New chisels on the market?

[Aaron Kline]

I came across these surfing today. They don't look bad, but never heard of em before. Anyone here use em?
http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/product_info.php?products_id=2854&osCsid=020ad6c1ede60d979d6294f839d5f99b

http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/product_info.php?products_id=2794&osCsid=020ad6c1ede60d979d6294f839d5f99b

[Roy Wall]

That's certainly a nice assortment of sizes..... I like the handle shape too-- they look somwhat "thickish".....

[Maurice Ungaro]

Those mortise chisels look substantial. I'm partial to Swedish steel.

Maurice

[John Keeling]

These are new from the forges of Ray Iles...

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-MORT.XX&Category_Code=TBMC

Substantial or what?

These I really, really like. Unfortunately I have a "set" of pig stickers, and who needs 2 sets(?), with names such as Matthieson and Ibbotson stamped on them.

[Tom Saurer]

They look good and are a good price. My only concern is if they truly measure the fractional size listed. I know that some chisels are metric and then listed as the closest fractional unit. To much of a difference, but it might be a problem in some instances.

[Derek Cohen]

"My only concern is if they truly measure the fractional size listed"

I don't understand this issue. What difference does it make 1mm (or 1/16") either way. Surely you chop your mortice before cutting the tenon, not the other way around. That is, you fit the tenon to the mortice, whatever its size.

The width of the mortice is sized as an approximation using the 1/3 rule. It is an approximation, not a law. A little more or less is not going to make any difference.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joel Moskowitz]

You guys are good we just put up the mortise chisels last night.

Tom I don't know which set of chisels you are reffering too but I can answer your question.
Historically English Mortise chisels were available in 1/16" from 1/8" - 1". That being said have never seen one bigger than 3/4" and those are rare. Housewrights would have been the customer for the really large sizes anyway and after 1840 or so there would be much less demand for the big sizes.

for regular woodworking 1/4-1/2 is more than fine. We also will stock the 3/16" with is a nice to have for smaller work. If there is a demand we will add the 1/8", 9/16" and 5/8".

However the toolmakers never actually measured their chisel they would take a predetermined steel black and forge it to a nominal size. NONE of the historic tools I have are actually on the money. It makes no difference anyway because you size everything to the actual width of the chisel.

In Ray's case we are trying real hard to make proper imperial sizes. However we can't get imperial thicknessed steel anymore and in any case we would need to grind it for the finished texture (The chisels are slight trapazoids anyway so only the back is sized) so we are going as close to actual Inch size as possible but some sizes will be not on the money. Typcially with Continenetal European makers who have been metric for 200 years the inch sizes are nominal.

[James Carmichael]

That is a good price for a set of 3 on the Swedes, and I like the looks of the handles. If Joel is selling them, they must be good quality.

The pigstickers, though, REALLY look tempting! I may have to woo SWMBO for a father's-day gift.

As for the Imperial vs Metric, I'm sure the Swedes are true metric. Personally, I prefer Imperial dimensions. Though I certainly chop the mortise first, centering it is much easier if the chisel is made to the same measurement system as the lumber (and everything else in my shop). That way I don't have to subtract 10mm from 3/4 and divide the difference.

[Joel Moskowitz]

James we are talking two sets of tools byt different makers at completely different price points.
What we are introducing are true English Mortise chisels. (made appropraitely in England.)
they have not been available for about 50 years.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=MS-MORT.XX

joel

[Tom Saurer]

Joel,

Thanks for the education. I do chop the mortise and then fit the tenon. I have heard of people having issues before in the past, but I can't cite them directly nor remember exactly what they were. I agree that a vast majority of people wouldn't care, I know that I don't.

[James Carmichael]

Thank you Joel. It probably didn't show in my reply, but I did understand they are two different items and was commenting on both.

The Isles chisels are very tempting.

As for the Imperial v Metric, 3/8 vs 10mm is a difference of .019". I couldn't care less, tennons are just as easy to cut to either size, but for me, at least, when working with stock that has been dimensioned imperially, it is easier to get the mortising gauge set to the board's center.

[Derek Cohen]

James

The answer is to make a centering gauge (a short length of timber with two dowels on either side of a centred nail - you know the one). Then mark the centre of the board and measure the outer mortise points from here. I then use a steel point divider - just flip it (5mm for a 10mm mortise) on either side of the line.

If you are cutting the mortise off centre, there is no issue.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joel Moskowitz]

there is a much faster way. set the width of the mortice.
roughly guess the position on the board. Make two pinpricks - flip the mortice gauge around. if the pin-pricks match up you are centered. If not adjust the fence slightly. repeat test. usually you get it right in one or two adjustments and it's a lot faster than using another gauge to find center.

[Wendell Wilkerson]

It seems to me that if you're cutting your M&T by hand, why do you need to center the mortice at all. Here's the method I would propose. First I would bet that most people can place a mortice layout within a 1/16 " of center just by eyeball. Is being off by a 1/16" going to hurt? If it does, my contention would that you have a bigger problem with the design. Once the mortice is layed out, place the board which will be tenoned on top of the morticed piece so that tenon stock is in its desired position, e.g if the front faces of the two peices of stock are suppose to be flush, place the tenon board flush to the mortice baord when you're marking the tenon. Now mark the location of tenon from the location of the mortice. Now the tenon may not be centered on the end of the tenon stock, but who cares? The M&T will still be strong if it is cut well. By laying out the tenon relative to the mortice, you avoid errors caused by laying out the parts seperately.

Wendell

[Tom Saurer]

I recently did over a 100 mortises by hand. I close enough to the center that I couldn't tell if it was off or not. Because I was making slats I made sure that the top and bottem mortises were lined up. I held the marking guage fence against each pieces "show" side.

[Pam Niedermayer]

there is a much faster way. set the width of the mortice.
roughly guess the position on the board. Make two pinpricks - flip the mortice gauge around. if the pin-pricks match up you are centered. If not adjust the fence slightly. repeat test. usually you get it right in one or two adjustments and it's a lot faster than using another gauge to find center.

This is almost what I do (as learned from Kingshott), make the second pinpricks if they're not lined up, then choose a setting inbetween the two sets.

Pam