Will a 1.5HP Delta 50-760 with Thien baffle be enough for a Hammer A3 31 and N4400?

[Brian LaShomb]

Small basement shop, primarily hand tools. Short runs from the DC to machines, less than a 15 ft run to the A3 31, maybe 5 ft to the bandsaw. I don't know if I need more, or if this will work with the Thien setup?

The numbers say 1200 CFM for the Delta, and the A3 31 needs 500 CFM, the n4400 needs roughly the same. They won't be run at the same time. I know you lose efficiency based on alot of factors, but would you lose 50%?

No plans for any other machines, other than a bench top mortiser. I may add a tablesaw in the future, but it would be in the garage and need its own DC out there.

[Prashun Patel]

Don't know about those machines, but I do use my 50-760 with a Thien separator on my cabinet saw and my bandsaw. It does a fairly decent job. My duct is about 6-8 feet long and is a flexible pipe. There are no wyes or blast gates. I manually move my duct from saw to saw. I also have a cartridge filter, so YMMV with the bag.

For me, the biggest factor in performance has been the ducts and absence of splits and gates. The Thien does not make my collector work better - just at it its peak for longer.

[Brian LaShomb]

Thanks Prashun. I wanted the Delta, but when I added the cost of the Wynn filter, trash can etc, I ended up going with the popular Harbor Freight 2HP model. If anyone is also interested, code INSURE20 gets you $40 off and you can also add SKU 65020 to cart (mini LED flashlight) and use code NOWFREE to get that for free too (was $7). Adding the flashlight didnt change my shipping or tax total. Ended up $195 shipped with tax.

[Curt Harms]

You have similar to what I (Grizzly 1023, Rikon B.S. Jet JJP-12) have and a Penn State "2 h.p." D.C. plumbed with 6" PVC works quite well. If you haven't bought it yet, I'd recommend the spun bond filter. It's more $ but can be washed out vs. the paper blend that can only be vacuumed. I was surprised -- after vacuuming what I thought was pretty clean -- how much more dust came out when I washed it out with a garden hose. Prashun has it right, a Thien baffle won't make a D.C. perform better, it will help to maintain max performance longer by keeping the filter clean longer.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, the A3-31 requires 500CFM (814m3/h) as you indicated, at a vacuum of 3"WC (740 Pa).

If you plug the following into a static pressure calculator

- 1 hood

- 2 right angle elbows

- 10 feet of 5" pipe

- 5 feet of 5" flex

The result is 2.6"WC.

So for the A3-31 you need 5.6"WC, 500CFM minimum. Obviously plug in your actual duct information instead of my guess.

My point is that I own an A3-31, and the 1.5 HP Oneida cyclone I use is not even close to the 1,200 CFM your collector is claiming. My cyclone just handles the A3-31 with a few percent to spare with my small shop piping.

Without a fan curve for your collector you're running blind, and the A3-31 needs the correct airflow to work properly...........Regards, Rod.

[Ryan Mooney]

Brian, I have an A3-31 and the HF 2 HP DC with a Thein top hat. I wouldn't stress the bandsaw as much (I have a grizz 513X2) as its less critical to get great dust collection on that (it helps to keep it clear when resawing - I've resawn up to 12" wide with mine and a that point having dust collection definitely helps keep the table clear).

This setup works ok, with a few caveats.

Short hose runs or you'll have insufficient suction. I have ~8' of 5" flex that I move from machine to machine (I finally have everything laid out where that's not to horrid). Even shorter would be better, if you use smooth wall you can probably get away with longer. I used 5" stovepipe for the top hat inlet (and outlet) which you can just easily squeeze 5" hose over and clamp on. I built a custom cart to hold the impeller/Thien/drum/filter so I can roll it around if needed (the stock HF platform ended up being just a smidge to small and flimsy for me, someone more clever could probably have made it work - its waiting for a new life to be used as a cabinet/calmp rack/?? cart).
I flipped the HF impeller on its side so the opening faces down and hooked up the outlet to the filter/bag assembly with a short piece of 5" stove pipe (sealed with duct sealant). The straight shot helps the airflow substantially. My drum is a top hat that's underneath the impeller and I just wedge the drum up into the impeller+top hat assembly. There are more elegant implementations out there but it works.
The A3-31 will take off more, finer and longer shavings than you would consider possible; especially if you use soft wood. Mine produces shavings 1/4" wide 8+" long and thin as tissue paper in vast quantities in pine (and whatever the wood the pallet it came on is produces longer ones). This has a direct impact on your Thien build. A few things I found for that part:

You'll probably have to open up the drop slot wider than recommended. I ended up with the slot almost 2" wide (started narrower and then kept widening it until it worked). This has some impact on fine dust collection but (at least in my case) less than you'd expect (4 x 30g drums of mixed planer, TS, BS, hand plane shavings, etc... later I have < 1/2 C of dust in the bag. would probably be less if I hadn't overflowed the drum - three times :eek:)
The A3-31 produces insane quantities of shavings. I overflowed the drum twice in ~2 hours while planing some wide cedar (thus proving beyond a doubt that I'm a slow learner). Either put a volume sensor or at least a window on the drum so you can tell how full it is (in progress along with so many other things :D). Some wood is fluffier than others, its easy to be surprised (but I've only been planing for 10 minutes - DOH!)
Don't skimp on the diameter of your top hat/drum. On the 30g drum I have its about 15.5" ID, which is imho a bit small. A larger diameter would mean a correspondingly larger drop slot and - I believe (with a complete lack of direct evidence) allow for better separation and not require you to open up the drop slot as much.
Make absolutely 100% sure than the edges of your drop slot are SMOOTH. Very small bumps will catch long stringy shavings and cause them to "birds nest" up. If you have problems with birds nests forming, polish the edges of the slot and maybe wax them or something.

[Rod Sheridan]

Ryan, glad to hear I'm not the only one who overflowed the collection drum with the A3-31.......LOL............Rod.

[ian maybury]

Presuming it's a genuine 1.5HP and a 12in diameter impeller Brian (it'd be worth measuring the diameter and blade height of the impeller) you could have something around 700CFM at 5in WG, but even if this is the case it's be down to around 350CFM by 8in WG.

A lot depends on your duct diameter, the pressure drop created by the separator, and the filter type and condition - smaller ducts, bag filters and the like quickly add resistance, and the output of these smaller fans is highly sensitive to added pressure drop. (drops away like a stone)

I'd not be surprised if the figure wasn't in practice even higher Rod - quite a bit higher if a bag filter is used. I used a 1KW (1.3HP) mobile unit on a 10in Robland planer and found it pretty marginal - just about picking up chips if the bag was clean, and bogging down in a mess of chips and chip impacted work if not.

It's not going to get near the sort of 800CFM + numbers recommended for good fine dust collection, although that's probably a bit less of an issue with a planer....

ian

[Brian LaShomb]

Mine produces shavings 1/4" wide 8+" long and thin as tissue paper in vast quantities in pine

Wow! Definitely didn't expect that. I'm planning on adding a Byrd head someday, but that'll be a couple years out. My first few years it will be alot of softwoods (including building a workbench). I imagine the helical cutters would reduce chip size.

Rod,
Thanks for the tips! I think I'll simplify it a bit and position the dc so I can get by with one 7-8 ft run with one elbow and give it a try.

[Ryan Mooney]

Wow! Definitely didn't expect that. I'm planning on adding a Byrd head someday, but that'll be a couple years out. My first few years it will be alot of softwoods (including building a workbench). I imagine the helical cutters would reduce chip size.

Yeah neither did I :eek: Amusingly when I was messing with my top hat build I had several people ask me if I had a Byrd (or similar) head..

You can see some pictures of the shavings produced if you go to Phils cgallery message board and search for rumwrks I documented my build (and build issues) there.