Wall cabinet construction question - 1/2" plywood back instead of nailers?

[scott vroom]

I'm tired of messing around with nailers on wall cabinets and am considering going with a 1/2" plywood back instead, just driving the screws through the plywood in lieu of the nailers. Anyone try this? I'm guessing that 1/2" plywood is sufficiently strong. I could go with 3/4" backs but that's added weight and cost that I'd like to avoid.

I've been making cabinets for several years and it seems that every new project brings different ideas and methods; I find myself spending lots of time rethinking how I build cabinets. It would be nice to settle on one method - my productivity would definately benefit :)

Thx

[Jamie Buxton]

I like putting the nailer on the outside of the cabinet -- on the top. It doesn't show, and the screws going through it don't either. If I happen to miss a stud with a screw, no problem, just drill another hole.

[Sam Murdoch]

I use 1/2" backs that are attached to 3/4" plywood box parts. The backs are cut to be the exact with and hight to flush with the bottom of the bottom and the top of the top. This is an excellent way to square up your cabinet and insure that the sides are straight. I attach the backs with 1-1/4" crown staples just to get the back on square and in place then I finish up with 1-1/4" screws. Glue is not effective and unneeded as my backs are typically prefin maple. I sometimes screw through the backs directly and sometimes use cabinet hangers depending on my mood and field conditions.

As I nearly always have finished sides in addition to the prefin boxes I can get away with simply flushing out the backs to the sides. When that system is not acceptable I rabbet the 3/4" sides and tops and bottoms 3/8" x the thickness of the back to receive the full back. Attaching the backs in this case requires great care so as not to blow your screws or staples through the finished insides, nonetheless I attach in the same manner.

[Richard McComas]

I use 3/4 backs, I only have to stock one thickness of plywood. The top and deck of the cabinet are cut the thickness of the back narrower than the sides/ends. I screw through the sides and the back. Applied end panels cover screws.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/rmccomas0043/wallcabinet.jpg

[Jeff Monson]

I use 1/2" backs set into a rabbet on 3/4" sides, 3/4" top and bottom, no nailer strip.

[Peter Quinn]

I use 1/2 inch backs just like Sam does above, flush or the case sides,matched on then screwed. It is definetly strong enough to half any cabinets up, maybe stronger than 1/4 inch backs with a nailer IMO.

[Jeff Duncan]

I use both 1/2" or 3/4" backs as I never thought making an extra part(s) was cost effective. FWIW if your buying your plywood wholesale 1/2" is not usually much cheaper than 3/4"....maybe a couple dollars? And that money is easily recouped by using the leftover pieces of 3/4" for other cabinet parts. I've thrown away more 1/2" ply than I care to think about as it was useless for anything else I manufacture.

good luck,
JeffD

[Steve Griffin]

1/4" backs for me.

-keeps cabinets lighter
-less expensive--15-30 bucks a sheet depending on material.
-1/2" x 4" CDX nailers are cheap and fast to apply.
-shimming is easier in many cases. Especially if there is a big bulge in the wall right in the middle of the cabinet.

[Todd Burch]

I think I'm going to go Jamie's route for my dad's kitchen upper cabinets. I've done that before and there's no chance of spoiling the interior of the cabinet that way. Therefore, 1/4" backs with nailers at the top and bottom, exterior to the cabinet. Sold.

[Zach Callum]

Nailers at the top is ok, if you can easily access the top of the cabinet during instal.

[Mark W Pugh]

I use 3/4 backs, I only have to stock one thickness of plywood. The top and deck of the cabinet are cut the thickness of the back narrower than the sides/ends. I screw through the sides and the back. Applied end panels cover screws.

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o159/rmccomas0043/wallcabinet.jpg

Is the rabbit joints really necessary? Why not just butt joint it to the back?? Just starting my quest to build cabinets and trying to figure out how I will do it. Thanks!!

[Paul Incognito]

I've been using 1/2" for cabinet backs for a while now. I recess my backs about 1/8" and only rabbet the sides.
While jeff and Steve both bring up excellent points, 3/4" backs just seem like overkill to me and I wouldn't want to deal with the extra weight when hanging wall cabs. I haven't run into a problem with a bulging wall yet that I couldn't work around.
Paul

[Todd Burch]

I haven't run into a problem with a bulging wall yet that I couldn't work around.
Paul

Amen brother.

[joe milana]

I've been using 1/2" for cabinet backs for a while now. I recess my backs about 1/8" and only rabbet the sides.
While jeff and Steve both bring up excellent points, 3/4" backs just seem like overkill to me and I wouldn't want to deal with the extra weight when hanging wall cabs. I haven't run into a problem with a bulging wall yet that I couldn't work around.
Paul

An 1/8" recess has always worked best for me too. Just be gentle driving the cabinet screws as to not peel the back off. Oh, and a slight back bevel on the face frames makes for a nice tight alignment as well.

[scott vroom]

1/4" backs for me.

-keeps cabinets lighter
-less expensive--15-30 bucks a sheet depending on material.
-1/2" x 4" CDX nailers are cheap and fast to apply.
-shimming is easier in many cases. Especially if there is a big bulge in the wall right in the middle of the cabinet.

Steve, how do you attach the 1/4" and the nailers?

[Mike Goetzke]

I recently did one kitchen so I'm an expert now:D. I used 3/4" backs and cut a wide dado to accept a cleat (look to the upper right) that I leveled and secured to the wall. Made hanging the uppers a breeze:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Kitchen/Cabinets/Hanging/IMG_1589.jpg




then I used these:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/mbg/Projects/Kitchen/Cabinets/Hanging/IMG_3484.jpg

(I know, I think I could park a Volkswagon on top of the cabinets and not worry about them coming down)


Mike

[scott vroom]

Mike, very novel approach.

[Mike Goetzke]

Mike, very novel approach.

Like to take the credit but the idea came from a SMC user that turned me on to CabinetPlanner software. At first I was worried about hanging heavy the uppers (especially that corner cabinet has 3/4" hardwood sides), but, my son or even wife helped me raise the cabinet in place and with slight pressure against the wall it would stay in place. Plus, even though I built the cabinets in phases I took good notes where to cut the dados and posted them on the wall. That and my Wixey DRO on the TS made the cuts very repeatable. I aslo used a laser to hang the cleats. I used a level when hanging the cabinets and even though I left wiggle room in the dados I just let gravity hang the cabinets.


Mike


Mike

[Sam Murdoch]

Good solution - good results and yes those 1/4" will hold lots and lots of volkswagons, er, I mean dishes. :)

[Steve Griffin]

There sure are sure a lot of ways to build cabinets. Since someone asked in a PM, here's a quick plan view sketch showing the most common way I do them.

[Larry Edgerton]

There are some steel "French cleat" solutions available that I have not tried but look viable. I most often use wood French cleats, but have been going to try the steel ones next job that I need to cut costs.

Larry

[scott vroom]

In a multi-cabinet wall run, how does one place the French cleats on the wall and cab backs so that the bottoms of the faceframes align perfectly across the run?

[Steve Griffin]

In a multi-cabinet wall run, how does one place the French cleats on the wall and cab backs so that the bottoms of the faceframes align perfectly across the run?

That's the problem--you loose precise control over height and depth. Not a problem sometimes depending on style. For example in Mikes photo above, I would have the face frames joining together at the angled edge of the angled cabinet. Tolerance would be about 1/32" up/down and in/out. Got to shim, or build one heck of single big cabinet.

[scott vroom]

How do you shim a French cleat cabinet? Once the cleats are set, gravity takes over....the cab is set at a fixed height, no adjustments can be made without defeating the function of the cleat. Seems to me French cleats work best on single cabinets and not on multi-cab runs.

[Jerome Hanby]

You can shim at the back of the bottom to get the cabinet "level", but you are right, you are pretty much stuck with height and space from the wall (at least at the top).

[scott vroom]

Yesterday I tried a new (for me) approach on wall cab construction. I used the Sommerfeld tongue and groove set to assemble sides/top/bottom and attach box to FF. For the back, I dadoed a 1/4" groove recessed 1/2" in from the back edges of the bottom and sides, and cut 3/4" off the back edge of the top. This allowed me to assemble the entire cab in one operation, and then slip the 1/4" back into the dadoed slot. I finished by adding 1/2" x 4" nailers. This method was quick and easy and avoids the added cost and weight of a 1/2" or 3/4" solid back. I often work alone on installation and weight is a very big deal to me.

[Sam Murdoch]

There are some steel "French cleat" solutions available that I have not tried but look viable. I most often use wood French cleats, but have been going to try the steel ones next job that I need to cut costs.

Larry

These are a good product Larry http://zbarhanger.com/lazbha5into7.html?gclid=CKyLx_fn2q4CFUPc4Aod_yh7ZQ There are others like those from Outwater Hardware that are available in long lengths or (I think) 3" pieces with or without holes. As I rarely hang one cabinet at a time but rather gang up an elevations worth of uppers (or as many as is practical for moving and lifting) I can use a laser to set the wall bracket and then measure a consistent distant from the tops of my ganged up cabinets to establish the location of the cabinet bracket. No need to tweak if I take care to get my measurements exact.

As for walls out of flat problems - such wall conditions create a problem regardless of which system you use to build your cabinet backs or attach the cabinets to the wall. Sometimes you have no option but to create a flat wall with shimmed out cleats. Tedious but effective. Other times I have gotten away with adding short pieces of hangers usually on the high spots. I make certain that the hangers are all set to be flat one to the other and that they will catch my cabinet pieces. Of course these cabinets will need returns that are scribed to the wall. I add scribe to all my finished ends in any case so that is not a deal breaker for me.

[frank shic]

i use 1/4" backs with cabinet hangers like the ones that blum manufactures and install on a steel rail that you have to mount separately.

[Steve Griffin]

Here's an excellent thread on hanging methods, which has many ideas to choose from:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?142417-Hanging-methods-for-upper-cabinets