Do you clock or time your screws?

[Van Huskey]

Well do you? I am talking about visible screws, if they aren't visible and you still clock them you may need a 5150 timeout..

[Jim Sebring]

I do, but most readers don't have a clue about what we're talking about. Few have had the opportunity to look at the workmanship on a British carriage or fine double gun.

[David Kumm]

Do you mean turning them so the lines are all the same? I thought everyone did that. Dave

[Craig McCormick]

Every electrical cover plate my guys install must have the screw slots vertical.

AZCRAIG

[Van Huskey]

Do you mean turning them so the lines are all the same? I thought everyone did that. Dave

Yep, I left it vague for fun and to create a google based "learning opportunity".

I thought everyone did too, but was at a friends house admiring his newly finished Kernov cabinet when I noticed his screws were not clocked. I ribbed him about it because he is a far better craftsman than myself and about as OCD as woodworkers come. IMO metal workers are much more OCD. He then went into a 45 minute diatribe, which I enjoyed, making the argument that this fetish (as he called it) could negatively impact function in wood. Basically, you run the risk of leaving the screw over or under tensioned in order to fed the fetish. He made sence but I will still clock my screws until I have a door fall off...

[David Kumm]

Sorry i gave it away. Too dumb for subtle. The old Boesendoerfer "sp" pianos were not only clock screwed but when taken apart the screws were all numbered and always replaced in the same hole. That is really German. Dave

[Van Huskey]

No worries, I knew it would happen in the first couple of posts, and I was betting electrical plate and gun smithing would come up quickly too.

Funny about the pianos, back when I was shooting competatively I bought a HIGHLY customized target pistol second hand and it always bothered me the screws weren't clocked. I couldn't undertand it based on the quality fo the work. After a couple hundred thousand rounds I broke it completely down and I forgot to lay out the screws correctly, as I reassembled it I noticed a pair of screws that were clocked that hadn't been before, a little trial and error and I figured out they HAD been clocked by the smith but someone had torn it down and just put the screws back in willy nilly mixing up the threads they had been clocked to.

We have a German neighbor who is one of two metal workers in my hood, Klaus can over engineer and over craft anything! When I need something fast that works I go to my other neighbor, when I need something that will last until well into the next century and look like a work of art, I head the other direction to Klaus.

[Alan Lightstone]

Here's a clock (watch) where they are not clocked. And for $18K too.
227209

[John Lanciani]

Always if they show, never if they don't.

[ian maybury]

Speaking as an engineer that's precisely the sort of stuff in woodworking that puts me off on occasion - along with the insistence in some quarters on doing things the supposedly 'traditional' way for its own sake. :) Worse still when it's deemed a mark of personal superiority!

ian

[Brian Tymchak]

Well, I already learned my one thing for the day. I've not heard the term "clocking" until this thread. But, any screw I did put in I naturally left in a vertical or horizontal orientation, whatever looked best, if it was easy to do. Reading the responses here though I got a sense that there was more to it and so, taking Van's advice, I googled it up and found an article (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/how-to-%E2%80%98time%E2%80%99-or-%E2%80%98clock-your-screw-heads)on PWWs site by Chris Schwarz. I would never have considered altering the seat of the screw heads to align the slots.

Thanks for the WWing lesson!

[Stan Krupowies]

I always do it with cover plates but I never knew what it was called. I just attributed it to being anal. Most screws I use in wood are not visible but I do make sure handle and hinge screws are clocked.

[John A langley]

I have clocked screws from time to time. But I'm curious, do you clock your phillips head screws or your square head screws? I'm afraid I have to agree Ian feelings on this one.

[Phil Thien]

Clocked screws are often a little too tight, or a little too loose.

[Carl Babel]

Always. And so far, I haven't bought a Festool. But the moment they come out with a drill driver that can guarantee that all screws drilled then driven with it end up clocked, I will be standing in line with a fist full of dollars.

[george wilson]

It is not a mark of superiority. It's just the proper,workman like way of doing it. To clock my metal screws,which I make,I leave the heads too tall,saw a slot in them,and tighten them down. Then,mark the sides of the screws to where I want the slots to be,saw the tops down and resaw the slots according to the marks,and finish off the new screw tops. This is still done on the finest gun locks,like Purdeys,etc..

Do not take a bad attitude about it. That is an emotional response. It really is the proper way to make a fine job. I never use Phillips head screws. I know,it's hard to get slots any more,so I've saved up a supply of them. If necessary,I'll make the wood screws too,if it's for a correct looking antique style object.

This plane I made was a Presidential gift,and had to be correct in all aspects. I don't post in this section much,but I was the toolmaker for Colonial Williamsburg.

[Jason Roehl]

Speaking as an engineer that's precisely the sort of stuff in woodworking that puts me off on occasion - along with the insistence in some quarters on doing things the supposedly 'traditional' way for its own sake. :) Worse still when it's deemed a mark of personal superiority!

ian

I totally agree. And, I have a related story about the first time I encountered the practice (though through this thread I just learned its name).

In the summer of '07, I was painting the interior of a new-construction house, large and higher-end for our area (~$700k). I had just finished painting the walls in the master bedroom and they were dry. One of the electrician's workers came in and installed some wall sconces where the bed was to be. After that, we called him, "Black Paw". So, I touched up the area. The homeowner shows up and decides she would prefer the sconces to be oriented the other way. Guess who changed them? Right--Black Paw. I touch up the walls AGAIN. Mind you, these sconces are not high off the ground, maybe 5' at most, so there's no reason to touch the wall when installing them. Needless to say the electrician is not my favorite person in the world at this point. Sometime between then and the final touch up phase of the job, which wasn't long, I noticed that the electrician (every contractor who knows him thinks he's more than a little odd) "clocked" his cover plate screws. So, one of my colleagues and I, giggling like little boys, started messing with them. We turned some of them randomly or put patterns in some. On a triple-gang switch plate, I arranged the top screws like this: / - \ with the bottom 3 screws mirroring the top 3. The next day, my partner in crime and I were talking when the electrician (Black Paw's boss) came in and started chatting with us for a little bit. As we're talking, his gaze was wandering...right up to the point where he noticed some of the "adjusted" screws. The look on his face was priceless. He fixated on the ones he noticed, grabbed a screwdriver and fixed them, then frantically looked around at others and fixed those. My colleague and I had to leave the room. We had exacted suitable revenge.

[Mark Ashmeade]

Poor man's way of clocking:

Drive screw home. If it will be too tight or too loose, back it out and use a different screw. Chances are the head will be at a different angle to the point than the first one. Only takes one or two goes to get it right.

My grandfather taught me that, a very long time ago. I get to Germany in the Army, and find that EVERY screw is either horizontal or vertical.

It's like parking neatly in a slot. Either you do it, or you don't. Your shoes are either polished, or scruffy. The lawn is edged, or it isn't.

I don't have time to do everything the right way, even if I know I'm doing it the wrong or lazy way. But clocking screws is neither difficult nor time consuming, so I do it.

[Edward A Miller]

George, consider this a handshake! No, we're not perfectly alike, but I do respect passion when it comes to a craft. I only 'clock' user-friendly projects in order to minimize skin cuts/scrapes when handling; for instance, a bunk bed ladder with the brass rd hd straight-slots (Shaker) facing 12:00-6:00 so a mis-step will slide harmlessly downward (yes, I file the slots burr-free if needed after using the correctly sized screwdriver!).

When I worked on aircraft engines, the fittings were safety-wired thru holes in the fastener with the tension on the wire always in the tightening position, sorta the same field of thought, just leaning more to the mechanical side. The wire was an artform in itself with no slack in the run and the trimmed end bent in a manner so as to not allow skin punctures during routine maintenance over the course of its lifetime.

I do have an issue with mixing different batches of fasteners, especially with hx hd bolts and those stamped markings on the head (as an example). My flat washers will ALWAYS be placed with the rounded edges 'up', UNLESS the washer will be sliding on a surface in which case the rounded side goes 'down' so it glides better and doesn't dig into the face of the item holding the 'slider'. Also, the different shades of sheetrock screws, (black-gray) bothers me; I hate it when the bulk hardware bins in hardware stores MIX the same items but from different suppliers!

Thanks guys for the education on 'clocking', and learning that I'm not so much of an oddity in this boat! We do this because of what we are; feels GOOD (inside)!

[Gary Kman]

Home-built aircraft are a perfect example of quality, or workmanship-gone-crazy, depending on your point of view. I've enjoyed looking at thousands of them at Oshkosh. Some, just arrived, required 25 years to build. I'm sure the screws (including Allen screws) were clocked. Others finished in one and flown all over creation for 24. Which builder did the RIGHT THING? Both as far as I'm concerned.

[David Kumm]

Whether you clock or not probably won't change the rotation of the planet but I think it's great we are talking about quality- real or percieved- rather than low price. Very little harm comes from raising standards, in woodworking or life. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Here's a clock (watch) where they are not clocked. And for $18K too.
227209


Interesting. Below is a picture of a Audemars Piguet Royal Oak (the line runs form about the price of the Hublot you mentioned to over $1 million, yes I did say that). The Royal Oak is "clocked" in a very cool way. The one I show is the Grand Complication near the upper end of the range at about 3/4 million. They use this same clocking method through out the line.

[Neil Brooks]

Clocked screws are often a little too tight, or a little too loose.

A common misconception, Phil.

I clock, AND torque, all screws.

That often requires that I trim the screw shaft, use washers, change the boards in question, file down screw heads, and cut new slots, swap out fasteners, or any number of insanely laborious processes, but ... as we've just confirmed ... the Woodworking Gods MUST be appeased.

:D

[Van Huskey]

Clocked screws are often a little too tight, or a little too loose.


That was my friends point, and he didn't see the point of all the fiddling to have them tight and clocked like one might on a gun.

[Neil Brooks]

It's like parking neatly in a slot. Either you do it, or you don't. Your shoes are either polished, or scruffy. The lawn is edged, or it isn't.


Hoh-Boy.

Amen. An old saying is, "As you do anything ... that's how you do everything."

By now, though, it's my considered opinion that those of us afflicted with this have shorter lifespans, and MAY reduce the lifespans of those around us, too ;)

[Van Huskey]

I have clocked screws from time to time. But I'm curious, do you clock your phillips head screws or your square head screws? I'm afraid I have to agree Ian feelings on this one.

Almost all hardware I have ever had show was a slot head, the couple of times I had a phillips head screw show I clocked them as an X versus having either slot point vertical. It just seemed more pleasing.

[Van Huskey]

I don't post in this section much,but I was the toolmaker for Colonial Williamsburg.

George, if ANYONE here isn't familiar with you posts and the work you have presented in them they need to click on your name and track down some of your posts!

Folks seriously, if you haven't seen some of the things George has made you are in for a treat his skills are amazingly wide with both wood and metal.



These are just a few to get you started:

17th. C. Italian style guitar, George Wilson (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=108545)
An English Guitar, George Wilson (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=108680)
Carved Lions head for a violin, George Wilson (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=108656)
Chet Atkins guitar, George Wilson (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=150382)
1950's style arch top guitar, George Wilson (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=150421)
Lion's head on a violin, George Wilson (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?178517-Another-lion-s-head-but-this-one-was-a-finished-violin-I-made)
Art deco table and jewelry box, George Wilson (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=108263)
Open views of the Art Deco box, George Wilson (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=108267)
Flint Lock Target Pistol, George Wilson (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=149640&highlight=flintlock+target+pistol)
Giant Screw, George Wilson (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?181154-How-I-made-a-giant-wooden-screw)
Giant nut for the screw above, George Wilson (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?181157-How-I-made-a-giant-nut-for-the-giant-screw)
Large Cider Press, George Wilson (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?108749-A-large-cider-press-and-cider-mill-I-made)

This list was copied from the Neander FAQ

[Jason Roehl]

Hoh-Boy.

Amen. An old saying is, "As you do anything ... that's how you do everything."

By now, though, it's my considered opinion that those of us afflicted with this have shorter lifespans, and MAY reduce the lifespans of those around us, too ;)

I consider it a symptom of OCD--tendencies of which run strongly in my family. I used to be very rigid in them as well. Now, not so much, as I started to see how much it affected others around me when I would be unyielding on things that just didn't matter. Yes, sometimes when working by myself I'll take something to the nth degree if it won't take too long and I want a little personal satisfaction, but I've found that as a friend of mine told me (he got it from a professor in seminary), "Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good," is a great approach. Particularly when it comes to products for sale. What you can produce extremely well and what you can do profitably well are often two very different things. That $1M watch is very much a niche market--very limited and not accessible to most watchmakers.

Now, if you're going to extremes on your own projects, for yourself, then it's a different story. But, if that attention to detail weighs you down so much that you can't ever get any project done, perhaps you need to re-evaluate your approach.

[Alan Lightstone]

I knew there was a reason to not use screws in my woodworking. (An engineers answer to the question)

I'm impressed guys. I thought I had OCD at work (where in my job it truly saves lives).

Learned something new and shaking my head at the same time. Nice. :)

Now I have one more thing to obsess over when building. Knew I shouldn't have read Chris Schwartz's article.

[Eric DeSilva]

Every electrical cover plate my guys install must have the screw slots vertical.

Hate to be the one to tell you, but that's wrong. Mine are all horizontal. ;)

[Neil Brooks]

Hate to be the one to tell you, but that's wrong. Mine are all horizontal. ;)

In Vegas, that's simply a push.

Yin/Yang ... and all that .... :)

[Bob Vavricka]

I clock all my screws, visible or not--It just that some are in or approaching a different time zone. :-)

[Van Huskey]

I clock all my screws, visible or not--It just that some are in or approaching a different time zone. :-)

Maybe the proper way is to time them to GMT based on the exact moment they are driven...

[David Helm]

I clock all my screws, visible or not--It just that some are in or approaching a different time zone. :-)

Alright! A little humor in an obsessively anal thread. In most of my woodworking no screws are visible.

[Biff Johnson]

How do you clock a sinker nail? Actually I just clock my workpiece. That's why everything hangs crooked on the wall!:)

[ian maybury]

Must say I'm quite Zen on the topic - caring but not caring. As in the potential problem is the development of a mental hang up on the issue, or as before use it for one upmanship. Meaning you need to be able to bung them in at any angle and not care if it makes sense. Meaning that you don't lose sight of all the other factors in play in the situation - like for example correct tightening etc. Which doesn't mean that you might not decide to clock the screws on a particular job where you intuit that it might look better, and not disturb anything else.

:) Clocking over here is resetting the mileage trip on a car to get a better price when you sell it by the way...

An Irish view on the topic inasmuch as it relates to screws is that you're doing very well if you get a guy that can be bothered to drill the pilot holes for screws straight and square - so many so called tradesmen will slap them in at whatever angle is convenient for access by the drill and screwdriver. That is a step too far, and often causes functional problems too...

ian

[george wilson]

If I never got a project finished due to unwarranted,un needed details,where'd all my pictures come from.:) And,I only ever photographed about 5% of my work,and never got good at photography,which I now regret.

[Larry Browning]

You boys are just silly! I suppose you would try to clock a torx head screw too?
I didn't even know about or realize that it was even done. Now, I will start doing it on my projects.
I hate you!!!!:D

[george wilson]

I ONLY EVER use slotted screws on important work,as stated. I'll use Torx,whatever,to put up shelving in my shop,etc., but not on an antique style,or otherwise artistic object. Modern screws just ruin their looks,though deck screws and their ilk are very excellent,strong fasteners when you know a shelf is going to be heavily loaded.

[glenn bradley]

Do you mean turning them so the lines are all the same? I thought everyone did that. Dave


Every electrical cover plate my guys install must have the screw slots vertical.

AZCRAIG


Hate to be the one to tell you, but that's wrong. Mine are all horizontal. ;)

Apparently Dave is right, we all do.

[glenn bradley]

Do you mean turning them so the lines are all the same? I thought everyone did that. Dave


Every electrical cover plate my guys install must have the screw slots vertical.

AZCRAIG

$18k for shoddy workmanship? Never.


Hate to be the one to tell you, but that's wrong. Mine are all horizontal. ;)


Here's a clock (watch) where they are not clocked. And for $18K too.
227209

[Van Huskey]

If I never got a project finished due to unwarranted,un needed details,where'd all my pictures come from.:) And,I only ever photographed about 5% of my work,and never got good at photography,which I now regret.

I know you have mentioned it off hand before but you REALLY need to do a book. You seem to remember so many details from all your work it would be a pleasure to read.

[Neil Brooks]

I know you have mentioned it off hand before but you REALLY need to do a book. You seem to remember so many details from all your work it would be a pleasure to read.

If this is like the pre-order process ... I'm in.

Thanks, George. Autographed copy for me ??

[Albert T. Tappman]

I thought Luvox was the drug of choice for OCD. Paxil will make you feel less anxious and depressed about obsessively clocking your screws, but won't stop you from doing it.

[Van Huskey]

I thought Luvox was the drug of choice for OCD. Paxil will make you feel less anxious and depressed about obsessively clocking your screws, but won't stop you from doing it.


Apparently all the major players do about the same when tested together. Luvox, Paxil, Prozac, Celexa, Anfranil, Zoloft, Lexapro et al. It seems to be a crap shoot in terms of what drug works for what patient. Further, if you buy into some of the most recent proclaimations the plecebo effect is just as good for the vast majority of patients. Who knows, I just picked one.

[Mark Ashmeade]

Aha, but you have to have a week's worth of pills in a SMTWTFS box, with the rest in a medicine cabinet, labels facing the front and neatly lined up with other inhabitants of the cupboard. Placebo or not.

[Van Huskey]

Aha, but you have to have a week's worth of pills in a SMTWTFS box, with the rest in a medicine cabinet, labels facing the front and neatly lined up with other inhabitants of the cupboard. Placebo or not.


Gotta make sure you get the generic sugar pills too, they are $4 a month the name brand sugar pills are about $150 a month!

[Larry Edgerton]

My dad, among other things was a gunsmith. One of my chores at times was fitting the screws so that when torqued properly they all lined up. Most of the top 20% or so guns in the pecking order will show this trait.

I still do it even when it does not show, but I did not know there was a name for it.

I'm sure I must need some electro shock theropy but do I have to?

Larry

[Joe Leigh]

This is fast becoming the "Seinfeld" of threads.

[Sean Richards]

Do you clock your screws? You could ask for instance:

do you debate about the merits of O1 and A1 steel?
do you own a titanium fret saw?
do you check the sharpness of your edge tools with a microscope?
did you spend a year building a bench?

Back to aligning the slots of screws - in cabinet making that is a relatively modern phenomenom - Victorian era or thereabouts. If you can make a beautiful piece of furniture with a well balanced and pleasing style I don't think having aligned/or not a few screw heads is really an issue.

[Ole Anderson]

Thanks a lot folks, now when I get home I am going to have to clock all of my switch plate screws, but do I go horizontal or vertical? Or should I replace them with Phillips so I can X all of them...oh no Mr. Bill...

In truth, none of my projects have any exposed screws and I hate slotted screws, I can't use my impact driver on them without ruining the project. And if I try to use a slotted screwdriver, I am still going to ruin the project when I rip the slot out. But then I have only 2 planes that get used infrequently. I remember when I used to hate Phillips screws for the same reason until I found the difference between a #1 and #2 Phillips driver some 30 years ago. Now it is square drive screws, I love the Kreg self tapping. I know I am showing my lack of true craftsmanship...wait, I refuse to agree that slotted screws give a piece snob appeal. Maybe in guns though. What kind of quality woodwork has exposed screws anyway?

[Van Huskey]

do you debate about the merits of O1 and A1 steel?
do you own a titanium fret saw?
do you check the sharpness of your edge tools with a microscope?


You tripped and fell into the wrong forum... :D

Here we debate the merits of a ResawKing vs Trimaster, Shelix vs straight knives and Domino vs PC 557.

Now I understand this may SEEM like a hand tool oriented thread since it would make sense that to clock a screw you would need to use a hand tool, but this thread is a fore shadowing my announcement of a impact driver that has a vertical clocking mode which torques to spec then automatically stops the next time the screw is at vertical, given it is gravity based you must have the furniture piece on a perfectly level surface, preferably a large granite surface plate... :p I make no guarantee that this driver will work in space, even in low earth orbit.

[Van Huskey]

What kind of quality woodwork has exposed screws anyway?

Hinges primarily.

[Pat Barry]

If the screws are supposed to be a design feature then by all means orient them so they look good and don't detract from the project appearance, otherwise don't sweat it. I have to agree with the comment about too tight or too loose though, and I'm not referring to a work of art like George Wilson is describing, just a typical project where you buy the hardware and screw it together. How do you live with the fact that the screws might be sunken ever so slightly deeper if you turned them tighter to line them up, or do you use a spot of glue and loosen them to get the appearance you are after.

[Peter Quinn]

When I hang doors I try to clock the screws, but not at the expense of a proper snugging without stripping. I'm certainly not backing out and replacing anything, or cutting my own heads in anything. Screws are like children to me. I encourage them to do the right thing in a gentle but persuasive manner, but I'm certainly not going to beat them into submission. I'll even clock philips screws if possible. In most other aspects of wood working if I can see screws its a major problem. I know there are lots of trades that value that sort of thing as a visible sign that proper attention to detail has been paid to every aspect of an objects creation, and I can respect that. But wood is a flexible and fickle medium. Trying to apply a machinists ethic to it would surely lead me to mental ruin.

[Van Huskey]

Trying to apply a machinists ethic to it would surely lead me to mental ruin.

It is true my friend who does not drinks less beer than I do...

[Alan Lightstone]

I'm still somewhat confused. Do you have to rotate all the screws for Daylight Savings Time to ensure proper craftsmanship?

Spring ahead, Fall back. Do you rotate them the other way in the Southern Hemisphere? Are 220V screws clocked twice as much as 110V ones?

Now I've got to change all the clocks, replace the smoke detector batteries, and clock all the screws. I'll never get any sleep.

[Eric McCune]

Question seems too personal for a woodworking forum.

[george wilson]

I don't bother to clock the screws on household door hinges! Only on important stuff.

[Jeff Miller]

Yo must be the guys that ground your dust collectors and detention your band saws:eek::D

JEFF:)


.

[Rich Engelhardt]

It is true my friend who does not drinks less beer than I do...
heh,,,,drink enough beer and you either won't care if the screws are clocked or not - or - you'll try to clock brads... ;).

[ian maybury]

Heh! indeed. A whole new field of endeavour. Does not clocking your brads imply moral turpitude?

ian

[Jason Roehl]

Well, if you're talking about pneumatic brad nailers, direction can affect whether or not the wood splits, I've found. If you shoot the brad so that the length of the chisel-shaped tip is parallel to the grain, it acts as a wedge and splits the wood. Turn it 90º, and the chisel tip will cut the grain it hits on its way in, and splitting is much less likely.

But this is definitely a functional concern, not one of form.

[Van Huskey]

But this is definitely a functional concern, not one of form.

Function or practicality have NO place in this thread... :D

PS actually an interesting point I had never considered...but again logic is not welcome here. :p

[David Epperson]

It is not a mark of superiority. It's just the proper,workman like way of doing it. To clock my metal screws,which I make,I leave the heads too tall,saw a slot in them,and tighten them down. Then,mark the sides of the screws to where I want the slots to be,saw the tops down and resaw the slots according to the marks,and finish off the new screw tops. This is still done on the finest gun locks,like Purdeys,etc..

Do not take a bad attitude about it. That is an emotional response. It really is the proper way to make a fine job. I never use Phillips head screws. I know,it's hard to get slots any more,so I've saved up a supply of them. If necessary,I'll make the wood screws too,if it's for a correct looking antique style object.

This plane I made was a Presidential gift,and had to be correct in all aspects. I don't post in this section much,but I was the toolmaker for Colonial Williamsburg.
This is the proper way of "clocking" screws. It prevents this from happening.

Clocked screws are often a little too tight, or a little too loose.

[Brian Kent]

I'm just happy if the screws are within 1/4" of the same depth.

[Bruce Page]

I’m surprised no one has asked which way is up on hex headed socket head cap screws. :confused:

[Van Huskey]

I’m surprised no one has asked which way is up on hex headed socket head cap screws. :confused:

That is easy, horizontal at the top and bottom, pointy to the left and right.

[Myk Rian]

I try to remember to clock the screws. The poll needs that option.

[Van Huskey]

I try to remember to clock the screws. The poll needs that option.

I think that would fall under option #2, the old timers issue. Maybe you forgot after you read it... :p

[Van Huskey]

I just had a thought, what about Posidrive???