carbide cutters VS traditional chisels

[Brent Dorner]

As someone who is newer to turning I need to ask, why would someone use traditional HSS chisels over carbide cutters like Easy Wood Tools?

With Easy Wood Tools, or products like them, I can buy a square, round and detail cutter all for about $350. The cutters will likelty last me 4-6 months before needing to be sharpened or replaced and I believe they cut faster that HSS. So I won't spend my precious time in the shop sharpening my chisels.

On the other hand I could easily spend $350+ on a high quality set of HSS chisels, plus an additional $200 on sharpen jig and $250 on a nice grinder and grinder wheels. Then be sharpening my tools every 10-15 minutes.

So my question is, outside of tradition, why would I want to invest traditional chisels? Do they allow for a larger variety of cuts? Allow for more detail? Leave a better finished cut? Or?

[Scott Lux]

I don't have any carbide cutters yet, so I can't give you a direct comparison. But I do know from reading here that there are things carbide cutters can't do. Probably the best way to look at it is that there are different tools for different jobs.

While you could probably play golf with one or two clubs, having others available allows you to maximize you efforts. Or if you prefer fishing: There is no lure that will always catch fish. Having more to choose from allows you more opportunity to succeed.

Of course, the real trick is knowing which tool to use under which conditions.

[Nathan Hawkes]

Brent, let me try and be PC about my answer. Turners seem to love or hate them, and I don't want to sound like I'm starting a feud. I think carbide cutters have an appeal because they don't have as steep a learning curve. In addition, with regular, actual chisels, you have to learn to sharpen as well. Some great results can be had with carbide tools. That said, when you learn to use a bowl gouge, or detail gouge, or whatever, the variety of cuts and versatility is unmatched. Over time, in skilled hands, you cannot possibly touch the speed and quality of cut that you get with a freshly sharpened bowl gouge. Yes, I have used carbide tools, and tried to like them. There are some very well made tools out there. I just find for me, bowl gouges are a much better fit. The carbide tools have their place; for many turners who don't turn lots of bowls, it is much easier to use a carbide roughing tool for shaping and waste removal when shaping a bowl. But, as you become familiar with bowl gouges, the quality of the edge of a carbide tool begins to lose its appeal--for me, even a new, fresh carbide tool, except the Hunter dished cutters, or the "finishing" tools I've seen advertised, but haven't used personally, they are never feels as sharp as a bowl gouge off the grinder. I just work much much faster with gouges. Also, for as many bowls as I turn, I just can't see buying new cutters as frequently as I would need them. Buying quality tools offers a much more enjoyable, and longer lasting turning experience for me.

[Brent Dorner]

Nathan, as a newer turner I am hearing conflicting reports so it leads to some confusion. The salesman at Woodcraft made it sound like a dull carbide blade is still better than a sharp HSS chisel. Now when he told me that it did make me question the comment, but then I hear you say a new carbide blade is still not as good as a good HSS chisel... so the confusion sets in :)

[Marty Eargle]

If you're going to drop a nice chunk of change on tools, I would suggest getting some quality chisels and gouges for yourself. If you have the desire to give carbide cutters a try, you can make your own for fairly cheap. They won't end up being the quality of EWT cutters, but they'll be good enough to give you an idea of whether or not you want to invest more into them.

I would start by looking up capneddie on Youtube. He'll show you how to make a good carbide cutter for real cheap, or he'll sell you one he has made for like $40. I would consider it a worthy investment when you're thinking about buying an entire line of tools.

[Michael Mason]

I purchased the large easy finisher about a year ago. At first, I couldn't live without it. Now that I have more practice using a bowl gouge, I rarely use the carbide cutter anymore. It has areas where it is useful, but when you learn more about what you are doing, you can do whatever you need with traditional gouges. Also, from my experience, if you are going to get 4 - 6 months on a single carbide insert, you must not be planning on doing much turning.

[Brent Dorner]

I fully understand and respect the tradition aspect of wood turning or woodworking in general. At the same time I believe if someone in the 1700's was given a 12 inch compound sliding miter saw with a carbide blade they would have tossed their hand saw in the garbage. I'm not wanting people to pick sides, just share the advantages and disadvantages of each tool. As a newbie that has not held a high quality HSS chisel or carbide tool at the lathe I wonder what the best option may be. As I said, I don't have a lot of time to spend in the shop and wonder if spending 20-30% of my tuning time on sharpening is productive. Not to mention the added expense of needing the tools to sharpen the tools.

If it strictly comes down to tradition, I would ask do you turn on a foot pedal lathe and sharpen by hand on a foot pedal grinding stone? Or did you step up to a variable speed grinder and a sharpening jig? If it has nothing to do with tradition is it because HSS chisels cut faster, cut better and give you more options for a larger range of cuts?

[Bernie Weishapl]

Brent I have both HSS and some of the EWT's. My suggestion would be to get you some bowl gouges, spindle gouges, skews, etc and learn the basics of turning. The EWT's and carbide tools do have their place and are excellent for some jobs. I have found that the cutters on the EWT's last for a long time. In my opinion the are a lot sharper than HSS and the edge lasts several times longer than HSS. The woodcraft sales person is trying to sell. IMHO I would learn the basic woodturning tools and then add the Hunter, EWT's, etc later.

[Prashun Patel]

I'm prejudiced bkz I learned on HSS bowl gouges (I'm all of an beginning intermediate now).

I haven't found the curve so very steep; practice enough and the technique and feel becomes natural. I think it's a versatile skill worth learning. For my $$, I'd rather put the $350 into a couple high quality steel gouges, a slowspeed grinder, and a Varigrind.

FWIW, with the grinder and Varigrind/Wolverine, sharpening is pretty simple and straightforward; not like sharpening flat blades at all.

[Brent Dorner]

Also, from my experience, if you are going to get 4 - 6 months on a single carbide insert, you must not be planning on doing much turning.

I can only go based on what I hear, some people have said they can cut 10-15 bowls without turning the bit, and the bit square or round has 4 sides, so that would be 40-60 bowls on one bit. If that is true, and I'm not sure it is, then 1 bit probably would last me 4 months. My goal is not to turn a lot of bowls, some bowls but also stoppers, grinders/mills, hollow forms/vases, candlesticks and so on.

[Allan Ferguson]

You should not be spending time every 10-15 minutes sharpening good turning tools. Quality steel will do a lot of work between going to the grinder. Tradition IMHO has little to to with selection of tools. My first lathe was a spring pole foot powered lathe that I had made. It is now disassembled in a corner of my shop. Now use a Nova lathe. I can do things with this late that could not be done on the spring pole lathe.

[J.D.Redwine]

What tools are you using now?

[Ralph Lindberg]

I'm going to step in the middle of the road... I have an Easy Rougher and find it takes a "chunk" to round and rough shaped quicker and easier then even my 3/4 inch PM bowl gouge.
That being said, the amount of tear-out, even taking light cuts with it or the Easy Finisher is too great. I can get a better finish cut, quicker and easier with a well honed bowl gouge.

[Russell Neyman]

I'm going to chime in here, essentially agreeing with Ralph and Allen. I use cutting heads made from 1/4 x 1/4 stock, mounted on an extremely long handle to hog out my interiors, and it works quite well. My theory is that a small cutting surface reduces the chances of a catch significantly, and when you add all that leverage you can make quick work of the interiors. After I have the bowl roughed out, I switch to other tools, depending on the type of wood. (Let's face it, some species can be temperamental.)

Allen's point about higher quality steel is an excellent point. Brands like D-Way are made of stuff that holds an edge for two or three times what the cheapie gouges have. If I were to start all over again, I'd skip the "starter sets" and buy fewer top-tier ones.

[Jamie Donaldson]

As someone who is newer to turning I need to ask, why would someone use traditional HSS chisels over carbide cutters like Easy Wood Tools?

With Easy Wood Tools, or products like them, I can buy a square, round and detail cutter all for about $350. The cutters will likelty last me 4-6 months before needing to be sharpened or replaced and I believe they cut faster that HSS. So I won't spend my precious time in the shop sharpening my chisels.

On the other hand I could easily spend $350+ on a high quality set of HSS chisels, plus an additional $200 on sharpen jig and $250 on a nice grinder and grinder wheels. Then be sharpening my tools every 10-15 minutes.

So my question is, outside of tradition, why would I want to invest traditional chisels? Do they allow for a larger variety of cuts? Allow for more detail? Leave a better finished cut? Or?

The fundamental difference between most carbide tools like EWT's and traditional HSS tools like gouges is the manner in which they are used. EWT's are scrapers, and traditional gouges are slicers, and the quality and variety of cuts achieved are quite different. Slicing tools efficiently shear away a considerable amount of wood, and leave a more refined surface due to the bevel rubbing/slicing manner in which they cut. Scrapers scrape the wood away in a brute force manner, leaving a surface that requires significantly more sanding to achieve a surface ready to finish. I basically consider such carbide scrapers to be aimed at beginner turners who haven't learned how to sharpen and use gouges, but their extreme cost eliminates any recommendation from me. They are easy to learn to use, and do give beginning turners quick gratification as they ease into turning. The cupped carbide discs of the Hunter type tools are a different breed of cat, more cutters than scrapers, and are a hybrid tool design that fits between slicers and scrapers, and I love my Hunter #5!

[Reed Gray]

The debate continues. I was turning well before the carbide tipped tools came out, and learned without them. There are two types. One is flat stock with different profiles, rounded or more square. These are scrapers, nothing more, nothing less. The others are discs that are more concave. These are used more as a shear cutting tool, at a 45 degree angle. I think they excel in getting a good finish on the insides of boxes and hollow forms. There are different grades of carbide, and the best and sharpest ones are the micro or nano grained carbides, which are a step or three above saw teeth grade. The saw teeth can be sharpened, the nano grained ones would not be worth sharpening because of the cost.

I do not own any of the scraper type, and will not buy any, and if some one gave me one, I would give it away. This would not be because they don't work, it is because I just can't see buying a cutting tool that I can not sharpen. They can not make any cut that I can't do with my other tools. Perhaps the reason a lot of more beginning turners like them is because, as scrapers, they have a smaller cutting tip than most of the standard scrapers, so there is less steel engaged with the wood at one time, and so don't tend to catch or get over loaded.

You will eventually need a grinder and a sharpening set up if you keep turning.

The edge durability of all steels depends on a lot of things, but for any finish cut, I want a tool fresh from the grinder. The 'lasts 5 times longer' steels will keep a good roughing edge much longer than standard HSS, but the finish cut edge stays only a little longer.

robo hippy

[Brent Dorner]

I appreciate all the responses, they are all very helpful. I guess I did get some nice feedback on both sides of the fence. I was wondering why some of the round bit are used flat and some on an angle but I think I have my answer based on the concave shape of the round tool tip.

[David DeCristoforo]

There is a factor that needs to be considered anytime you are comparing carbide cutting tools with "conventional" steel tools. Carbide is what is called a "sintered" material. Essentially, it's a bunch of particles bonded together. It has a completely different structure than steel. Carbide will hold as good an edge as it can take for much longer than steel. But here's the rub. Carbide cannot take anywhere's near as good an edge as steel. In other words, the carbide tool will stay "sharp" longer than steel but steel can be made much sharper. A freshly sharpened steel scraper will yield a much cleaner "cut" than a carbide scraper. And whatever they say about them, carbide tools like the "Easy Wood" tools are scrapers. As many have already pointed out, you will not be able to "cut" with them like you will with a sharp gouge. The big advantage of the carbide tools is that they do not carry the learning curve associated with gouges and skews.


I bought two Easy Wood tools early in my foray into turning. I got both the rougher and the finisher. At first, I used these tools extensively. But as my skill increased, I began to rely more and more on my gouges and skews. I use the carbide tools less and less although I still find a use for them from time to time. One thing I found is that the cutters themselves, mounted on one of my Monster tool holders, work great on the insides of hollow turnings.

[Tim Rinehart]

One thing I found is that the cutters themselves, mounted on one of my Monster tool holders, work great on the insides of hollow turnings.

For me, this is the game changer for carbide tooling. Yes, I can get an even sharper edge on HSS tools, but when you consider how quickly a HSS hollowing bit dulls while doing any sort of hollowing, carbide has an edge (no pun intended). I've been finishing up a red mallee form that I hollowed exclusively with the cupped (aka Hunter style) cutters I've adapted to my rig, and used a EWT mini-round cutter on another homemade tool for the initial area near the top of the form. I started trying to use HSS bits...but too much sharpening involved to be efficient. Some softer woods wouldn't be an issue.

Carbide will never likely replace my use of HSS/Cryo/M42...etc on outsides of forms, or on any form where a gouge can be used. Ok...one exception...I have used the square planer style cutters (like Easy Rougher) on a piece of 1/2" bar stock that is a phenomenal tool for roughing ugly exteriors. Actually find this to be more efficient at times than a 5/8" bowl gouge for roughing.

OK..I keep thinking of exceptions...when I do inlay work with malachite/turquoise/etc...I use my cupped style carbide cutter to remove the bulk of material, as opposed to grinding it down close to adjacent wood, and have never had an issue with it yanking the material out. Once I have inlay blended to adjacent, then I typically follow with a bowl gouge in a shear scrape that cleans everything up.

That's all for now...if I don't hit submit...I'm likely to think of another exception!:rolleyes:

[Alan Zenreich]

You also need to consider the materials you will be cutting.

If you're a pen turner and are working with acrylics or Inlace Acrylester, or incredibly brittle materials like some of the darker TruStone blanks or M3 metal composites, then the EWT and similar carbide scrapers are ideal.

For example, I know turners who complained that with the purple TruStone material (a very brittle stone/resin composite) that I just used, they were resharpening their skew every 30 seconds. Carbide tools are perfect for this.

The other thing to consider is that although using the EWT and other flat carbide cutters as scrapers (flat on the toolrest, parallel to the floor) is advised for beginners, it's by no means the only tool presentation.

If you've ever watched Steve Sherman use a flat round carbide bit on a Nano tool, you'll see how you can ride the bevel with these cutters and do work that you might ordinarily do with a skew or a spindle gouge

For example, in this video, Steve starts with some HSS tools but starting at around the 1:50 mark in this video he switches to a round carbide tool, and really makes the most out of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_PHDBLi-tA

I am fortunate enough to be a tool junkie and enjoy working with very good carbide tools (EWT and Nano) as well as some great conventional tools (Thompson and D-WAY). Then again, I'm also into sharpening, having several options available to me (grinding 8" wheels, 2x72" belt grinder and JoolTool).

It's hard to recommend one approach over another. They all work, some work better than others, depending on the turner and what's being turned.

[Steve Sheasly]

I am new to turning but have been a wood worker for 40 + years. All my tools that used to have blades in them now have carbide inserts. They last so much longer and do a better job of finishing. I have never owned a lathe until last month. I did a lot of research on line but until you have a tool in your hand and are turning a project the jury will still be out. I bought a full set of Simple Carbide toolsj from Harrison Specilties the owner was very helpful to me, very high quality tools . They have a set of 7. I also bought two handles. I think I will buy more handles.
At first these tools seemed to be too aggressive and hard to use. After a few days of playing with them I absolutely love them. The last time I turned any wood at all was in 8th grade a long long time ago, so obviously my experience with conventional tools is not only limited but it is hard to remember back that far. I have turned a few plates, bowls and a nice vase. If you use the on line videos and pay particular attention to the surface speed of the piece you are turning you will do very well with carbide tools. The finish is fine and is easily sanded to a very smooth surface. Look at it this way, sharpening tools is an art in itself. Unless you want to spend hours and hours sharpening tools and buy a Tormek or Grizzly wet grinder or other type of grinder I would suggest the carbide inserts. As far as sharpness goes the carbide inserts are always consistant. They are sharp and certainly sharp enough to cut seasoned walnut. I know because I just turned a bowl out of a 40 year old piece that we found in a saddle shop in town. This is new technology to seasoned turners out there but so were computers, cell phones and electric planers. I still have a set of Stanley Sweetheart planes but do not use them much. I think we might be back to the traditionalist vs new. Having said that I will probably buy a set of traditional tools and see what the difference is for me. I do have a few of traditiional tools from the 1940s and I do have a wet grinding stong and can and do sharpen chisles, planes, gouges now. And they are no match for the carbide in terms of quickness and ease of use. I can not talk about finish --- yet. But a little sanding and the bowls I make are very nice.

[Terry Vaughan]

I'd make several points.

Firstly, though carbide may stay sharp for longer than HSS, it blunts. Then the cost of replacement will probably mean the carbide stays blunt for longer too. Gritty wood will make tiny chips in the edge of the carbide that you can feel with your thumb nail. It's easy to chip the edge by knocking it against the tool rest or another tool. Blunt and chipped edges tear the grain and cannot give a really good surface on the work. Both flat carbide tips and HSS scrapers can be sharpened, but the HSS is much quicker and easier. HSS needs sharpening more often, but that means it can always be sharp. The square carbide tips are said to have four cutting edges, but if you cut sideways and use the side edges, in practice you only have two.

Secondly, the carbide tools can be used straight out of the box by a beginner. They aren't skill-free, but are quick to learn. If you see the lathe as a means to an end and just want to make something without worrying about the process, carbide may be the way to go. But if you want to learn the craft of turning thoroughly, you have to invest in gouges and sharpening kit.

I've used carbide when roughing out bowls, but found no net advantage over HSS scrapers.

It seems to me the question is really whether to use scrapers or gouges and skews. If you are limited to one, your turning may be limited. If you choose scrapers, HSS is better, in my view, but lots of people use carbide very effectively, including for bevel rubbing cuts. Good carbide is essential. I have an old fluted gouge made of carbide and find it almost unusable because it won't take a good edge.

[John Beaver]

I'll second the comments that carbide tools are essentially scrapers and do not cut the wood as well as a good HSS gouge. I've seen and done comparisons and the finish off a gouge is better.

I also want to add that I find it much easier to follow a curve with a bevel rubbing then a free floating carbide cutter. With the bevel you can track the tool much better. Especially with a round carbide cutter, you have nothing for the small point to ride on and you can end up with more dips.

I've also found that a carbide tool grabs much more aggressively then a gouge. When that carbide tool bites (catches) it puts a lot of force into the end of the handle. A gouge tends to roll out of the way more gently.

[Larry Frank]

I am a newbie also and asked a similar question with similar responses.

I made a couple of carbide tools and have compared them to normal HSS tools. I found a use for both. I suggest that you might do the same. Making carbide tools is not very expensive.

[John Grace]

I have and use both styles of tools. Why? Because they're exactly that...a tool with each serving it's own purpose for me and how I turn. Use what works for you...

[Shawn Pachlhofer]

look at age of the original post - and the latest set of responses.

carbide tools (scraper type) have a use.

carbide tools (Hunter type) have a use.

HSS tools have a use.

figure out what works best for you and go for it. No one type of tool works best for one person.

Unless you're Alan Lacer and the tool is a skew. ;) LOL

[Justin Stephen]

When the Easy Wood Tools craze stormed the market years ago, I went out and bought one of the "easy roughers" thinking that it would simplify/speed up the roughing process. Back then I was mostly turning bowls from green wood. What I found was that it really didn't speed things up at all and had the added disadvantage of sending most of the wet wood shavings right into my chest and neck. I could and still can hog off wood every bit as fast, if not faster, with a sharp gouge, and also with far less stuff hitting me in the mid-section. The EWT rougher went into the drawer to gather dust and the "easy finisher" I also bought did see occasional use as the shape of the bit was situationally useful as a round scraper.

Flash forward to about a year ago and I found a reason to take the carbide rougher out of the drawer and use it regularly. I mostly turn platters now from kiln-dried lumber and I find that the carbide tools are excellent for truing up the blanks on harder woods and even hogging some of the wood out on the edges on what will eventually be the rim. I never perform anything remotely resembling a finishing cut with carbide, however. The "easy finisher" now gathers dust as much nicer cuts can be achieved with an appropriately shaped negative rake scraper or a sheer scraper.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

I've been tempted to switch over to steel tools for over a year now....huge difference!


went all in with Carter and Son steel turning tools :)



460341

[Richard Coers]

I've been tempted to switch over to steel tools for over a year now....huge difference!


went all in with Carter and Son steel turning tools :)



460341










You are responding to a post that started 9 years ago.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

You are responding to a post that started 9 years ago.

I know; I've been busy

[Richard Dooling]

I know; I've been busy

A good laugh! Thanks.

[PAUL A DALEN]

The salesman at Woodcraft made it sound like a dull carbide blade is still better than a sharp HSS chisel.

First up, I only own carbide cutter chisels.

Second, that's the dumbest thing I've heard reported by salespeople at Woodcraft, and I've heard a lot of dumb things from there. Sharp is always sharper than dull. Carbide's difference is how long it takes to get dull. You may have to sharpen HSS chisels every 30 minutes, and rotate a carbide cutter every 14 days. But a dull carbide cutter will never be sharper than a sharp HSS chisel.

[Edward Weber]

I can only guess but I think what was trying to be said is that carbide will not take as sharp of an edge as HSS, this is true. HSS can be sharpened to a very fine point, sharper than carbide but it does not last long as the fine edge wears away quickly. Carbide has extreme abrasion resistance and will maintain it's edge for a considerably long time compared to HSS.
You're really looking at two different qualities of the materials mentioned, ability to obtain an edge and the ability to keep an edge. Both qualities have there place.

[Reed Gray]

Ed, not sure that this is true. With the new 'micro grained' and/or 'nano grained' carbides that are out, they can get a very sharp edge, but don't really know how to compare them. Personally I don't use the carbide ones....

robo hippy

[Edward Weber]

Reed, for the most part, it's still true.
There are some newer Hyper-carbides that use a different binder than most current carbides that use cobalt. I don't think they'll trickle down to turning tools anytime soon.
The Micro and Nano carbides may have smaller carbide particles in their composition and can be sharper to a degree compared to run of the mill cheap carbide. But most carbides still suffers from being brittle and can only have a cutting angle so acute without weakening the material.
For turning tools, this is why carbide is relegated to scrapers (replaceable tip type tools) You'll never get a carbide skew or gouge with an acute angle.
Sharpe, last longer, it's basically what you're comfortable with, they are pretty even these days.
I don't use carbide tools either

[Stan Calow]

I started with HSS. To me, sharpening is an additional skill set, which takes time away from actual turning. When I picked up a set of carbide tools, I much preferred them as a way to save time. Usually, I start shaping with the carbide tools because they're fast, and switch to traditional tools to do the last 10-20% of the job. So both are good to have and know how to use, and its not either/or.

[Reed Gray]

Well, I don't have any of the Mike Hunter tools, but his cup shaped cutters are designed to be used in bevel rubbing cuts at a shear/slice angle. I did get the Eliminator set, which came before Mike, and it does work well. There are a few who like Mike's tools for finish cuts on bowls as well as boxes. I do prefer NRSs for box finish cuts.

robo hippy

[Edward Weber]

There's a place for all of them IMO,
I don't feel compelled to go out and try every new type of cutter so I can't give a first hand comparison. I don't use EWT style tools because I'm not a fan of scrapers in general, I don't see the benefit for my type of turning. I only buy tools when I have a need for them. I'll stick with my traditional tools for now.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

I would never have used carbide had I known what a sharp gouge could do.