Elbow Forces Mortising Decision

[Bob Deroeck]

My tennis elbow is forcing me to abandon my making mortises by hand with a drill press followed by clean up with a chisel. The elbow can't take the hammering of the chisel any more, especially in hardwood.

So, I'm looking at options for using machines to do the work. My research has led to the following conclusions:

1. Don't waste your time with a mortising attachment to a drill press.

2. Lot's of people like their benchtop hollow chisel mortisers. There's also lots of warnings to stay away from the sub-$300 dollar ones. The Powermatic is currently on sale for slightly over $400 and it generally gets good reviews though it has some aggravating issues. A decent set of hollow chisels will add another $200 to the mortising account. The primary downsides to this option appear to be cost, the dedicated benchtop space taken up (or having to heft a 100 pound machine from storage to benchtop), and the rough mortise bottom still requiring cleanup with a chisel.

3. People who can afford Festol domino machines seem to love them, but the cost is approaching $1000. Too much for my mortising budget.

4. Slot mortising jigs look pretty attractive. Greg P. shows a home-made design in FWW that seems to be easy to set up and does a nice job of producing repeatable mortises. The cost of materials looks to be less than $200 and Greg says it will take a day to put it together. The downsides of this option appears to be more noise and sawdust compared to a hollow chisel benchtop mortiser and the round corners of the mortise made by the router bit. If round corners are not acceptable for a project, then they would need to be squared manually using a chisel.

Based on the above, I've narrowed my choices to buying a Powermatic (or equivalent) hollow chisel mortiser or making a Greg P-type slot mortising jig. And, I'm leaning towards the slot mortising jig.

I'd appreciate comments from you Creekers on where my conclusions are wrong or misguided, other considerations that I have overlooked in my evaluation of these four options, and other options besides these four options for making mortises.

Thanks.


Bob

[Kent A Bathurst]

Sorry about the elbow. That's tough. Does that mean you've got some nice chisels to sell? :D

My opinions [no charge, and worth every penny]:

1. Correct. The setup is a PITA, IMO.

2. I love my benchtop. However.....I have the PM 719A - predecessor to the 719T. It comes with/came with a base that I never used...mine is on a bench. The problem, of course, is the cost is at the $1K threshold, although used ones appear from time-to-time. I started with a typical benchtop mortiser, but the fence alignment was too much of a hassle for me, plus you have to move the part for each plunge. The X-Y table movement on the 719 is excellent.

There are other brands with a similar table, but I have zero knowledge on them. My PM is ~12 years old, and doing great.

BTW - While some might consider this heresy, I often over-plunge the depth so that I don't have to fool around with any serious clean-out at the bottom. This doesn't compromise the glue surfaces....gluing the tenon end-grain to the mortise bottom isn't going to add anything.

From your list above, I would go with the home-built slot mortiser, and use floating tenons with round ends. The only instance that comes to mind where that would be a problem is with exposed through-tenons, as are common in Arts & Crafts stuff, which is a large part of what I do. If that would be a restriction on your work, then I'd guess your are in the benchtop camp by default.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Bob, I've owned the General International benchtop model for 11 years, great machine.

You're correct about the less expensive models, stay away from them.

All mortisers require substantial effort to pull the lever downwards, if that's a problem for your elbow, it crosses that off the list.

A slot mortiser such as the Felder would be great, personally I can't stand the noise or dust of routers so I don't own one.

If you have a Euro jointer/planer the slot mortiser attachment is great as well.

Regards, Rod.

[frank shic]

bob, did you try wearing the tennis elbow brace?

[glenn bradley]

First off, my sympathies. I have a bit of a gimpy elbow myself so, flattening large panels with a hand plane is not part of my fun. As to your points (I submit the usual disclaimer that this is JMHO).

1. Correct and generally accepted ;-)

2. In the smaller footprint I settled (but did not buy) the General 75-050T and has a street price around $600.

3. The Domino serves a completely different purpose than what I use tenons for but, they are very cool.

4. I saved the shop real estate (which is always at a premium) and went with the Mortise Pal (about $200). This handles nearly all my M&T requirements. The exception being mortises in the middle of a large surface; the Domino can do this, I don't have one. I do not know that this would be your choice as there is the operation of a plunge router involved. If that is the motion that sets your elbow on fire, a machine that you bring the material to (instead of the other way around) would be more appropriate.

[Neil Brooks]

BTW - While some might consider this heresy, I often over-plunge the depth so that I don't have to fool around with any serious clean-out at the bottom. This doesn't compromise the glue surfaces....gluing the tenon end-grain to the mortise bottom isn't going to add anything.


Personally, I almost always do that.

Tragically, that means that brain-farts have caused me to mortise right through to the other mortise, on a table leg, before.

D'OH !

You know that fleeting moment (I think it's called an "igniosecond") when a piece of wood falls to the floor, and you realize .....

I have a 1/2HP Grizzly mortiser. (http://www.grizzly.com/products/1-2-HP-Bench-Top-Mortising-Machine/G0645) I've slightly lapped the metal bits, keep it nicely lubed, and did a nice job of finishing the chisels (sharpen, hone). I find it works absolutely fine, and without seeming to require a gorilla pull on the lever.

Good luck ... both with the decision and the elbow !

[Bob Deroeck]

Tennis elbow is caused by the hammering action putting a "shock" stress on the tendon joining the bone to the muscle at the elbow. Whether the whacking is from a hammer or a tennis racket, it has the same effect. I've found braces help a little, but the primary way to prevent or cure tennis elbow is to just limit your whacking. Once the tennis elbow starts, the only cure is complete rest for weeks or months at a time. So, I've replaced hammers with air guns and that solves the problem with hammering nails. One or two hand-cut mortises in hardwood a week is not a problem, but doing 3 or 4 a day is asking for trouble.

Rod, putting force on the elbow by pulling on the lever of a bench hollow chisel mortiser would not be a problem, because there is no hammering effect on the tendon. So, a hollow chisel mortiser is a viable option for me.

Bob

[Van Huskey]

For benchtop mortisers PM or General is the way to go if you want quality.

With one of the above chisels and a tennoning jig you are approaching $700 +/- I would suggest you consider the Leigh Super FMT. Assuming you have a plunge router it will run you about the same money all in and it will produce quick and easy joints. I prefer it to a hollow chisel mortiser and to a floating tennon. Just another option.

[Thomas Hotchkin]

Bob
You might like to look at this home made slot mortiser on You Tube. It on my short list of mortising tools, would like a JDS Multi-Router after using one on a chair build some years ago, just can't seam come up that much money for mortiser. Tom http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciXplz3SrMk

[Carl Beckett]

I would look at used equipment.

I picked up a Wirth machine a while back (similar to the JDS Thomas mentions).

Also have seen General Mortisers at a good price, but I passed on these (I know a guy in CT that had a great deal on a practically new one, we could see if he still has it?).

And also picked up a WoodRat.

The Woodrat is my first choice, although the Wirth wins with certain setups (such as mortising the center region of a long leg for a chair). (both of these I picked up used in the $500 range)

I have a drill press attachment and it now sits on a shelf.

Bob - you arent too far from me so if you want to come up and try any of these out you are welcome (we will just have to schedule it between pinewood derby work).

[frank shic]

a cortisone shot also works wonders but the best treatment is prevention

[John Coloccia]

Tennis elbow is caused by the hammering action putting a "shock" stress on the tendon joining the bone to the muscle at the elbow. Whether the whacking is from a hammer or a tennis racket, it has the same effect. I've found braces help a little, but the primary way to prevent or cure tennis elbow is to just limit your whacking. Once the tennis elbow starts, the only cure is complete rest for weeks or months at a time. So, I've replaced hammers with air guns and that solves the problem with hammering nails. One or two hand-cut mortises in hardwood a week is not a problem, but doing 3 or 4 a day is asking for trouble.

Rod, putting force on the elbow by pulling on the lever of a bench hollow chisel mortiser would not be a problem, because there is no hammering effect on the tendon. So, a hollow chisel mortiser is a viable option for me.

Bob

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this. I would be very surprised if your doctor told you that, and if he did you may want to consult a specialist or get a new doctor. There are many things thought to cause tennis elbow, including over exertion and repetitive motion. I developed it from hand tool use (not hammering...just rasps, planes and things like that). It was so bad for a while that I couldn't pick up a quart of milk with my left hand. I really had to reevaluate how I used my tools, and how to relieve stress off my joints. I could definitely see using that using a mortiser could well aggravate your condition.

I'm not a doctor, but I am concerned that you don't aggravate it even more...it's a miserable condition.

[Harry Simms]

The current issue of Wood magazine has a review of benchtop mortisers. The Powermatic 701PM was rated their top tool. The Grizzly G0645 was rated top value. If you are considering buying one, there is a lot of good info regarding features and capabilities in this article.

[Van Huskey]

The current issue of Wood magazine has a review of benchtop mortisers. The Powermatic 701PM was rated their top tool. The Grizzly G0645 was rated top value. If you are considering buying one, there is a lot of good info regarding features and capabilities in this article.

Although you can't read the article you can compare the numbers here:

http://toolreviews.woodmagazine.com/top-editor-rated-mortising-machines

[Jim Matthews]

Have you seen the horizontal slot mortiser (http://stammerjohn.com/tag/inca/) made from an Inca table?

I'm about to violate one of my own rules (Thou shalt not make shop tools when the tool store is open...)
and make one of these. I like Mattias Wandel's design, and this is essentially the same set up.

If you're making lots of mortises, the slot mortiser is MUCH easier to handle.
If you're making less than ten a day, I would be surprised if a benchtop (vertical throw) mortiser didn't do the job well.

Tennis elbow sucks. In 2006 I had it so bad I couldn't turn a car key, or open a bottle of Ibuprofen.
Rest Ice Compression Elevation - RICE

[Myk Rian]

How about a router mortiser? There are many types to choose from.

[Myk Rian]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this.
I agree with your dis-agreeing.
I got TE for the first time last year. All I was doing last summer was playing softball.

[John TenEyck]

I built a router based horizontal slot mortiser, using some of Greg P's design, but with a height adjustable router plate.

226668

It cost about $50 to make and less than 8 hours. I have cut hundreds of mortises with it, 1/4" to 1/2", on pieces large and small, flat and curved, straight and angled. After I added a Rockler Down Under dust collector attachment the dust collection is probably 75%. There are so many advantages to the horizontal mortiser and a router based one, besides being cheap to build, gives you very smooth side walls with no clean-up required, and exactly 90 deg to the face placed on the moritser table. I use shop made loose tenons with it most often, and round end ones work just fine. On a recent Arts and Crafts project, however, I cut the mortises with the slot mortiser, but cut integral tenons on the rails with the table saw. In that case, I squared up the ends of the mortises with a chisel.

Here's a picture of an interior door I built using the mortiser for all the loose tenon joints. As you can see, it can handle large pieces of stock.

226669

Here is a link to more pictures of the "machine":

http://picasaweb.google.com/JohnTenEyck54/SlotMortiser?authuser=0&feat=directlink

Finally, here's a link to where you can find a drawing of the mortiser, pretty close to what I actually built. Look down at the bottom of the page. I built it from a single piece of 3/4" MDF, 2 x 4 ft. I've used it for over two years and cut hundreds of mortises, as I mentioned. The action is smooth and w/o slop, both summer and winter, even though the runners are maple.


http://sites.google.com/site/jteneyckwoodworker/current-projects

I'm pretty sure you'll be happy if you build something like this. If you have any questions you can send me a PM, anytime.

John

[Jim Matthews]

So the workpiece is manipulated by holding onto the toggle clamps?

This is MUCH simpler than other versions I have seen.
Good onya, mate.

[Don Jarvie]

How about hollowing out the mortise with a fornster bit and then paring the sides. If you chisels are sharp you should be able to pare the side without the mallet. It maybe worth a shot before you invest in a new machine.

[John TenEyck]

So the workpiece is manipulated by holding onto the toggle clamps?

This is MUCH simpler than other versions I have seen.
Good onya, mate.


Typically I put one hand on a toggle clamp and the other on the top sliding table. As for it being simple - thank you. The simplicity makes it easy to build, easy to set up, and very accurate. And did I mention, it cost about $50 to build.

John

[John TenEyck]

I forgot a couple of interesting things. You can make some dovetails on this machine; some that would be much harder to do on a router table. For example:

226679

Also, by clamping the stop limits tight to the lower sliding table, only the upper table can move so the machine acts like a horizontal drill. By using removeable stop blocks between the table stop and the end of your work piece you can drill spaced dowel holes quickly and accurately, without worry of the drill bit wandering.

I use Onsrud HSS spiral cutters. With the 3/4" thick back plate this limits my depth of cut to about 1-1/2". For most applications this is not a problem, but for 1/2" mortises on a heavy door stile, for example, it is. To remedy this shortcoming I could either buy longer bits, or more likely, I will move the router mounting plate to the front of the back plate.

John

[Michael Heffernan]

I have both the Leigh FMT Pro and the Powermatic PM701 benchtop mortiser. Both fill a need in my shop. But since I got the FMT Pro it is my go to for M&T joints. Extremely precise and repeatable, once set up for a joint. Since I use it so much, set up is easy. Took a while to get the hang of properly positioning the cam clamps for each joint, but eventually became second nature. If your doing production work, it may not necessarily be what you need, but it is extremely versatile for non-through M&Ts. And it easy on the wrists and elbows. I'm coming through a couple of months of the elbow pain and have been cutting a lot of M&Ts on the FMT all the while. As for the PM701, great machine for larger mortising work. I built a riser stand, got rid of the stock base and hold down, and installed an X-Y axis vise. Added a set of Japanese made mortising chisels from Lee Valley, keep them honed and lapped, and they make quick work of the mortises. Tenons are done on the TS with my Delta tenoning jig. The good thing about the PM701 is that the downstroke handle can be mounted left or right side. So, if right handed and you've got the elbow problem there, mount it left side until that elbow hurts!

[Van Huskey]

As for the PM701, great machine for larger mortising work. I built a riser stand, got rid of the stock base and hold down, and installed an X-Y axis vise.

Would love to see pictures of your mods.

[Michael Heffernan]

Van,
You can see the mods at my post from a couple of years ago. Got some ideas for outrigger supports with adjustable stops, just haven't gotten to it.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?121734-Benchtop-Mortiser-with-Cross-Slide-Vise&highlight=
Sorry, not trying to hijack this thread.


Would love to see pictures of your mods.

[Van Huskey]

Very cool, I think I will bump the thread as it is a very good idea!

[Neil Brooks]

Great way to go, and ... OhForWhatIt'sWorth ... for 70 or 80 bucks, HF has a cross-slide vise that -- if you take it apart, lap the ways, lube it, and re-assemble it -- is a very good tool.

I primarily use mine on the DP, but have used it on the mortiser, and will likely modify my mortiser to accept it more readily.

Very cool gizmos, I think.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Very cool, I think I will bump the thread as it is a very good idea!
Two comments. My orthopedic surgeon says that tennis elbow is very common among us over 50, but that with a corticosteroid injection and proper exercises it is a one time event. Cheaper than new machines, though I've always been torn between a domino and a horizontal mortiser. Best elbow brace I've used is the band-it recommended by my sister who works with the Seattle ballet. Used by the dancers who torque their joints to the max! Really works great. Probably even better if I did the exercises.

[Mark Levitski]

Can either of the FMT models be used to put a mortise into a larger flat surface like the underside of a tabletop? IOW, can the table of the jig be separated from the vertical clamping part to then someow be placed as a jig for mortises? I am looking for easier ways to make M & T joints for certain designs of tables/legs. Thanks...........Mark

[Kent A Bathurst]

Van,
You can see the mods at my post from a couple of years ago. Got some ideas for outrigger supports with adjustable stops, just haven't gotten to it.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?121734-Benchtop-Mortiser-with-Cross-Slide-Vise&highlight=
Sorry, not trying to hijack this thread.

There you go Michael. I had seen your thread, forgot all about it.

That is a great way to deal with my personal opinions of the shortcomings of the benchtops. I could see where a "throat capacity" issue could arise, but that would probably be on the extreme end of the spectrum of part sizes.

The outriggers would be way cool.

FWIW - with my PM719A sitting on a bench [which is always cluttered all to heck with stuff.....I clean it off, and come back n the morning, and it's like fishes-and-loaves....dang thing is full of stuff again :mad:]. But - if I clean it off, I have made-from-scrap stacks of wood that hold roller-conveyor rollers from grainger that equal the table height. I have had to mortise some really long stuff - too long for the clamp to hold securely.

[Michael Heffernan]

Mark,
There are shortcomings to the FMT. No the table cannot be separated from the jig body (as far as I know). It can handle stock up to about 3" X ? (never checked out how deep a piece will fit on the clamp face and be able to use the cam clamps). I only us it for your typical M&T joints and some angled ones (chair rails for example). Only way I know of to mortise into large flat surfaces is to either build a router jig and use a template bushing with a straight bit or drill out freehand the majority of the mortise and clean it up with a chisel.
Definitely a great jig for the majority of my needs, but as with all jigs there are other applications that can't be done and we need to get creative.


Can either of the FMT models be used to put a mortise into a larger flat surface like the underside of a tabletop? IOW, can the table of the jig be separated from the vertical clamping part to then someow be placed as a jig for mortises? I am looking for easier ways to make M & T joints for certain designs of tables/legs. Thanks...........Mark

[richard poitras]

How about a Mortis Pal or a Dowel Max ?

[Bob Deroeck]

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions on tennis elbow and mortising options.

I'll probably build a jig based on John Ten Eyck's design. This looks to do the job well while applying almost no stress to your body parts.

Regards,

Bob Deroeck

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