Turning Wet Madrone Experiments, Part III.

[Russell Neyman]

Some of you have been following my series of experiments with turning fresh, still-wet madrone. So far, I turned it thin and simply let it warp like crazy, and also turned it thin and microwave dried it. I also followed the tradition rough-turn-and-boil, but that blank is still in the drying shed. This third variation employs a bit of all of the techniques.

The tree was taken down less than two weeks ago, and is so wet that my jacket is wet during the initial turning process. In this case, I rough-turned it as I would do if I were going to boil it in water, but slightly thinner. This is an 11-inch blank turned to about 5/8th thick. Note the tenon I cut when the blank was mounted on a faceplate, used when rough turning it to this shape; there's a second view of this upright in the attachments:
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I boiled this in water for eight hours, then microwave-dried it (two minutes at a time, allowing it to return to ambient temperature each time) until no water showed on the exterior. This took me about ten shots in the oven over the course of a day. There was minimal distortion, and only a small split at the lip. The next step was to mount it in large jaws (although I easily could have used the faceplate again) to create a trued tenon:
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Second day of the project. So now I have the bottom of a solid bowl turned up to the lower bead, and a nice tenon for the four-jaw chuck. Note that there's both a tenon and a foot. I've essentially cut and finish sanded the lower portion, anticpating some later sanding as the curing process raises grain. Next, its time to turn it around and mount it in the four-jaw chuck:
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I let it IN the large jaws and engaged the cone-shaped live center. I thought I took a photo of the live center engaged, but guess I didn't. This assure me that everything is true, which is important since I've already added the lower bead. With the blank firmly secured and trued, I remove the large jaws. Repeating my earlier comment, i could just have easily used the original faceplace. Next, it's time to complete the upper half of the outside:

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In this design, I will be adding a second bead right at the lip of the bowl. There's a slight piece of the pith along the lip, so I trimmed that off right after this photo was taken:
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Creating the space between the two beads was simply a matter of connecting the dots, trimming from the edge of one bead to the other, then sanding. I encountered a small amount of leftover moisture during this step, but not nearly what you'd expect from a blank that was sopping wet less than 24 hours earlier. Turning the interior was a snap, since wet madrone cuts like butter.

Here is the end result, also shown as an attachment. I have not decided what finish I will use, but more than likely a simple application of boiled linseed oil and wax. I'm tempted to color the banding with a very subtle red or blue dye. This will be somebody's salad or potpourri bowl, I'm sure.

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Yes, there's just a slight distortion along the rim -- just enough to make it interesting -- but the bowl has not gone oval. I attribute this to the boiling and microwave processes used together. Next time, I will probably place it in some soft jaws and just let it sit for a week, but this experiment was about controlling the warping process to get a nice effect. Normally, I'd expect it to look like a piece of cabbage, highly distorted (see the other experiments) but this is holding it's shape remarkably well for two days after being cut with a chainsaw. I might add that this particular piece is an extremely tight-grained, slow-growth tree, part of the "blue madrone" crop I posted earlier.

Not to get commercial, but the guy who has this batch has plenty more. I will answer all emails with his contact information eventually.

[Wally Dickerman]

Very interesting and imformative experimanting. Question...why did you boil the wood for 8 hours? Turners that I know who boil wood say for a 12 inch bowl they boil from 1 to 2 hours then let it stay in the water till it's cool to avoid cracking.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Thanks for sharing your process! So far the results look pretty good! Looking forward to seeing a photo after finished - especially if you decide to add some dye.

[Russell Neyman]

[Wally Dickerman; "Question...why did you boil the wood for 8 hours? Turners that I know who boil wood say for a 12 inch bowl they boil from 1 to 2 hours then let it stay in the water till it's cool to avoid cracking."]

Wally, I can't say I'm experienced enough with the boiling process to answer that. If anyone who knows more than I thinks that I'm putting the bowl at risk by this extended period, I'll change my process. I know that the hot water needs to penetrate all the way through the wood to have an effect, and since there was an extra thick part of it (for the base and tenon) I decided to let it go the whole day, stopping back by the stove every hour or so, checking to be sure it wasn't going dry. I included the cool down period in my 8-hour estimate, so in reality it was probably five hours of actual cooking. I left the pot at simmer rather that full boil, too. But no cracks at all, and only minor warp.

Mind you, I like the warp and only want to control it, not eliminate it altogether.

Another of these is a 14-inch blank turned to one inch of wall, boiled only four hours. That one will be allowed to sit and dry until the moisture is about 15%.

[Wally Dickerman]

[Wally Dickerman; "Question...why did you boil the wood for 8 hours? Turners that I know who boil wood say for a 12 inch bowl they boil from 1 to 2 hours then let it stay in the water till it's cool to avoid cracking."]

Wally, I can't say I'm experienced enough with the boiling process to answer that. If anyone who knows more than I thinks that I'm putting the bowl at risk by this extended period, I'll change my process. I know that the hot water needs to penetrate all the way through the wood to have an effect, and since there was an extra thick part of it (for the base and tenon) I decided to let it go the whole day, stopping back by the stove every hour or so, checking to be sure it wasn't going dry. I included the cool down period in my 8-hour estimate, so in reality it was probably five hours of actual cooking. I left the pot at simmer rather that full boil, too. But no cracks at all, and only minor warp.

Mind you, I like the warp and only want to control it, not eliminate it altogether.

Another of these is a 14-inch blank turned to one inch of wall, boiled only four hours. That one will be allowed to sit and dry until the moisture is about 15%.

I suggest that you check out Steve Russell's site for lots of info on boiling bowls. You might also call Dale Larson in Gresham Or. (AAW Pres.) Dale boils between 200 and 300 bowls each year. He did 70 while I was visiting him last summer. All madrone burl. He cored and rough turned and boiled all of them in 3 days.
He stacks them on high shelves for several months before finishing them.
Dale seldom does this in summer because his shop gets hot in hot weather and cracks may happen. All of these bowls came from one large burl. Beautiful stuff. I got some of the left-over wood.

[Russell Neyman]

Steve Russell seems to be the expert on boiling wood and I consulted his two years ago when I first used the process. Thanks for the reminder. Yes he says one hour for inch of thickness, but he does not explore what additional time in the pot will do.

[Ralph Lindberg]

I'll jump in with my experience, Dale is semi-local to Russell and I (he was the Demonstrator last month), and Dave Schweitzer is a member of our club, both of them tend to want to boil Madrone for longer then Steve Russell's standard. My feeling is usually about 2 hours of rolling boil. Now I know Dale likes to take the wood out of the soup as soon as it's cool enough to handle.

[Russell Neyman]

Forgive the phone camera quality, but here's the finished piece:
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I airbrushed the banding with alanine dye diluted with denatured alcohol, the finished it with two coats of shellac followed by about six thin coats of lacquer. I think the mixture of funky and formal works, but there's a bit of indecision here with me for straying away from completely natural wood color. It's always good to hear what the Creekers have to say. I promise to replace this photo with a better one later, but the camera is somewhere else and I was eager to get the thread updated.

[John Keeton]

Russell, I have followed this a bit, though admittedly I don't care for the distortion of madrone. The only madrone I have turned was some stabilized burl, and I enjoyed working with it - very nice stuff!

I kind of like the dye, but then, I do like to play with color on my work. The result you achieved is very interesting.

[Russell Neyman]

John, the reaction to distortion of wet-turned vessels is a fascinating subject. Some people just aren't "assymmetrical personalities" and feel that a warped piece is somehow deranged and irregular; others love the natural feel of a piece of wood that wants to go it's own way. I've had some people say, "Aww, too bad this bowl is ruined because it's warped," while others absolutely love it. Personally, I have mixed feelings on the subject -- as the tone of my thread indicates -- but feel that this piece is quite special. Following the route I have outlined is a gamble, to be sure, but when it turns out well, it's well worth the risk. That's why we do this, right?

I began this experiment seeking to find a way to use the dynamics of warped madrone to artistic advantage, trying several different ways of coaxing it to achieve a desired effect. Hopefully, sharing it here will trigger others to explore green-turning, steaming, boiling, and airbrushing it, and when they post the lessons they learned, I'll learn something, too. That's my hope, anyway.

It's hard to sense the three-dimensional values the wet-turning of madrone in a simple photograph. There is what you see here involving height and width, but also a wonderful texture factor to these bowls. The grains actually stand up well beyond what other woods can do, giving a sense of grain.

Thanks for your honest comment.

[Rick Markham]

Russell, I like the piece! The subtle color lends itself to the natural color of the Madrone. I'm in the "not sure how I feel about warping" camp. I really like the effect that it achieves, I really like my warped form though it was very difficult, as it's maker, to watch it do it's own thing. It's hard to watch something you've tried to achieve perfection in, distort and warp.

[Russell Neyman]

Well, stated, Rick. Having done the warpy thing about ten times now, I can say that there is a limited degree of predictability with this -- you can study the rings and tighter grains to get a rough idea about what will happen -- but in the end, you just have to sit back, watch, and hope. I've had them turn beautiful, and at other times, ugly. This latest bowl employed a combination of things, and the soft jaws really helped control some of the extreme oblong.

By the way, I went up to that guy's place and cut a dozen pieces of the madrone and have them stashed away for future turnings. Gonna turn a few wet, but mostly boil these. I spent all day Saturday waxing them.

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The two on both ends of the front row are figured but the entire tree seems to have features (the upper right example shows the tree's bark). The center front one is a plum crotch. All of this cost me $120 and a six pack of beer.