Liogier handlemaker rasps

[Derek Cohen]

Near the end of last year I suggested to Noel Liogier that his company manufacture rasps for making handles. Up to that stage the only company I knew of that made these was Gramercy, and they had not had any in stock for quite a while. Noel mentioned this on the forum, and so I thought others here would find this interesting.


Liogier rasps appear to have made a recent rapid emergence onto the world woodworking stage although they have been as well known and respected in Europe as is Auriou. In general they appear to be of similar quality, but slightly less expensive than their better known cousins.


A few weeks ago I received 5 pre-production rasps for evaluation. I had to put them aside while building my bench. As a result I have only had a couple of days to play with them and come up with a meaningful assessment process.


The handlemaker rasps differ from others by their curved blades. They are also only stitched on one side, the other being "safe" - no teeth. Both the curve and the safe side are to enable one to rasp inside a handle without touching (and scoring) the opposite side.


The teeth are measured in "grain", with more grains leaving a smoother finish. The coarsest rasps would be a 1, and the smoothest a 15.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Liogier handlemakers rasps/Liogier7.jpg


The centre three rasps are 15, 12, and 9 grains. There is a flat/curved 14 grain rasp to the left and a coarse rat tailed rasp to the right.


Here is an illustration of the penetration by one of the handlemaker rasps and a straight Auriou ..


First in a plane handle:


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Liogier handlemakers rasps/Liogier5.jpg


... and then in a saw handle:


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Liogier handlemakers rasps/Liogier6.jpg


My brief experience with these curved rasps indicated that the curve was just right. The exception here was the flat/curve, which I thought to be too flat.


Second from the bottom, flanked by the half-round curved rasps:


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Liogier handlemakers rasps/Liogier8.jpg


The value of this rasp would be when rasping the outside faces of the handle.


For comparison I had my Aurious. Here is a sample of the performance of all the rasps on Poplar:


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Liogier handlemakers rasps/Liogier2.jpg


Performances between the Liogier (top) and Auriou (bottom) are very similar grain-for-grain, given that the rasps are different grains. That is a 14 is similar to a 15 but with slightly more coarse, etc.


The question someone will ask is "how many rasps does one require?". I liken it to sharpening a blade: a coarse medium will hog waste away quickly. Then, however, one must remove the marks this process creates, and continue this process until you reach the finish you desire.


In the picture below the first stroke is with a coarse 9 grain rasp. The second is the 9 grain followed by a 12 and 15. The third is the 9 grain followed by only the 15 grain.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Liogier handlemakers rasps/Liogier1.jpg


It can be seen that the three-rasp process leaves the best finish, and that jumping from a 9 grain to a 15 grain will leave a evidence of the 9 grain teeth.


Downsides? I think that the handles on two of the rasps was too small. Here they are alongside my Aurious, which have Lutz file handles.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Liogier handlemakers rasps/Liogier3.jpg


Only brief comments about the rat tail rasp - there was only the one coarse version. It removed waste very rapidly. It needs to be partnered with a lesser coarse rasp to bridge the gap to the handlemakers versions.


In conclusion, these are very nice rasps, ones that I could certainly use in my workshop, and I shall be placing an order for a similar set.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Eric Brown]

Thanks Derek for the info. Are these rasps able to be sharpened down the road? Acid process or something else?
If I recall correctly, the Gramercy is some type of stainless. Not sure if acid would work.

Thanks. Eric

[David Weaver]

I would think 3 rasps would be a bit presumptuous (or treading way into extravagance and indulgence, presumptuous isn't the right word) unless someone was going to make dozens and dozens (and dozens and dozens) of saw handles.

I probably would opt for the #12 cut, work close to a line or facet and then finish the job/remove the tool marks with a short dowel and sandpaper.

But if these rasps are more $$ than the gramercy rasp, and the gramercy rasp is in stock, I would just buy the gramercy rasp. It's probably a tall order for them to even consider a price close to the gramercy rasp, though it's always nice to have options.

But even as someone who has made several dozen plane totes, including a few closed handles, and four saw handles (including two closed ones), I wouldn't buy more than one sawmaker's rasp (which is really only necessary for closed-handle work - though I would absolutely buy one purpose-made sawhandle rasp if I were going to make more than one closed handle) unless you just can't figure out where else to spend a few hundred dollars.

Just my opinion.

[Niels Cosman]

Thanks for the heads up on these. Any idea when they will be offering them for sale?
Cheers,
Niels

[Scott Flamm]

Thanks for the info Derek. I have been waiting for the Gramercy rasp to be restocked, but if Liogier is comming out with a version I would definitely consider getting it. One question that I have is what grain size equates to the Gramercy saw handle makers rasp? The Gramercy rasp is listed as 20 TPI.

[Sean Richards]

I probably would opt for the #12 cut, work close to a line or facet and then finish the job/remove the tool marks with a short dowel and sandpaper.

Dowel and sandpaper really? Surely you need at least 5-6 hand made rasps in different curvatures and cuts to make a handle or two ;)

[David Weaver]

Here I thought I was stepping it up with the dowel and sandpaper! I've wrapped files with sandpaper, too (i kind of like how old files work on wood, and you can get them cheap), and probably markers and pens, whatever I could get my hands on at the bench without having to walk far.

I did buy the gramercy rasp early on, i'm not exactly a minimalist. I'm pretty sure I asked george what the best way to get clean lines was, and I think that's where I got the dowel and sandpaper idea.

Or maybe I'm remembering that wrong, who knows?

Not that I'm trying to discourage someone who wants to get three rasps just because they want to have them, i see no problem with that. It's not a matter of need, though, nor will it make your work any more precise or finished than one rasp and some cheap files and sandpaper, or dowels and sandpaper.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The more I've been working on odd shapes lately, the more I feel like the path I want to pursue is edge tools - a double beveled (carving style) chisel and a single gouge have really opened my eyes again to how much more I enjoy cutting wood away over rasping or sanding.

Of course, then you end up finding a reason to justify every funny shaped gouge you see, and now you're into money again, and a whole new slope.

I'm with David - I've wrapped paper over all manner of objects, if it looks like it'll fit and it means I dont' have to move far!

[David Weaver]

Someone told me once (and I don't remember who) that a trade carver, back when there was such a thing being common, may have 400 gouges. The same person said something to me about a serious amateur woodworker having 100 gouges just as a matter of accumulation from different projects.

As bulky as a lot of the current gouges are, I can't imagine buying and preparing that many of them. I'm assuming most amateur woodworkers don't come close to that (actually, i'm assuming most amateur woodworkers avoid carving like the plague) and they are the only tool that I will almost never buy until I need them.

Guessing also that the old trade carvers from 150+ years ago made most of their own handles since a lot of the tools were tanged, and I've seen various catalogs offering handled and unhandled tools.

[Jack Curtis]

I prefer Addis and Takahashi carving chisels, the former available even these days for less than $20 each; so I pick them up on ebay whenever they show up, just last week got 9 of them for <$150 shipped, all in great shape. Every now and then a set of 10 Takahashi gets there for $200+/-.

So for curved surfaces, I tend to use chisels and spokeshaves, often finishing with a rasp, often the shinto.

However, there was Michael somebody who posted on Badger Pond photos of a rocking horse his brother made. This was exquisite, truly. Turns out it was all done with a single gouge, his brother was unemployed at the time and hadn't much money.

[Derek Cohen]

Just a comment on the replies to date.

As with all tools, one purchases what one needs ... although some purchase what they want. There is no "have to have these rasps" if you are making handles. I have been making saw and plane handles for yonks with straight rasps, files and sandpaper. Whether you can justify the expense of a couple (2 or 3) rasps for making a few handles is another matter. Obviously the more you make, the easier it is to justify the expense here. That aside, the tools are good, and what I present here is likely to be soon on offer by Liogier ... which provides us all with just another choice, a good thing ... unless you have no control when it comes to purchasing ww tools ... Oh Lord, whom I talking to! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

Gramercy did get their rasps back in stock and since I had one on order...although I was one of the ones asking Noel about such a rasp. Now that I have had the chance to use an Auriou, Gramercys and Iwasakis, I find myself using the Iwasakis the most. Hand made teeth seem to remove a little more wood sometimes, but they also seem to leave a less even, rougher surface, especially on curved surfaces. I am not sure the faster rasp saves me much time. The small 4" round surface Iwasakis seem to get into the curvy areas of handles and totes just about as well as the tapered hand made rasps do. The Japanese float/files certainly leave the smoothest finish and are kindest to ones pocket book. The Iwasakis seem to stand up to hard use too, although I do not have as much time using the other two on harder woods yet. So I ended up just adding a few more Iwasakis to my collection.

[Ed Griner]

Hi Derek, Nice post! My rasp collection consist of a Nicholson#49,#50.In comparison the rasps your evaluating seem a little short. I use mine primarily for shaping furniture legs. Again thanks for the interesting post. Ed

[Klaus Kretschmar]

On handle making, the rasping is a very important step to shape the handle correctly. I use the curved Gramercy rasp amongst other hand stitched rasps and some Iwasakis. The Gramercy and the Iwasakis I don't want to miss. I'm pretty convinced that the Liogier rasps are playing in the same league as Auriou rasps or as the curved Gramercy rasp. Yes, the Gramercy belongs to the exclusive circle of the best to my eye.

The rasping is only one step in the shaping process. The next one will be the sanding. I'm completely with David that there's only one way to do the sanding right. The sandpaper has to be supported by a dowel, a round pencil, a piece of scrap, even with the corc of a wine bottle... whatever fits. Only by sanding this way you will maintain the definition of the handle. Use a sandpaper just once without support and you will have messed up the handle - at least if you try to keep a high standard. A good handle should have a good definition of lines.

Klaus

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Klaus

One strategy I use when sanding is to cut up sanding belts into long, thin strips. These can be threaded through or held tightly over the area for sanding. Then pull it back-and-forth. Imagine that you are shining shoes.

The advantage of the belt is that it is stiff and holds its shape (as though it was supported underneath - ala the dowel), you can get greater movement (easier waste removal), and change belts to use higher grits while maintaining the same profile.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jack Curtis]

Pretty cool way to get some high quality free tools, way to go Derek, great process that helps everyone involved.

[Derek Cohen]

Sorry to disappoint you Jack. No free-bees here. I shall be payng for them like everyone else.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jack Curtis]

Sorry to disappoint you Jack. No free-bees here. I shall be payng for them like everyone else....

I think that calls for modification of process. :)

[Klaus Kretschmar]

Hi Klaus

One strategy I use when sanding is to cut up sanding belts into long, thin strips. These can be threaded through or held tightly over the area for sanding. Then pull it back-and-forth. Imagine that you are shining shoes.

The advantage of the belt is that it is stiff and holds its shape (as though it was supported underneath - ala the dowel), you can get greater movement (easier waste removal), and change belts to use higher grits while maintaining the same profile.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek,

that's pretty much the way, Pedder did it for a few years and recommended to do the sanding work. I've tried it and found it suitable on the more or less completely rounded parts of the handle (hand grip). As soon as the radiuses get small (lower ogee on closed handles), I had sanding marks from the belt edges that were not that easy to be removed. On parts where rounded areas meet sharp edges, it did not work for me since I wasn't able to control the belt that correctly, that the crispness of the edges could be maintained reliably. As tempting as the speedy way of sanding is by using belts, I cancelled it completely because it decreases the quality a bit - at least when I do it.

Regards
Klaus

[David Weaver]

Just a comment on the replies to date.

As with all tools, one purchases what one needs ... although some purchase what they want. There is no "have to have these rasps" if you are making handles. I have been making saw and plane handles for yonks with straight rasps, files and sandpaper. Whether you can justify the expense of a couple (2 or 3) rasps for making a few handles is another matter. Obviously the more you make, the easier it is to justify the expense here. That aside, the tools are good, and what I present here is likely to be soon on offer by Liogier ... which provides us all with just another choice, a good thing ... unless you have no control when it comes to purchasing ww tools ... Oh Lord, whom I talking to! :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Well, in defense of the spender, I think it's nice to have at least one sawmaker's rasp, or to at least bend one older half round coarse metal file to do the same. That is a time thing, though, and one can always sell the used rasp later if they feel that they will make a collection of user saws quickly and then discard.

I'm not good at the discard thing, so whatever I spend on something fairly uncommon, it's permanently spent.

[David Weaver]

Sorry to disappoint you Jack. No free-bees here. I shall be payng for them like everyone else.

Regards from Perth

Derek


That's too bad. I understand the importance of objectivity, but I certainly think the quality of the review was worth a trade for the tools!

[Mike Holbrook]

Highland Woodworking sells a sanding block with a neoprene bottom that I find molds well to most shapes and they work with standard sand paper sheets folded. Chris Black is making them now and he was explaining, at a saw sharpening class I was in, how much time it took him to figure out exactly what neoprene to use. Apparently there are countless formulations, thicknesses and densities of that material. The resulting sanding block is exceptional though. Then there are the foam sanding pads and Scotch Brite...I like the rolls of 3M Stick-it paper too. It has enough stick to adhere to just about anything but it turns loose fairly easy too. I'm sure it took some work to get that sticky surface just right. Armed with sufficient sanding options as Klaus says you can refine your surface to whatever level you want. Although lately I have been leaving some of my saw handles just a little tacky. Highland has quite a selection of sanding paper, blocks, pads....including all those above.