Big ol' Planer

[Casey Carr]

All right, I think I've finally figured out what type of planer I want, now I need advice on whether or not I'm going to be happy with it. I'd like to get an old Powermatic 180. I intend to use it as a finish planer and I've read some posts that say the older planers leave divot marks that have to be sanded or hand planed out. I'd really prefer NOT to have to do that, so if that's typical of that type of planer, what would be recommended? Or what other problems do I need to look for on this planer?

The 3 phase doesn't bother me, I'll just have to get a bigger converter. They don't come around all that often, but I'm really not in any hurry to buy, so I can afford to just wait. I've heard good things about the Oliver 299, but I think that one may be a little out of my reach, can't justify what people are wanting for those things to have this as a hobby machine.

Thanks for any advice!

[David Kumm]

Casey, the 24" planers are a whole different animal at twice the weight with a separate feed motor. The 18-20" planers were considered light duty but by today's standards are massive. The PM 180 is near the top of the heap with the Oliver 399 and Newman 620. Pm is by far the most affordable and available. Straight knife head and should have a grinder unless you are putting a byrd on it. If you learn how to grind in place you will have a great finish. PM made a quiet head but you really don't want those unless you get the planer cheap because of it and can replace it. In their day the PM were considered a lumber planer and the Oliver a finish planer but if adjusted correctly they will perform the same. 5 hp is OK and 7.5 is even better considering you are driving the feed rollers off the main motor. PM also made the 160, and 221 which were 16 and 20" respectively. The 299 is probably the most sought after planer and has about the same footprint as the 180 but way heavier. All of them will give a great finish if set up and should not be compared to the 20" crop of current offerings unless going to SCMI. They are a good choice as well. Dave

[Van Huskey]

The PM 180 and the rest of their line were designed as rough planers, but I will defer to Dave in that if he says they can do finish work I believe him. The divots are usually the result of knives that are not set properly, but to do this takes a bit of practice and the resulting skill. As Dave says the key to getting a great finish from a planer without self setting knives is the grinder/jointer. From my point of view the key is the jointing. Jointing is when you lower the jointer stone down on to the spinning knives and move it across as the knive spin, just kissing them. This makes sure each knife edge is exactly the same height across the full width of the planer (or jointer). The key is whether you are willing to take on the care and feeding of a non-self set planer, if you are you can get excellent results, if not IMO you are better off going with a carbide insert head or self set knives.

[Peter Quinn]

I just finished a cabinet job this fall at a shop with a PM 180', and I have no love loss for that boat anchor, IMMHO. Yes, it's large. And heavy too. The knives were freshly sharpened. The machine reasonably well adjusted. But it's a big noisy cranky rough piece of work. I can get a better surface quality with a rigid lunch box, and a similar feed rate with my delta Delta 380 at home. It's a very cool looking hunk of iron in a nostalgic sort of way, but I'm not a nostalgic sort of guy. Surface quality was poor, chatter marks were large, passing stock less than 1/2" thickness was difficult. I was told the owner had processed all the oak timbers for his post and beam house cut from the property with that planer, and all the floooring, and for that it seems well suited. I had to make some cribbing for clamping from some 12/4 poplar and found that machine could easily take nearly 1/2" per pass, and actually seemed to leave a better finish on the thick rough stuff.

Honestly, if you want to go large and undustrial, a used Italian planer like a Casadie or SCMI is a fine choice for all sorts of work. Digital power height adjustment, segmented indeed rollers and chip breakers, precise hold downs, possibly even quick change knives are all things to look for. I've never used one but maybe the Oliver is worth the asking price? I wouldn't take a 180 at is point if some one gave it to me.

[Larry Edgerton]

I had a 180. It was a good planer, but as Peter has said not a great planer. I messed with the gearing and slowed down the feed rate, sharpened my knives on a Makita flat wheel, and it did a lot of work. It was cool looking and would look awesome next to my 47 Dodge, but thats just it, its a 47 Dodge.

Mine had a catastrophic failure, the cutter shaft broke in use, and I was in the middle of a big job so I bought a SCM with a Tersa head new. That hurt [$] but I have not regretted the decision. Its miles ahead of the 180 in every way. It planes better at 72 fpm that the 180 was capable of slowed down. And at 16fpm on the final pass, almost no sanding. There are going to be machine marks no matter what you use, some are just smaller. Knife changes[4] take 2 minutes. Its QUIET! You can talk to someone in a normal voice while its running right next to it.

That being said I kind of miss the old girl, and have been thinking of getting another one and throwing in a byrd for rough stock. They are a good machine, but unless you find a real low mile example that is all there, the end cost may be more than a used SCM/Casadia for a lot less machine. A plus is if you buy right, you will never lose money.

Larry

[David Kumm]

The mechanics of all the old planers are pretty much the same so finish quality has to do with setup and there are lots of things to set up on old planers. Although I like direct drive the belt drive will turn the head faster and help the finish quality. As much as I like old planers I have to agree the 20" SCMI would be preferable especially with a tersa head. My 299 has an ITCH head and while it gives a great finish I have to be careful as grinding the inserts is no fun. The difference is you can probably find a good 180 for about 2000-2500 top end and the SCMI will be double that. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

A lot of good advice already, I'm also in the camp that would put the Powermatic planers in a slightly lower class than say the SCM planers. My buddy had a Powermatic 18" and it was not nearly as well built as my planer. I have an older 20" SCM with the grinder, Ive said it before and I'll say it again..... I wouldn't trade it for anything. You can keep your carbide insert heads, I'll take my 4 knife with the grinder every time. It leave s a finish as good as you could want out of a planer.

I really don't have any first hand experience with the heavier American planers....but the guys over at OWWM can help you with that if you decide to go that route;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Van Huskey]

This all begs a question, what makes a rough planer and what makes a finish planer? Obviously a planer with a slower feed rate and/or faster cutterhead and/or more knives has the ability to produce a finer finish. A planer that has self set knives would be easier to set to produce a fine finish. If you are skip planing at a lumber yard the criteria is a lot different than final dimensioning. In the end what criteria are used when proclaiming the PM180 and its ilk as a rough planer?

[David Kumm]

I think the terminology applies most to the 24" comparables. The Crescent, PM type planers were the Ford and Chevy of the industrial world, Oliver more like Buick and Cadillac and Buss and Whitney the true cream of the cream. Oliver marketed more to schools and Tannewitz and others to industry. I believe the Oliver with it's smaller footprint, variable speed rate and tendency to be found today with light usage due to spending its life in a school environment helped create the "Finsh" planer reference. Search back for threads from Dev Emch who was a real knowledge base for this stuff. Dave

[Van Huskey]

Search back for threads from Dev Emch who was a real knowledge base for this stuff. Dave

Thanks. I do wish Dev was still around! I read most of his posts a year or so ago, I need to go back and read them again.

[Casey Carr]

Wow, lots to think about. I was definitely planning on putting in a byrd head, so would that make it any better? I'm thinking I can find a 180 for under $1000 if I keep looking, plus the $1600 for the byrd head, and I'd be in it for around $2500 or so. The new 20" from Jet with the byrd head is about $3300, but if the newer one gives a better surface finish, I wouldn't be opposed to going new. I know the build quality isn't as good as the older ones, but in my garage, I doubt I'd ever wear a new one out.

I did a quick search on the Casadie/SCM/SCMI, looks like they go for about the same as the Oliver 299's at around $5k plus. I could get one of these, I just have a hard time in my head justifying that kind of money for the limited amount of work I'm going to be able to do with it. I'd hate to look at it every time I pull into my garage and see it sitting there, thinking I spent that much money on something I'm only going to be able to use every once in a while. Have a 2 year old now, another one coming in a couple of months, a house I'm trying to get ready to rent plus a full time job so it's not like I have a whole lot of time to do what I want to do anymore, but at least I have the justification of needing things for upgrading the rental house. And I do want more capacity than what the lunchbox planers offer...

[David Kumm]

Casey, if you get a 180 for a good price I would put Esta blades on it if you don't have a grinder and live with it a couple of years. They will give a great finish and you can save the 1200 for the future. Once you put on a byrd head you will be forced to keep the planer forever to get your money back. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

If you buy a Powermatic you might as well get one with a grinder and not use up a lot of time and money on changing cutter heads. Look around for the older SCM's and you may be surprised at what you can pick one up for.....I paid $1k for mine in plug and play condition. Personally for the type of work your describing I think these machines are overkill....but that doesn't mean you can't get one anyway:D

Being on the left coast you should find an ample supply of used equipment. If you take your time and are patient, I'm sure you'll find the right machine for you.

good luck,
JeffD

[Chris Rosenberger]

This is an interesting thread. I have been using Powermatic 180 planer for 20 years & I did realize it was a pile of junk.

My opinion of the 180 is that it is built like a tank & can do rough & finish planing. I have never found any problems with the finished product as long as it is adjusted properly.
I have a Terminus head in mine. It is a straight knife index head similar to the Tersa head. The cost at the cost of the head was $595. I can change knives in about 5 minutes after getting the dust hood removed. I get zero tearout form this head. I like the terminus head better than the Byrd head I have on my jointer.

http://www.terminus-stl.com/products/products.htm

[Gary Herrmann]

I know a guy that has a PM180. He's got it dialed in very well. It does just fine as a finish planer. He's thinking about updating the cutter head to either Byrd or terminus, but hasn't decided yet. Buy a 180 and tune it up. Then see if you need another cutterhead is my advice.

[Casey Carr]

Ha, everything I see is on the east coast! Plenty in Florida, Pennsylvania, Illinoise, Jersey, etc. Rarely do I see anything in Cali or AZ. And never anything in single phase!

[Greg Portland]

This all begs a question, what makes a rough planer and what makes a finish planer? Obviously a planer with a slower feed rate and/or faster cutterhead and/or more knives has the ability to produce a finer finish. A planer that has self set knives would be easier to set to produce a fine finish. If you are skip planing at a lumber yard the criteria is a lot different than final dimensioning. In the end what criteria are used when proclaiming the PM180 and its ilk as a rough planer?
My personal criteria is the number of passes required through the drum or wide belt sander (at progressive grits) before the surface is finish ready. If I can skip 80 and/or 120 grit then that is a big plus.

[Myk Rian]

I just finished a cabinet job this fall at a shop with a PM 180', and I have no love loss for that boat anchor, IMMHO. Yes, it's large. And heavy too. The knives were freshly sharpened. The machine reasonably well adjusted. But it's a big noisy cranky rough piece of work. I can get a better surface quality with a rigid lunch box, and a similar feed rate with my delta Delta 380 at home. It's a very cool looking hunk of iron in a nostalgic sort of way, but I'm not a nostalgic sort of guy. Surface quality was poor, chatter marks were large, passing stock less than 1/2" thickness was difficult.
It's obvious to me that planer isn't setup properly.
I have access to a PM180 at our middle school. Our WW club services it. It leaves a nice finish, requiring a minimum of sanding.

[Chris Rosenberger]

My personal criteria is the number of passes required through the drum or wide belt sander (at progressive grits) before the surface is finish ready. If I can skip 80 and/or 120 grit then that is a big plus.

That makes my 180 a finish planer, I only run 150 grit on my wide belt.

[Jeff Duncan]

Ha, everything I see is on the east coast! Plenty in Florida, Pennsylvania, Illinoise, Jersey, etc. Rarely do I see anything in Cali or AZ. And never anything in single phase!

Do you check your local auctions??? For instance I see stuff on flea bay on your coast all the time.....usually shapers as that's what I'm into these days. Finding big machinery in single phase is going to be your single biggest hurdle....there's just not a lot of it b/c factories almost always had 3 phase power. It made sense for them to buy 3 phase whenever possible as it's a more reliable motor. If your stuck on single phase you may want to start looking for smaller planers as the larger ones may be quite elusive.

good luck,
JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

It's obvious to me that planer isn't setup properly.
I have access to a PM180 at our middle school. Our WW club services it. It leaves a nice finish, requiring a minimum of sanding.

Did you ever process 40K BF of lumber per week for years through the planer at the middle school? You can't set up worn out junk properly no matter how good you are. This thing was set up decent by a professional mechanics, but it had a hard life, and its well past prime. My standards are high for a finish planer, and the best 180 I've used was nearly ok, not great. If the OP wants a great piece of old iron, IMO and IME, thats not necessarily it. Crap shoot at best. Now if the OP had said "I want to grind 10K BF of white oak into flooring"....well sure, that thing could run all month and never get tired. But most of those 180's are for sale that cheap for a reason. A good reason. Another issue to watch out for? Segmented chip breaker and feed roller were an option on the 180. The one I used last had solid feed roller and chip breaker, and if you fed more than one piece of material at a time, the second one either stalled or came back at you. Real nice feature there. For cabinet work where you start with rough stock, flatten, then plane, thats a real deal breaker. If you don't have the segmented feed and chip breaker, you really don't have a great machine.

This thing I was working with had some condition issues, but I've worked with several of them at one point or another, and my little DC380 gives a better surface than any I've tried. One that I worked with started to taper boards almost randomly, chatter got pronounced, needed a tear down and rebuild, all new bearings, springs, etc. So they did it. Then they did it again 5 years latter. Something out of balance was eating the thing. They could have sent it to a machine shop for a serious balancing and rebuild, but at that point a better machine starts to look attractive. If a machine gets bought new, spends its life in a school where it gets used a few hours each week for light work, then its probably working about as well as a 180 ever did. But many of them got a lot more use than that. All I can really say is for industrial use, its not BOB, and for the average hobby shop it takes up a lot of space without offering much advantage to the user.

[Myk Rian]

....through the planer at the middle school? You can't set up worn out junk properly no matter how good you are. This thing was set up decent by a professional mechanics, but it had a hard life, and its well past prime...
Saying that in the first place might have helped.

We just used our 180 at the school tonight. I planed some 5/8 cherry, then it was used to do some 1/4" oak. All of it came out great.

The PM180 is a great planer. Leaves a nice finish when setup properly, and not worn out.
It's up to the buyer to determine if a machine is beyond help. Just because it's for sale, doesn't mean it is.

I'm perfectly happy with my DW735.

[Van Huskey]

Did you ever process 40K BF of lumber per week for years

One that I worked with started to taper boards almost randomly, chatter got pronounced, needed a tear down and rebuild, all new bearings, springs, etc. So they did it. Then they did it again 5 years latter.


I am not trying to be argumentative just trying get the facts, if they are the same planer or one being worked at hard, that is a full rebuild at a milliion board feet and I have no frame of reference, a Buss may have just been getting broken, but that seems like a pretty reasonable amount of work to expect from a "light duty" planer.

[Larry Edgerton]

Peter doesn't really say what he is comparing to, but as a reference, my 180 was in very good shape. It still did not compare in any way to SCM, but I paid over 10K for the SCM and had about $2500 in my 180.

Not sure what a new 180 cost, but I would bet it was comparable to the SCM with adjusted dollars. Time marches on......

That being said, the used 180 in decent shape is going to kick the butt of any new planer in the same price catagory, and it is all done depreciating.

Larry