Price check on aisle three - what are used woodworking machines worth where you are?

[Jack Vines]

FWIW, I guess, the good news is, around here, there's never been a better time to buy quality used US woodworking machinery.

I've been an occasional woodbutcher for fifty years. Over that time, I'd find a machine better than what I had, maybe needing some work and would gradually trade up. Usually, I could sell my good running user for what the bigger/sturdier fixer-upper would cost and break even on the deal.

When ready to sell, I'd run a classified in the local newspaper on Saturday morning and there would often be three guys on my front porch fighting over who got to buy the Craftsman or Delta table saw, bandsaw, jointer, radial arm saw or drill press.

These days, used table saws sell for less than they did twenty years ago. I've got a couple of Craftsman 10" TS I'd have fixed up and sold, but there's no demand and it's no longer worth the investment of time or parts. Radial arm saws have no market at all any more. I literally can't give one away.

It really came home to me last week when I listed a 1948 Delta Unisaw for sale on craigslist and haven't gotten a single call. Again, years back, a classic Unisaw would have sold the first day.

It seems to me several factors have been at work in the land:

1. Easy sex and video games. Many young guys in their twenties are still living in their parent's basement and playing video games. With easy Saturday night hookups, they don't get married, don't buy houses and thus don't have to do remodeling, don't develop any interest in woodworking.

2. Imports - the lower priced chicom junk has driven the US manufacturers out of business or offshore themselves. With so many cheap tools out there, very few remember US quality any more.

3. SawStop has convinced many users they will lose all their fingers if they even think about operating standard table saws.

4. Credit cards - first thought is go to a BORG and buy a new import on a credit card rather than save up the cash to buy anything used.

What are you seeing as to used woodworking machinery prices in your locales?

jack vines

[Van Huskey]

You missed the #1 reason why the serious iron is so cheap. It is the commercial and industrial owners dumping them. Either they are going out of business OR they are updating their machines (automated machines such as CNC etc) and getting rid of the old manual machines. This is the golden age of high quality used iron, but you can't be afraid of size, weight or phase.

Your #1 may have some merit but that has more to do with lake of jobs and the fact money is harder to borrow than it was just a few years ago.

The reality is the import machines allow many people to actually have a fully stocked shop that could not have in the "good old days". A PM141 was just under 2,000 when it went the way of the dinosaur. Honestly, there are a lot of Asian built machines that will last a hobby woodworkers lifetime, you just have to be careful what you buy.

The few people SS has convinced of this were probably already woodworkers, they don't waste a lot of advertising on the general public.

I see the prices of junk still being high, I see the prices for light duty stuff (like Unisaws) being a little low but resonable for both buyer and seller, the real quality medium and heavy duty machines are going for a song.

[Bob Lloyd]

What about the general state of the economy? People just do not have the resources to buy and some people are selling to pay their bills. Simple matter of supply and demand.

[Jim Matthews]

There's a fifth reason - lots of us just starting out don't want to deal with the noise, dust and size requirements.
For the few projects I'm likely to make in my remaining years, I'll let the lumberyard do the rough milling and finish the rest by hand.

As to number 1 - that sounds a lot like heaven, and what I hope retirement is like.
It is just like that, innit?

I need something to look forward to, once I get my kids out of my basement...

[Jim Foster]

I see classic unisaw's for "antique" type prices all the time in my area, a little too steep, but maybe after a haggle or back and forth on offers things would work out. In the Boston area, I see some deals on used equipment, but I think the advertised prices on CL usually are out of whack to the point where it's worth it to take the hit on a new warrantied piece of equipment

[Greg Portland]

1. Easy sex and video games. Many young guys in their twenties are still living in their parent's basement and playing video games. With easy Saturday night hookups, they don't get married, don't buy houses and thus don't have to do remodeling, don't develop any interest in woodworking.

2. Imports - the lower priced chicom junk has driven the US manufacturers out of business or offshore themselves. With so many cheap tools out there, very few remember US quality any more.

3. SawStop has convinced many users they will lose all their fingers if they even think about operating standard table saws.

4. Credit cards - first thought is go to a BORG and buy a new import on a credit card rather than save up the cash to buy anything used.
I know a lot of younger guys who are interested in WWing. Most of these folks live downtown where space is at a premium. They are buying tools that get moved through the wood (versus wood through the tool). For example, Festool, Lie-Nielsen, used hand tools, etc. The guys I know who have the room are buying Euro machinery or Sawstops. The oft-quoted reason is better safety and better design. Take a look @ this board... how many people were talking about Euro combo machines 5 years ago?

[Steve Meliza]

#1 I always hate it when video games get blamed, in your youth I'm sure TV was to blame for all evils. I'm finally a home owner in my 30's and that has more to do with 6 years in the military and 7 years in college than it does with the countless hours I have wasted on video games while living in a 100 sqft bedroom I rented.
#2 Best bang for my buck wins, regardless of where it comes from. I hate junk regardless of where it comes from.
#3 Sawstop has probably saved more hot dogs than fingers.
#4 I doubt what you are selling competes with the garbage that my BORGs sell, but it is a valid point.

I like to browse CL for entertainment in seeing people's junk offered for ridiculously high prices (near or at the cost of a new tool). The few items that are priced reasonably disappear quickly, two weeks ago my contacting the seller 2.5 hours after he posted a drill press was already too late. I guess 6:30AM was too late on Sunday morning to be looking for new tool postings.

I like to buy USA when I can, but sometimes that older iron is a lot of work to fix up, adapt to dust collection, or locate accessories that fit them. I do have a USA made Delta contractor's TS that I got a pretty good deal on, but finding a USA made dust collector in my size and price range was out of the question so I got a used JDS 1.5HP unit. I'm trying to find a drill press, jointer, and planer, but spending my free time on CL and fighting others over the quality tools kinda takes the enjoyment out of the tool research and purchase.

Right now I see a 2002 Unisaw with mobile base for $1200 that is 80 miles from me, a Unisaw about 30 miles away with outfeed table for $2000, and one from the 80's maybe 10 miles away with a few blades and 2HP Grizzly dust collector for $900 OBO. That's a pretty wide price range and since they were all posted on Friday and Saturday I think it's safe to say that plenty of people have seen the ads and decided not to buy.

[jonathan eagle]

I don't see much for sale on CL around my area.
But besides that, a lot of the old stuff is really out of date and lacks safety features. I know all you guys think it's fine to miss a finger or two, but I don't do this for a living. I really don't understand the attraction to old, unsafe tools. Not to mention the outdated technology.

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

R


As to number 1 - that sounds a lot like heaven, and what I hope retirement is like.
It is just like that, innit?

I need something to look forward to, once I get my kids out of my basement...

To quote one of my favorite comedians, Larry the Cable Guy, "dats funny right there; I don't care who you are!"

[Van Huskey]

I really don't understand the attraction to old, unsafe tools. Not to mention the outdated technology.


Most of them are as safe as their modern counter-parts. The biggest diffrence is if tablesaws and I won't use a cabinet was without a riving knife so that is one area where I wouldn't look at old iron. My older bandsaws are as safe as my Minimax, if the old drill press has a belt guard there is little to no difference, a PM 180 planer and its peers are just as safe as any new planer, you can argue the bridge gaurd vs pork chop but jointers aren't much different. There are some antique machines and certainly table saws that are more dangerous than the current crop of machines but in general they aren't that much different.

Unless you are talking about somthing like a Martin what modern jointer will do a better job than say a Yates-American, Porter, Oliver or Northfield jointer? Even buying a primo example spending 2-3K on one of these jointers will get you a machine that will function as well or better than anything you can buy new for 3 times the price.

The one place that SOME modern machines beat out the older ones is dust control but it usually isn't a big deal to fix.

[David Kumm]

I think some of it is lack of education as to the choices. I went many years not having a clue about old machines. It wasn't until I researched bandsaws and talked to a million people about steel saws that the light bulb went on after several said " Well none of them are like the old cast iron ones" and I started reading about old stuff. The education takes time and the ability to get burned is high until you get deep enough to understand at least a little about three phase, motor starters, direct drive motors, 208 vs 220, on and on. I'm tied to the desk enough that the reading is fun but for many it is irrelevant what cuts the wood as long as it is cut. Old machinery is a hobby onto itself. Many of the OWWM guys know little about woodworking. Of course many woodworkers, myself included know little about woodworking. Dave

[Carl Beckett]

I used to do acquisitions for a large public industrial company

You can buy a machine shop for $1. (with this you get labor responsibilities, and an unprofitable operating statement)

Factory utilization rates were sub40% on a good day.

The economy really devastated a lot of businesses. Ugly, and by no means has it recovered.

[Van Huskey]

Old machinery is a hobby onto itself. Dave

Dave, I think you would agree that although can be a hobby unto itself, it doesn't HAVE to be in order to buy and use old iron. Just like old cars don't have to be a hobby to buy and drive an older car/truck. If you don't want it to be a hobby or a "job" you won't be able to buy old iron for scrap prices, you will more likely need to buy them from people who have rehabbed them, have excellent original pieces or buy from a dealer. Even at dealer prices serious old iron is usually not much if any more then new Asian imports, but one thing to consider is the old iron has done most if all of its depreciation and in a year the Asian stuff will be worth half what you paid.

Though, it tends to be addictive, if you are fascinated by machines it can suck you in, but I never worry about such things, woodworking is a hobby for me, if it leads me to something I enjoy more so be it.

[Jack Vines]

Thanks for all the replies and especially to Jim Matthews for seeing humor where I hadn't.
As to number 1 - that sounds a lot like heaven, and what I hope retirement is like. It is just like that, innit? I need something to look forward to, once I get my kids out of my basement... (No, Jim, retirement isn't like that. If you aren't getting easy sex now, you won't get any when you're retired. You'll just have more time to notice the lack thereof. Video games -well, your retirement, your time, your decision.)


The guys I know who have the room are buying Euro machinery or Sawstops. The oft-quoted reason is better safety and better design.Take a look @ this board... how many people were talking about Euro combo machines 5 years ago?FWIW, I bought a Robland fifteen years ago. It does have a smaller footprint than five separate machines, but I can't see it being a bit safer than the fifty-year-old Delta Unisaw, jointer, planer shaper it replaced.

jack vines

[Shawn Pixley]

There are reasons you may not have considered. In my area of the country there aren't a lot of old iron around. Partly due the relative newness of population here and the fact that there aren't forests and sawmills nearby. I could look through craigslist in a four country radius for weeks without seeing anything better than a 1990's craftsman tablesaw. There is also a lack of space around here. My shop doubles a a garage that gets the cars parked in it each night. I move all of my equipment each time I need to work. I need to find equipment that moves readily.

For my own situation, i work roughly 60 hours per week. I would much rather do wordworking than repair / resucitate old misused equipment. I grew up poor having to repair cars and appliances constantly. While I can fix most things, I'd prefer to only have to deal with my maintenance. I don't find the repair a pleasurable event. I learned to woodwork on an old 40's unisaw in a different area of the country. I have a sawstop today. Like seatbelts in your car, it is protection from a worst scenario event. In my opinion, the sawstop is a superior tool to the 40's unisaw (not that a unisaw is adequate).

But I may be just a non-conformist. I joint wood in the neander fashion. I hate routers and have zero use for a shaper. To each their own.

[David Kumm]

Like Shawn I operate out of a garage but with a pallet jack I can move 2500lb machinery with effort and anything lighter with very little. I don't buy the stuff that needs restoring and have to say I spend more time fixing the newer stuff than the old. Old machines have simple electronics and keep their settings much better than lighter weight new. They generally have better bearings, heavy castings, bigger cutterheads, and are pretty tough to break. I'm speaking of the industrial stuff not the hobby stuff. Many new machines are built to such a price point that moving them is asking for trouble. The Knapp is an exception as it is the most heavily built steel chassis I've seen. Even stronger than SCMI class series and Felder. Old industrial saws- not the unisaw- get a bad safety rap. Oliver and Tannewitz both had riving knives and it could be argued their short center mounted fences were safer than the long ones we use today. Everyone has to decide what works for them but to assume the old stuff is maintenance prone is incorrect.

[Rich Riddle]

I am in the midst of looking for a cabinet saw and am finding that while some folks might sell at reasonable prices the majority attempt to sell used equipment for nearly the same price as it cost them new. Currently a Unisaw sits near Kansas City for $1700 and it sold for little more than that new thirteen years ago. Of course it will sit for a long time. It seems like sellers are trying to get the most money for the least options; of course buyers want the most options for the least money.

I don't mind having an older high-quality saw but much of the available merchandise out there is non-salvageable over-used junk. One seller in Indianapolis wants $1250 for an abused very old Powermatic 66 table saw. He states, "Looks a bit beat, but can still do the job. It's a Powermatic! All American Made." Another wants $800 for a Unisaw that looks like he picked it up at a curb. So based on what I have seen in the Midwest the prices are very high for units that should have been parted out years ago.

I will attempt to find an older Unisaw, Powermatic, Jet, or perhaps another 3HP cabinet saw until Grizzly has their spring sale some time in the near future. If I cannot locate one by that time, I will opt for the G0691 or G1023RLW. The forum member who stated it's better to use your time working with wood than endless hours salvaging outdated poorly-maintained machines offered the perfect comment.

[David Kumm]

Rich, the best table saw deals are for the larger saws. 12-14 or PM 72 are much more saw and pretty reasonable in comparison to the 66 or Unisaw that have a cult following. With new saw prices over $3K the used 10" saws are the only ones that have held up price wise. Dave

[Rich Riddle]

David,

Thank you for that input. The application is fairly limited to the size, so it's likely a 10" model will have to suffice. The used 10" market seems a bit disappointing and frustrating. On the other hand, Jet is having a 15% sale until March 18, 2012 and including delivery it puts their 10" for about $2,000. I can't see paying nearly that much for a used saw hundreds of miles away and having to hassles of pickup and driving. With the riving knife, it makes the newer saws look quite a bit more appealing. Of course a Grizzly costs even less.

[Jeff Duncan]

First of all the one thing that hasn't been mentioned which IMHO is very important is patience! I saw a couple posts from guys in my neighborhood saying there's nothing in this area....what:confused: I can't go a week without seeing a machine I would pick up if I had the room or cash. Patience my friends is passing on an $800 Unisaw so when one comes up at auction you bring it home for $235. Patience is passing on dozens of shapers, so when the Martin comes up you bring it home for $1100. Patience is what has allowed me to have a shop full of industrial machinery for often times less than a shiny new Grizzly would cost. Patience is what the younger guys seem to lack, which is why there's plenty of good machinery for those of us who appreciate it.

Second is knowledge...Van, riving knives have been around a lot longer than you or I. You certainly can buy an older table saw with a riving knife that will work better than most of the junk you can buy today. Doing the homework and amassing knowledge about the older equipment is also of great importance if your going to go down this road.

As far as the prices for anything Craftsman....yes they're in the toilet. Simply put you can buy better quality stuff nowadays for short money.

Now one thing I would argue with is the idea of buying outdated poorly maintained machines. If you do this, sure your going to spend a lot of time working on the machines, but why would you buy a machine like that if you don't want to??? Most of the equipment in my shop was plug and play. Do you really think all these industrial machines are just sitting around waiting to fall apart??? Seriously??? I've rebuilt one machine in my shop b/c I wanted to and it was worth it to me. Most machines get tuned up, (just as you would with a new machine), cleaned up, (not much different than cleaning all that cosmoline off), and oiled/greased where needed. In fact the reason I buy industrial machinery now is so that I can spend my time working with wood and not the machines;)

FWIW I'm glad the younger guys are buying Grizzly and such....it leaves more good stuff for me:D

JeffD

[Rod Sheridan]

As others have said it's the region you live in, the distance you are willing to travel, and how patient and/or lucky you are.

I sold a General jointer and planer for 50% of the current new cost, they lasted about 10 minutes before I had the first of several e-mails asking to buy them.

Next sale items were a General cabinet saw and shaper, 50% of new cost, sold in about 5 minutes for the shaper, 10 minutes for the tablesaw.

Both sale events were internal to the company I work for, aproximately 500 people.

Purchasing used industrial equipment can be a great way to do it, if I didn't have a shop in the basement of a townhouse I would do it. However, since I wanted a compact Euro set, the used market was pretty much non existant for me. There were larger sliders in the 8 foot range, at bargain prices, zero sliders in the 4 foot range.

Regards, Rod.

[Van Huskey]

Second is knowledge...Van, riving knives have been around a lot longer than you or I. You certainly can buy an older table saw with a riving knife that will work better than most of the junk you can buy today. Doing the homework and amassing knowledge about the older equipment is also of great importance if your going to go down this road.

JeffD


Very true. This is certainly an area where I seem to need to be "schooled". First, I suppose I got stuck on the fact that they always seem to call them splitters in the manuals and since I suppose a riving knife is a subset of splitters (ie all RKs are splitters but not all splitters are RKs it makes sense). The FEW old table saws I have seen with what was called a riving knife didn't seem to operate like a "modern" riving knife. They didn't stay close to the blade when the blade was dropped, they remained in the same vertical plane. I would be interested in what old iron has a riving knife and how its operation compares to the riving knives on current light duty cabinet saws. I am always interested in learning!

[Chris Woodward]

I am the third owner of an old boat building shop(1930) that the original owner fitted out with Delta equiptment as he could afford it. This is all 1940s- 50era equiptment, which has stood up better than the building sad to say. 1.5hp and 3hp shapers, 10 and 12 inch table saws, 12 inch disc grinder, all on mobil bases to move when needed. I have replaced a couple of bearings which is the extent of the repairs. Keep them greased and oiled and they turn just fine. Around 1980 the owner that I took over from bought a Royobi 10 inch planer. A quality tool, it finally spun a bearing and melted the plastic race about 2 years ago. The Grizzly 12 inch replacement is a peice of crap. Won't throw chips is its biggest drawback so far.The Grizzley 16 inch bandsaw that took over from a 1910 36 inch ships saw(worn Babbitt bearings) like wise is not a quality tool. There is not an adjustment on the machine that will stay true. I have replaced the bearings on it 3 time in 8 years. The were not cheap, good tools but I was hoping they might be good cheap tools. Not so much. My father always said to buy good tools,You get what you pay for. To soon old, to late smart.

[Michael Mayo]

There is a Rikon 18" bandsaw on my local CL that has been listed for weeks. Ad states it was bought for a shop expansion that never happened and it has been used little. The original asking price was $1200 it is now listed at $1,000 and still no bites that I can see. Now this seems to be a good saw but people looking on CL are looking for bargains and $1,000 for a Rikon bandsaw is not a bargain to most people. I like to buy older machines and fix them to use. I enjoy refurbishing old machinery it is something that is fun and rewarding. Some guy's don't enjoy that to each his own. Patience is definitely the key when trolling CL and you have to be johnny on the spot when a good deal does show up that is for sure.

[Van Huskey]

The Grizzley 16 inch bandsaw that took over from a 1910 36 inch ships saw(worn Babbitt bearings) like wise is not a quality tool.

In defence of Grizzly their new 513 series of 17" saws are a far cry better than the 16" saws (I assume it is a 1073). Curious why you didn't re-pour the babbits? I do understand that it looks like a pain from the outside and I have never done it, but a lot of people do.

[Van Huskey]

Purchasing used industrial equipment can be a great way to do it, if I didn't have a shop in the basement of a townhouse I would do it. However, since I wanted a compact Euro set, the used market was pretty much non existant for me. There were larger sliders in the 8 foot range, at bargain prices, zero sliders in the 4 foot range.

Regards, Rod.

That is a key for many people, you have to be flexible or willing to wait. Lack or room, lack of time and/or desire for a specific machine all make it more difficult to go the used route. In your case there aren't a lot of short stroke sliders around used and there are an increasing number of hobbyists that want them which results in a supply and demand situation that when they do come up they will either sell in minutes or they will command a price that makes buying new look pretty attractive.

[Jack Vines]

Yes, one either enjoys the tao of fixing/rebuilding/tuning older machinery or one doesn't. The upside, in addition to being able to buy a fixer-upper for less, when rehabbed, the owner knows the machine and adjustments inside out. Having a solid machine operating as designed allows the woodworker to speed the wood through the dimensioning stage and produce a beautiful, useful product.

Can't tell you how many times I've watched a woodworker wrestle with an out-of-adjustment machine, not having a clue why it is frustrating him. It's about working wood and the machine is just a part of the process.

I/We need to constantly remind ourselves the machine is a tool for hastening the dimensioning of wood so it can be made into something beautiful and useful. There is another forum for those who collect and restore woodworking machinery. On there, many will admit to never actually doing any woodworking. For them, the machine has become the end unto itself.

jack vines

[Rich Riddle]

I/We need to constantly remind ourselves the machine is a tool for hastening the dimensioning of wood so it can be made into something beautiful and useful. There is another forum for those who collect and restore woodworking machinery. On there, many will admit to never actually doing any woodworking. For them, the machine has become the end unto itself.

jack vines
I belong to that other site you discuss. I asked earlier in the week about folks with 10" saws for sale and was bombarded with e-mail correspondence from people trying to sell machines in worst condition than ones I have seen put on a curb. They all offered to sell the machines that "needed a little work" for between $1,000 and $2,000. I actually prefer to work with older machines, and own a small Inca with a riving knife. It was produced in the 1980's. That said, I simply don't want to purchase older machines at high prices and in need of lots of work. One member there was trying to convince me to buy a Unisaw that could not cut angle cuts because of an incorrect motor. He only wanted $1200 for that saw and an original fence setup.

As far as patience goes, you are correct. I have been looking since about New Year's for a decent 10" cabinet saw up to several hundred miles away. It seems you must answer the ads within minutes because several times people respond indicating the saws were just sold. I can either choose to wait for an OWWM, purchase the Jet on sale, or wait for the Grizzly to go on sale. Many good reviews exist for the Jet, so perhaps I won't wait.

[Van Huskey]

There is a Rikon 18" bandsaw on my local CL that has been listed for weeks. Ad states it was bought for a shop expansion that never happened and it has been used little. The original asking price was $1200 it is now listed at $1,000 and still no bites that I can see. .

Hard sell considering Woodcraft has them on sale for $1099 right now...

[Steve Meliza]

A few days ago I saw a 36" Cresent band saw get listed for $1000 within a few minutes of its being posted. Some SMC members would have jumped on it in a heartbeat, but all I could do was wipe away a tear and wave goodbye to it. For me it was way too big for my small work area, I would have had to drop everything and go running to get it, I'd need the seller's help to load the saw and a miracle to unload it, my wife would take one look then hand me a sleeping bag and pillow, and I'd still not have a working band saw.

The OP was talking about selling Craftsman and a Unisaw, that is a far cry from the industrial tools at bargain prices that people have been mentioning. Industrial machines aside, to get a fair deal on a quality used tool on CL you have to spend your time on the computer instead of out in the shop or at work earning a paycheck. Sometimes you get lucky, but sometimes if you need a tool you just have to read the reviews and buy the best you can afford at the time. Reading reviews is how I know a 12" Grizzly planer is not the tool to spend your money on.

[Jeff Duncan]

I/We need to constantly remind ourselves the machine is a tool for hastening the dimensioning of wood so it can be made into something beautiful and useful. There is another forum for those who collect and restore woodworking machinery. On there, many will admit to never actually doing any woodworking. For them, the machine has become the end unto itself.

jack vines

Jack, that's funny, I still remember one of the first things I learned in trade school was how to disassemble and re-assemble a simple smoothing plane. You didn't use it until you understood how it worked. Now we didn't tear apart the woodworking machines, but we did have to understand how they worked. These days many guys buy a machine from the box store take it home and plug it in without having a clue how it actually works, or that it needs to be tuned before use!

Rich, if you need the saw then at some point you have to make the decision. You say you've been waiting since New Years...which one:eek: I waited 10 years for my Martin shaper! I had machines I made due with of course, started out with a Delta HD and gradually upgrade from there. Putting together a good shop is a something that's taken me over a decade to accomplish. Again, I'm not saying you should wait around for years for the right saw to come around, just that if you really wanted a certain saw patience is a must. I have a buddy who bought the Jet a couple years back and he seemed pretty happy with it. Was always trying to tell me it was just as good as my Uni's, and he may have been right. It's just that I bought both my Uni's and a fair amount of blades and other stuff for less than he paid for his new saw;)

Also CL is just a starting point, I've bought a couple machines there over the years, but more often than not it's stuff that's priced too high, or if it's priced low it's gone quick. I look at CL, several online forums have classifieds, flea-bay, live and online auctions, and I've even purchased from dealers when I did not have the luxury of waiting for the right machine to come around. That other site you guys mentioned often has some good deals for old equipment, but it sounds like you didn't make out well there. FWIW in my area the going rate for a plug and play Uni is somewhere around $400 - $900 depending on age and condition. Powermatic 66's have sat on CL for months at $900. Now prices and availability are going to vary widely across the country, but I'd take the 66 for $1k or less over just about anything new.


good luck,
JeffD

[Greg Portland]

FWIW, I bought a Robland fifteen years ago. It does have a smaller footprint than five separate machines, but I can't see it being a bit safer than the fifty-year-old Delta Unisaw, jointer, planer shaper it replaced.
jack vines
Hi Jack,
I think we can all agree that there are no "safe" tools. However, the perception (either marketing or actual facts) is that the bridge guard is safer for planer operations and that a large sliding table + clamps makes ripping much safer because you are nowhere near the blade or kickback zone.

[Myk Rian]

These days, used table saws sell for less than they did twenty years ago. I've got a couple of Craftsman 10" TS I'd have fixed up and sold, but there's no demand and it's no longer worth the investment of time or parts. Radial arm saws have no market at all any more. I literally can't give one away.
Not much market for C-man items.


It really came home to me last week when I listed a 1948 Delta Unisaw for sale on craigslist and haven't gotten a single call. Again, years back, a classic Unisaw would have sold the first day.
List it on www.owwm.org BOYD classifieds.


What are you seeing as to used woodworking machinery prices in your locales?
Prices on GOOD used USA made machines has stayed up around here.

[Kirk Poore]

Rich, if you need the saw then at some point you have to make the decision. You say you've been waiting since New Years...which one:eek: I waited 10 years for my Martin shaper! I had machines I made due with of course, started out with a Delta HD and gradually upgrade from there. Putting together a good shop is a something that's taken me over a decade to accomplish. Again, I'm not saying you should wait around for years for the right saw to come around, just that if you really wanted a certain saw patience is a must.
good luck,
JeffD

It took me over 7 years to go from small Dewalt RAS, bad 10" Craftsman TS, portaplaner, and cheapo Taiwanese DP to a shop full of 18 machines. Many times that included just keeping an eye out for good deals and upgrading--I'm on my third lathe, for example. The easiest way to make "the best" show up is to buy "good enough" right now.

Kirk

[Rich Riddle]

Rich, if you need the saw then at some point you have to make the decision. You say you've been waiting since New Years...which one:eek: I waited 10 years for my Martin shaper! I had machines I made due with of course, started out with a Delta HD and gradually upgrade from there. Putting together a good shop is a something that's taken me over a decade to accomplish. Again, I'm not saying you should wait around for years for the right saw to come around, just that if you really wanted a certain saw patience is a must. I have a buddy who bought the Jet a couple years back and he seemed pretty happy with it. Was always trying to tell me it was just as good as my Uni's, and he may have been right. It's just that I bought both my Uni's and a fair amount of blades and other stuff for less than he paid for his new saw;)

Also CL is just a starting point, I've bought a couple machines there over the years, but more often than not it's stuff that's priced too high, or if it's priced low it's gone quick. I look at CL, several online forums have classifieds, flea-bay, live and online auctions, and I've even purchased from dealers when I did not have the luxury of waiting for the right machine to come around. That other site you guys mentioned often has some good deals for old equipment, but it sounds like you didn't make out well there. FWIW in my area the going rate for a plug and play Uni is somewhere around $400 - $900 depending on age and condition. Powermatic 66's have sat on CL for months at $900. Now prices and availability are going to vary widely across the country, but I'd take the 66 for $1k or less over just about anything new.


Jeff, I have been registered on OWWM since 2005 and have many machines and pictures at that site. Back then it seemed folks selling old iron actually repaired it and had it tuned for a fair price. Now it seems like a bunch of scammers who simply put a coat of paint on top of rust and want thousands of dollars.

There is a current PM 66 for sale in the Macon, GA Craigslisting. He wants $1500 and links you to the site where he shows his "restoration" of the saw. It's missing covers, was painted black with cheap spray paint, the table bows in the middle, it is missing extension legs and is a 5hp 3-phase machine. In the thread where he provides the links he even discusses how bad of condition the saw is/was found. That seems the norm these days instead of the exception. It's unfortunate since I do like OWWM.

Whoever said for us it's the machine working the wood that matters hit the nail on the head. I have a fairly good understanding of how machines work and have even rebuilt a few OWWM, like a Powermatic 143. But in the end, I need a saw that works well and does what is needed. I have several table saws that have helped for years including an old Delta 1160 tilt top. Projects must be started and completed this year - the better half has laid down the law.

If you have other sources for fair prices (not cheap but fair to both parties) then please indicate where those other sources are. I would much rather go OWWM. I do look at the North Carolina woodworking site since I was living in Virginia at one time. Thank you for your help.

[Jack Vines]

I belong to that other site you discuss. I asked earlier in the week about folks with 10" saws for sale and was bombarded with e-mail correspondence from people trying to sell machines in worst condition than ones I have seen put on a curb. They all offered to sell the machines that "needed a little work" for between $1,000 and $2,000. I actually prefer to work with older machines, and own a small Inca with a riving knife. It was produced in the 1980's. That said, I simply don't want to purchase older machines at high prices and in need of lots of work. One member there was trying to convince me to buy a Unisaw that could not cut angle cuts because of an incorrect motor. He only wanted $1200 for that saw and an original fence setup.

As far as patience goes, you are correct. I have been looking since about New Year's for a decent 10" cabinet saw up to several hundred miles away. It seems you must answer the ads within minutes because several times people respond indicating the saws were just sold. I can either choose to wait for an OWWM, purchase the Jet on sale, or wait for the Grizzly to go on sale. Many good reviews exist for the Jet, so perhaps I won't wait.Hi, Rich, wish you were closer. I'm in Spokane, WA and have a plug-n-play original Unisaw I'd love to see go to a good home. It's been on craigslist here for four days at $650 and hasn't generated a single inquiry.

That is what prompted this thread asking if it were the same everywhere. Ten-fifteen years past, I sold two different Unis for about this same $650 price back when money was worth more; which would be $1000 in today's dollars. Next week, I'll drop the price to $500. If it sells for that, it'll mean the value of those iconic saws has depreciated 50%.

jack vines

[Jeff Duncan]

Rich, I listed a bunch of the ways I look, but your in a different market than me. Have you looked at local school auctions? How about IRS auctions? Newspaper classifieds, local machinery dealers? If you want to find the deals in the end it's up to you to get out there and start looking. I just saw a Delta Unisaw in seemingly very good cond. with Beis fence go for $550, and a Powermatic 68 for $450, so deals are still out there to be had. But nobody is going to knock on your door and hand them to you;)

Oh and as far as those sketchy restorations....yup, there are plenty of them out there. My view on it is to never, NEVER buy anything that somebody has restored unless I know exactly what's been done and by whom. In fact as soon as I see anything indicating that someone has done major work to a machine I move on. I generally prefer plug and play original condition equipment. If something needs to be restored than I either want be the one to do it, or will pass and wait for the next one.

As I said if you have to have a saw, then you have to have a saw. Better to have something than nothing! I only post on these threads b/c I have bought new machines for full retail price, and I've regretted every single one of them, (those stories would take far much too time to get into here). Truthfully I'm still paying for machinery I no longer own. If I can help someone else avoid that feeling....then why not.

good luck,
JeffD

[David Kumm]

If you don't do your homework you can get taken buying old or new. It's fairly easy to flush out the bad guys when you are educated on the machine- old or new. Everyone wants ot buy low and sell high but all in all I have met some really neat people dealing with used stuff. You always need to talk to the guy and ask a bunch of questions. Not a bad idea to check all the listings either. More than once I have answered an ad, talked to the seller, and after researching other sites found out the guy was a reseller and the ad shows up with the real seller. The buyer must beware but half truths are just as likely to occur when talking to any salesman. Dave

[Chris Woodward]

In defence of Grizzly their new 513 series of 17" saws are a far cry better than the 16" saws (I assume it is a 1073). Curious why you didn't re-pour the babbits? I do understand that it looks like a pain from the outside and I have never done it, but a lot of people do.

Truth be told, I'm one who would rather be working with wood than working with iron(or Lead). I bought thye grizzley to get me through and never got back to the 36inch. Every time I need to readjust the Griz, I look at the big saw and imagine taking a couple of days tearing it down and rebuilding it.Which is what happened in the first place.I cleaned out the bearing to repack it in grease and found all that grease hardened sawdust WAS the bearing! So some day I'll dedicate it to just be a resaw with a 1 1/4" blade. Mean while there is another boat staring me down and another bill beating me up. Can't wait for retirement with all that time...LOL;)

[Jim Matthews]

I follow this thread with some interest.

I very nearly purchased a 24" Crescent from a boat builder. It had some retrofits to make it relatively safe and a HUGE table.
Some cast iron had been repaired, but the repairs were stable for many years. I did the math on what it would cost to move it professionally.

It was so big, front to back, that I would have lost a parking space in my garage to complete the adoption.

Many of the modern machines that displace this fine old arn are considerably lighter, have built in mobility kits and more powerful motors.
I think the romance and connection to our forebears is why they have such lasting appeal.

[David Kumm]

I follow this thread with some interest.

I very nearly purchased a 24" Crescent from a boat builder. It had some retrofits to make it relatively safe and a HUGE table.
Some cast iron had been repaired, but the repairs were stable for many years. I did the math on what it would cost to move it professionally.

It was so big, front to back, that I would have lost a parking space in my garage to complete the adoption.

Many of the modern machines that displace this fine old arn are considerably lighter, have built in mobility kits and more powerful motors.
#I think the romance and connection to our forebears is why they have such lasting appeal.#"


[
It might also be that they work so well- often even better than new- that it makes us feel that we should do so well in 50 or 75 years. Dave

[Jack Vines]

Many of the modern machines that displace this fine old arn are considerably lighter, have built in mobility kits and more powerful motors.Some random thoughts:

1. Usable, reliable power isn't always what today's advertising claims. Sears wasn't the only one, but was the most visible criminal in lying about motor horsepower.

Back when, an electric motor was rated at the horsepower it would produce indefinitely at full load without damage. As most know today, "peak horsepower" is what the motor develops at stall shortly before the smoke escapes. Today's Craftsman/Grizzly/Jet/Rigid/Ryobi et al motors will not live long or prosper if used at their rated peak horsepower capacity. Learned this lesson yet again when I picked up a nice little compact sliding table Ryobi saw to use for fine trim work. It was neat piece of engineering, but the toy motor in there went TU just shortly after the warranty. Normally, I always repair my machines, but when I removed the motor, it was no larger than would be found in a trim router. Obviously, there was no way that tiny little thing could live in a table saw pulling a large diameter blade, so I didn't invest in another motor. In this case, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

2. Yes, quality of the motors fitted to the import green machines and import white machines have improved greatly over the years. It had to because they were going broke replacing them. I'll never forget seeing a dump truck full of green motors leaving their warehouse here in the northwest going to a Puget Sound scrap yard which ships scrap back over to China.

3. In the end, the quality of import machines depends upon what we're willing to pay. Years back, I visited several factories in China which made these machines. I asked the managers why they didn't make better quality machines and motors. With their low labor costs, they could beat anyone in the world on price and still have good quality. The answer? "We could easily do this. Many quality European brand names are made here. However, your US woodworking tool import companies don't ask us, 'How good can you make it.' They just say, 'How can you make it still cheaper?'"

4. The 1948 Delta Unisaw here at present still has the original motor.

jack vines

[Van Huskey]

Some random thoughts:

1. Usable, reliable power isn't always what today's advertising claims. Sears wasn't the only one, but was the most visible criminal in lying about motor horsepower.

Back when, an electric motor was rated at the horsepower it would produce indefinitely at full load without damage. As most know today, "peak horsepower" is what the motor develops at stall shortly before the smoke escapes. Today's Craftsman/Grizzly/Jet/Rigid/Ryobi et al motors will not live long or prosper if used at their rated peak horsepower capacity. Learned this lesson yet again when I picked up a nice little compact sliding table Ryobi saw to use for fine trim work. It was neat piece of engineering, but the toy motor in there went TU just shortly after the warranty. Normally, I always repair my machines, but when I removed the motor, it was no larger than would be found in a trim router. Obviously, there was no way that tiny little thing could live in a table saw pulling a large diameter blade, so I didn't invest in another motor. In this case, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.


jack vines

If you are talking about universal motors what you say is true, they are often rated at locked rotor HP and thus you have 6hp claims for motors running on a 120V 20 amp circuit. When you are talking about a NEMA fractional horsepower induction motor the HP ratings are very much standardized. There are certainly diffrences in quality and design that can/will effect duty cycle and longevity but that is simply a price point issue. If one looks at the hundreds of thousands of posts here there are not a lot of motor issues, certainly in part because most are hobbyists or very light commercial and never push their machines two shifts a day 52 weeks a year. On top of that most of the issues are capacitor problems, something that 3 phase motors don't have. My point being there are certainly quality differences in some old motors and some new motors but for induction motors horsepower is pretty comparable.

In the end those that love old iron should thank the Asian import brands, if it weren't for them old iron prices would still be high and the only things available new would would have price sheets like Northfield or at least Felder. Take the case of the "little" PM 141 14" bandsaw I think the last year it was in the catalog was 1989, at the time a complete 3/4hp saw (it could be bought ala carte) was priced just under $2,000, that saw if produced today would probably be approaching $4,000. You can buy a saw new with very similar capacities now for 20% of the 1989 price and though I love my PM141 it is not worth 4 times what a Grizzly G0580 costs to me.

I always find this disscussions interesting as I sit on the fence, some of my machines are old iron, some are new Asian and some are modern European each one was bought because they represented value to me. I have been lucky and I am yet to regret a stationary machine purchase, sure there have been better deals I have seen later but each was a satisfactory deal when I bought it. I also often wonder if I walked into the home of the old iron purist if I would find a 1950's era fridge, or a washing machine from the 60s and a lawn mower built in 1972. Old iron requires some time, knowledge and possibly some sweat equity, some enjoy "spending" those things, some don't have that desire.

One more thing about the prices of old iron, the real old iron enthusiasts tend to be bottom feeders that know if they wait they can get a jewel for scrap prices and few are willing to pay "dealer" prices. Your Unisaur will find a home but at the completely fair price you want it will likely go not to a old iron guy (he knows he can pick one up that needs a little work for "nothing" if he waits) but likely to a cash strapped newer woodworker that really wants a cabinet saw but doesn't have the $1,400 to pop for a Grizzly.

[Tom Fischer]

My major concern about the old Iron stuff is dust collection, or lack there of. Back then everybody thought that all kinds of dust were good for you, including asbestos.

Last year I upgraded my cheapo Delta 34-336 TS to a Powermatic 2000. Really clean machine. No looking back.

[Rick Potter]

Jack,

You got me curious, so I just checked. Tonight there are 340 tablesaw listings on my local CL. Mostly Craftsman, but lots of others too.

To answer your question.
I recently bought: Left tilt anniversary edition unisaw with low miles.......$700
Delta oscillating edge sander, like new.......$800
Jet floor model oscillating spindle sander.....$5 or 600, can't remember which.
Delta two spindle horizontal boring machine.....$150. A little rough, but works fine.


Recently sold: Jet 15" planer, like new........$550 or $600, can't remember which either.
Craftsman Hybrid cabinet saw......New, no fence.....$300
Hafele folding shop cart.......like new.............$350

All within the last six months or so. I used to fix up machines and make a few bucks on them, but I stopped at least ten years ago. All the above items were my personal tools.

My rich buddy just bought an 18" turret style Delta RAS, single phase motor, for $175. It had been on CL for at least a week. Haven't seen it yet, but he says it is in good shape. 29 inch crosscut. This same guy picked up a 'Original Saw' 14" inch single phase RAS for $200 a year or so back, that looks almost like new.

And that's what's happenin' around here.
Rick Potter

[Jack Vines]

Agree with everything you said, Van. Especially that the plethora of affordable Asian machinery has driven down the price of older US machines.


Old iron requires some time, knowledge and possibly some sweat equity, some enjoy "spending" those things, some don't have that desire. However, to put it in context, about fifteen years ago, a friend had a new European combo machine and persuaded me to come into at least the 20th century, so I sold my Delta saw, jointer, shaper and planer and bought a Robland. I love many things about it, but I've had to invest at least as much time, knowledge and sweat equity into aligning, tuning and switching functions on this modern machine as the old school machines in separate pieces ever required. More than one combo machine owner has been totally frustrated by his lack of ability and patience to align the sliding table and the jointer tables. The table saw blade height adjustment is a frustration for those who use dados.

The Robland also requires quite a bit more planning of order of operation. One has to do all the sawing before beginning the any of the shaping; not possible to shift back and forth quickly or easily.

Since I'm a solid wood guy more than sheet goods, the sliding table hasn't been the great benefit some ply guys get from it.

Bottom line, whether one should go combo or separates, old school or new retail, it depends. Talk to other woodworkers. Is first cost a preimenent factor? Rather have several old machines or one new one? Decide if one wants to invest time and energy re-habbing old tools. Decide how much the work is sheet goods and how much is solid wood.

Your money, your time, your machine, your hobby - you pays your money and takes your chances.

[Van Huskey]

Agree with everything you said, Van. Especially that the plethora of affordable Asian machinery has driven down the price of older US machines.

However, to put it in context, about fifteen years ago, a friend had a new European combo machine and persuaded me to come into at least the 20th century, so I sold my Delta saw, jointer, shaper and planer and bought a Robland. I love many things about it, but I've had to invest at least as much time, knowledge and sweat equity into aligning, tuning and switching functions on this modern machine as the old school machines in separate pieces ever required.

A very legitimate point. I think the key is everyones experience will be different. My experience has been almost to a machine I have spent time roughly proportional to age getting it up and running and tuned initially. Beyond the initial the time invested to keep them running and in tune has been very similar. I think the longer you are in this hobby the more likely you are to delve into old iron, your comfort level is higher in buying used, your skills are broader to deal with the rehab and tuning and you begin to be able to appreciate and exploit the increases in quality and capacity. The newer someone to woodworking the more likely it is for them to accidentally buy a used lemon and the more difficult it is for them to determine if a problem is a repair issue or just a tuning issue. For example a newbie might spend weeks frustrated with a table saw trying to get the blade and fence aligned where a long time woodworker might quickly see it was an arbor issue and know exactly how to remedy the problem.

[Jeff Duncan]

More good points guys! I will say I did a shaper rebuild this past year I would have not attempted 10 years ago. Comfort level is an important consideration for buying equipment new or used. On the other hand I have several machines in the 30 to 40 year old range that I bought, blew the dust out of, and put to work. I'm of the frame of mind that if it ain't broke...;)

Not sure if it's b/c I've gotten better at picking out machines, or if I'm just very lucky, but I've spent very little time on any of my older heavier equipment. However....when something does need work....or perhaps more importantly, parts, older stuff gets a bit more finicky. You can't just call up the import company and order a new widget. If parts are available they can be pricey, and if not, your machining, (or having someone else machine), new parts for it. That's the price you have to pay to play though:)

JeffD

[Myk Rian]

If you are buying used, go look at it with the attitude that you WILL turn it down.
Gives you a bit better objective than;"I'll take it because it's a 1954 model".
If you want a left tilt saw, you're going to be looking long, and hard.

[Van Huskey]

If you are buying used, go look at it with the attitude that you WILL turn it down.
Gives you a bit better objective than;"I'll take it because it's a 1954 model".
If you want a left tilt saw, you're going to be looking long, and hard.

I have found that hard in the past, I have gotten MUCH better about it. Lately, I leave to go see something with a VERY low price set in my mind, if I can't get it for that I will walk I tell myself. I work it into my thick skull. The when I get there I look it over and if ANYTHING bugs me (not saying it has to be perfect but if it is an issue I don't really feel like dealing with) I stick to the price. Once in a blue moon they actually sell it for that, most times it is an easy out for me. Now, if it is perfect then I let myself get more liberal with the cash. One of the last things I bought was something that was a GREAT buy, though used it was pretty new and still available. I went to buy two things and in the end I think he NEEDED to sell one but didn't need to sell both, it was a job loss situation. When I agreed on the price for one he didn't want to sell the other and I almost had to beg him, well until his wife heard me and MADE him sell it... I was still happy with the deal since I planned to order the eaxct same machine within weeks and I still got it for 40% of the machines cost AND over $1K in accesories, most of which I would have ordered up front and all of which will get used. In the end you just have to do something to stay sane, even if it is excusing yourself to run to the ATM to get cash or check your balance, 20 minutes away from the situation may make making the correct choice easier.

[Roy Turbett]

Yes, one either enjoys the task of fixing/rebuilding/tuning older machinery or one doesn't.

I/We need to constantly remind ourselves the machine is a tool for hastening the dimensioning of wood so it can be made into something beautiful and useful. There is another forum for those who collect and restore woodworking machinery. On there, many will admit to never actually doing any woodworking. For them, the machine has become the end unto itself.

jack vines

I'm a member of that other site and confess that I do enjoy rebuilding the old machines as much as I enjoy woodworking. Many of the machines are works of art in and of themselves and working with them inspires me to seek the same high degree of craftsmanship in my woodworking. I don't see any difference between how I enjoy working on and using my classic tools for woodworking and guys who enjoy working on and driving their classic cars to work. For some the ride is as enjoyable as the destination and the garage/workshop is an art gallery.