -what you have is what you have :(.

OR, let the next coat be the Waterlox original sealer - there are 2 kinds - the reformulated and the original. Don't apply one over the other. You've got to stick to the same formula as your first coats.

Or, use Prashun's technique. I hesitate with the wipe on because my very best experience with lots of Waterloxed surfaces have been with a brush. I do not dispute what Prashun writes - I just don't know the process well enough to agree.

[Alan Lightstone]

Getting to know Waterlox pretty well, of late. Lessons I've learned:

Don't thin the Waterlox too much with MS. It does poorly and isn't necessary for the Finish / Sealer.

Wait approximately 24 hours between coats. Yeah it takes forever, but the final product comes out far better with no surprises.

Waterlox High Gloss is also a real pain to work with. I'm sticking with the Original Sealer / Finish. Much, much easier to work with and level out.

I hate the low VOC formula, plus you can can't mix and match the new formulations. Thick with the original formula.

I've found a better applicator than blue Scott towels. It's the Home Depot Workforce Wiping Cloths. They come in a 55 pack, and are the perfect size, lint-free, and far, far better than the junky ones that Lowes sells. They also work far better than the white or blue Scott towels / rags in a box.

I find its far easier to get a level coat with wiping the Waterlox than even brushing it with high quality brushes. I love the Grammercy brushes, and that is a far faster approach, but it's still hard to avoid all brush marks. With the Wiping Cloths, its easy.

And finally, I've found that this forum is an amazing place to get good, solid, knowledgeable advice.

YMMV on all of the above, BTW. Void where prohibited by law.

[Prashun Patel]

Ah. Workforce wiping cloths...note to self.

[Sam Murdoch]

Summary: The Waterlox original sealer/finish (NOT VOC) is a truly wonderful, user friendly and extremely durable finish! :D

All the other Waterlox - not so much. :(

...and I know that Alan knows :)

[Jeff Monson]

Is spraying waterlox an option? or not? I have a maple countertop that I just stained. I was planning on wiping on 2 coats of sealer/finish and then spraying 1 or 2 coats of Waterlox satin. Wrong approach??

[Mike Konobeck]

Jeff - You can spray the original formula of waterlox. It is very messy and the results I got were marginal. I was spraying chairs because they had a million spindles and not very much fun to brush. Funny thing is I ended up brushing them out in the end just about as fast as spraying with much less waste and a faster build. I have the nice oil brushes from Gramercy and they are nice. Great finish using them. So nice I bought the ones for waterborne finishes as well. Worth the money if you take care of them. Waterlox is a pain to clean up afterwards and I thought I wrecked the brushes after extensively cleaning them. Haven't used them since the table so I hope all is well.

As for the issue at hand. I have learned that your best bet is just to wait and sand down the finish to get a nice smooth surface and reapply. Applying more coats over bad layers doesn't do you any good. Best to correct the issue ASAP. In this case I would take it all the way back and apply the waterlox original sander/sealer and buff to preferred surface versus using satin. You have to buff it out anyways so you don't have any extra work in accomplishing the end result.

[Prashun Patel]

Not to minimize anyone's experience here, but I would send a pm to Scott [edit] Holmes about that to get another datapoint. He speaks often of Waterlox.

[Alan Lightstone]

Not to minimize anyone's experience here, but I would send a pm to Scott Morrison about that to get another datapoint. He speaks often of Waterlox.
Always good advice.

Did a search on Scott Morrison and found your Maloof Chair build, Prashun. Nice chair.

[Jim Matthews]

I use the original Waterlox formulation and apply it with Mirlon abrasive pads.
I have experimented with other abrasive pads, and get good results.

Each successive layer is applied with a finer pad.

Figure 30 hours between coats - it can't be rushed.227328

[Prashun Patel]

Alan-
I apologize; I made a mistake. I meant Scott HOLMES. Scott Morrison is great too for other reasons, but Mr. Holmes has a lot of Waterlox (and other finishing) experience, and is generous with his advice.

[Henry Ambrose]

Is spraying waterlox an option? or not? I have a maple countertop that I just stained. I was planning on wiping on 2 coats of sealer/finish and then spraying 1 or 2 coats of Waterlox satin. Wrong approach??

Waterlox sprays well. When spraying the satin be sure you keep it mixed while in the gun. I'd save the satin for the very last coat. You might also find that once you have a good smooth build of the original, you might like that just like it is.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I've reached out to Obi-Wan Holmes. My guess is that he is out of town, or very busy.

Reading everything here, the impression I get for the direct answers on the satin is that I got what I'll get. My options are limited to (a) lite scuff sanding, and taking another run at it with less solvent, maybe a different solvent (b) maybe brush not wipe (c) if wipe, tip off (d) backing up a couple steps via sanding, and taking another swing. Not going to do that at present.

FWIW - I left out a small bit...I put down two coats of the satin by wipe and tip-off with the wipe-on towel. That left with-the-grain striations that were worse than the swirls. So after a few days, lite sanding and the wipe-on method that left the swirls.

Does anyone out there think I have a way via after-cure work on the satin to address the swirls? Can one buff out satin? Or, do the formulation and the fillers make that a fools errand?

It simply just may be time to throw away the shovel, and stop digging.

For those of you with the advice on non-satin Wlox - thanks for your insight. That's not an issue for me, though. I'm groovy with Behlen's. Brush on some coats, and then last one or two wipe on 50/50 with Behlen's reducer. Works perfectly. I had just assumed that the satin would work the same way. And - now I know. But that's OK - all the really valuable lessons have come by mistaking my way up the learning curve, so this is nothing more than another notch in the belt. Or - varnish brush, as it were.

[Henry Ambrose]

Prashun gives good advice in post #2 above.

I'd not use thinner when wiping on the original and if you want to use satin finish save it for the last coat, but it will almost certainly be a bit streaky. The flatteners guarantee it when the application and subsequent film thickness varies a lot. Wiping on is a great way to do a fill the wood surface finish and not so good for a build up finish, several coats over the wood surface.

Brushing it is going to be hard to make a perfect finish like a table top that you see up close and in all angles of light. It'd be fine on household trim or floors but not totally perfect and flawless for up close inspection.

Spraying properly can make a near perfect job with any version of Waterlox.

The other way for near perfection is to rub out the brushed job and for that just use the original version giving plenty of time to dry between coats and at the end before rub out.

[Sam Murdoch]

Jeff

As for the issue at hand. I have learned that your best bet is just to wait and sand down the finish to get a nice smooth surface and reapply. Applying more coats over bad layers doesn't do you any good. Best to correct the issue ASAP. In this case I would take it all the way back and apply the waterlox original sander/sealer and buff to preferred surface versus using satin. You have to buff it out anyways so you don't have any extra work in accomplishing the end result.

This is my experience as well. So that's 2 votes for sanding to a good surface. And again, Penetrol is a good reducer for Waterlox.

[Alan Lightstone]

Alan-
I apologize; I made a mistake. I meant Scott HOLMES. Scott Morrison is great too for other reasons, but Mr. Holmes has a lot of Waterlox (and other finishing) experience, and is generous with his advice.
I wondered. Thought we had another guru lurking.

Yeah whatever Scott Holmes says - take to the bank. Still liked your chair which I hadn't seen.

As to the original issue, I agree that it sounds like it's time to follow the first rule of hole digging.

As to whether or not to use Behlen's or Waterlox F/S to redo the finish - I think if the plan is to put on a number of coats, let it cure, then rub out to satin, I would use whichever you feel more comfortable using (which sounds like Behlen's in your case). It sounds like collectively we're just not big fans of the satin Waterlox.