Pocket Screws or Domino's for Face Frames

[Jim German]

I'm working on some cabinets for my office (see this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?179480-Office-Cabinets)) and have gotten to the face frame stage. I was wondering if people liked to use pocket screws or dominos both for putting the frame together, and for attaching it to the cases. I've used pocket screws in the past, but had some issues with splitting and the faces not being perfectly even. Using domino's seems a bit trickery, but they would be hidden and should be easier to align.

[Joe Cowan]

I have both tools, and would use pocket screws, as screws are faster and you do not have to wait for the glue to dry to move on to the next stage.

[Craig Michael]

There are some who use both. The domino works to make sure the alignment is perfect and the pocket screws add to the strength and clamp the pieces together for the glue to set up. I would personally opt for that method and avoid all the necessary clamping of using only domino's and the delay. Domino's have a purpose, as do pocket screws. i use pocket screws anytime the joint is hidden so I can keep moving on with the project.

[trevor adair]

For me it depends on the situation.. I use poket screws most of the time for speed and ease.. Recently I have made several frames with the Kreg Bead detail, I have to use the domino because the tips of the screw sometimes show in the groove of the bead. For any fine work I go Domino, once you get used to it they go almost as fast as pocket screws and alignment is much better.

[Prashun Patel]

For faceframes, pocket screws are the fastest - when used correctly. You need a good face clamp and the proper screws. If you have both, then the joint will align 'perfectly' (requiring only minor if any sanding).

For attaching the faceframe to the carcass, domino is good for the end cases if the end will remain visible. They also help with alignment. However, if yr faceframes are designed with a reveal, and some slop is permissible, then biscuits might even be a better choice than the ultra-precise domino.

Oh yeah, with pocket screws, glue is optional.

[frank shic]

For faceframes, pocket screws are the fastest - when used correctly. You need a good face clamp and the proper screws. If you have both, then the joint will align 'perfectly' (requiring only minor if any sanding).

For attaching the faceframe to the carcass, domino is good for the end cases if the end will remain visible. They also help with alignment. However, if yr faceframes are designed with a reveal, and some slop is permissible, then biscuits might even be a better choice than the ultra-precise domino.

Oh yeah, with pocket screws, glue is optional.

i've never used glue with pocket screws :)

[Cary Falk]

I don't have a Domino but I can't believe anything could be faster then pocket hole screws. There is no waiting for glue to dry. Fo attaching them to the carcas I use the hated biscuit jointer.:D

[Prashun Patel]

I never do either. I've read that some people like to do it. However for most apps, it's edge to end grain, so what good's glue gonna do anyway?

[mreza Salav]

I never do either. I've read that some people like to do it. However for most apps, it's edge to end grain, so what good's glue gonna do anyway?

Not to hijack this thread and turn it into another debate about strength of the joints but you'd be surprised by how much strength a simple butt joint will have.
I always use glue, especially for attaching perpendicular face-frame pieces as I don't think a single screw has much holding power there.

[Prashun Patel]

Perhaps in a normal application, but on a faceframe, will that joint get a lot of stress? especially when each component is then screwed/nailed/glued to the carcass? I'm not asking that rhetorically; if you do it differently, I'm not above altering my method.

Oh yeah, glue in this application just means I have to sand a little more if I get some squeezeout.

[Sam Murdoch]

Have to get in on this discussion :D. All of my face frames are assembled with pocket screws BUT attached to the cabinetry with biscuits.

Pocket screws in my experience are great to hold pieces together end grain to long grain and other jointery. They are the perfect tool for building face frames, understanding that unless properly and TIGHTLY clamped as you drive the screws you can be assured that many of the joints will slip out of alignment :eek:.

As for attaching the assembled face frames to the cabinets I have both a Festool Domino and a Lamello Biscuit Jointer. When I first started using the Domino I figured that the biscuits were now obsolete. WRONG! Biscuits are still (in my not so humble opinion) the best tool for attaching the face frame. Dominos are way too exacting. There alignment is too perfect and causes worlds of grief when trying to clamp down a face frame. The biscuits on the other hand allow for a slight variation in the thickness of the plywood and they allow you some up and down and in and out play that is very forgiving when you are gluing your ff to the cabinet. Leave your cabinet backs off. Lay your cabs down face up on some T shaped plywood risers that allow the clamps to clear the floor. Make your biscuit slots in the perimeter and drawer stretchers of the cabs and face frames, add the glue, add the biscuits, tap the frame on and clamp. Finally take a damp rag and reach in to clean the glue squeeze out. By the time your next cabinet is ready for biscuits and glue you can take the clamps off the first set up and go again.

That's how I do it :)

Sam

[Mike Goetzke]

I recently built a bunch of ff's for our kitchen cabinets. I have a Domino and Kreg and thought about the same thing and ended up using pocket screws. In the past I sometimes had problems with faces slightly offsetting but on this job I used the face clamp and also the clamp that has a pin on one side that goes inside one of the pocket holes (this clamp is for right angle clamping but you will find you can put the pin in a pocket hole and the round end on the edge of the other board and it works great). This way you have clamping force in two directions. Worked out great. I did try dominos and pocket screws on a sample and found the pocket screws wanted to go into the domino mortise.


clamp

(http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=21461&site=ROCKLER)
Mike

[Jeff Monson]

I use my domino for applications where a loose tenon is required, I dont feel a face frame is one of them. I prefer the speed of pocket screws for face frames. With a face frame properly attached to a well built cabinet, I just dont see that much stress on a face frame connection. Just my .02

[Jim Andrew]

When using pocket screws on face frames, have had some trouble with cracks. On some kinds of wood. Found that taking a drill bit and pre drilling avoids the cracking. And also like the biscuits to attach frames to the box. A shim works to handle an overhang of the faceframe to the box.

[Mike Goetzke]

When using pocket screws on face frames, have had some trouble with cracks. On some kinds of wood. Found that taking a drill bit and pre drilling avoids the cracking. And also like the biscuits to attach frames to the box. A shim works to handle an overhang of the faceframe to the box.

I used the hi-lo screws and had good luck preventing cracking.

Mike

[Craig Michael]

Perhaps in a normal application, but on a faceframe, will that joint get a lot of stress? especially when each component is then screwed/nailed/glued to the carcass? I'm not asking that rhetorically; if you do it differently, I'm not above altering my method.

Oh yeah, glue in this application just means I have to sand a little more if I get some squeezeout.

As Mreza said, you would be amazed how much strength glue will add. When you have some scraps around, do a few test pieces. I found out how strong by accident. I made a face frame, pocket screwed and glued with titebond 2. 10 minutes later I realized I forgot to subtract an inch so I tried to take it apart, make the extra cut then put it back together. After only that 10 minutes, minus the pocket hole screws, the joint would not budge. I would have broken the wood to get the joint apart. I could not believe it was that strong and after only 10 minutes.

[Jim German]

Sounds like pocket screws are the pretty clear consensus for putting together a face frame, and biscuits are favored for attaching it to the case.

Unfortunately I don't have a biscuit jointer, so that option is out. I think I would also like to attach the face frame to the cases, with the cases already hung on the wall. This way I would be able to have one face frame for the whole set of 4 cabinets as opposed to individual face frames that are butted together. I think my strategy will be to use a combination of pocket screws, and dominos. The dominos in places where I can't hide the pockets, and the screws to help clamp the face frame to the case.

[Steve Griffin]

Oh yeah, with pocket screws, glue is optional.

Glue is not optional in my shop. It adds a great deal of strength and helps seal the joint from water intrusion which, in a kitchen, can actually happen. It helps lock the joint from seasonal wood movement and twisting.

It only takes a second to apply a bead and is cheap. I also would need to use more pocket screws without glue, especially on high impact areas like the bottom fixed shelf of a cabinet. So using glue can save time too.

[frank shic]

another reason i don't apply glue is that if i mess up the calculations, i can easily take it back apart and try again!

[Sam Murdoch]

Sounds like pocket screws are the pretty clear consensus for putting together a face frame, and biscuits are favored for attaching it to the case.

Unfortunately I don't have a biscuit jointer, so that option is out. I think I would also like to attach the face frame to the cases, with the cases already hung on the wall. This way I would be able to have one face frame for the whole set of 4 cabinets as opposed to individual face frames that are butted together. I think my strategy will be to use a combination of pocket screws, and dominos. The dominos in places where I can't hide the pockets, and the screws to help clamp the face frame to the case.

Just a bit more info if you care - I typically build my cabinets as individual purpose boxes and then gang them up together with one face frame assembly to connect all the pieces of each elevation (as much as this is practical, and I have built some huge gangs of cabinetry). All the face frames are attached to the cabinets in the shop with the exception of loose scribe verts as needed to fit between two walls. Otherwise my scribe verts are also fully integrated and trimmed in the field. For uppers I can get away with ganging up 3 or 4 cabs including a corner because I use a lift for doing the install.

All this to say, that if you can gang your cabinets together in the shop, even if just temporarily with pipe clamps, you can do just what I suggested in my first post as regards fitting the face frame to the cabinetry. Using dominos is certainly possible, just less forgiving, but if you use elongated holes that will help keep the frustration to a minimum while still giving you perfect alignment. You will be very happy not working off a ladder in your kitchen trying to bore the domino slots. If you can - I highly recommend that you gang up your cabinets and attach your face frames in the shop. You'll need help doing the install with the heavy cabinets but you will end up with a much better job. Leave doors off and shelves set aside until the very end. And yes, do glue your joints with pocket screws. Swinging doors take their toll on the joints of even the best attached face frames.

Just a thought :)

Sam

[David Hostetler]

I haven't done many, but on the few I have done, I have used biscuits to assemble the face frames, and pocket screws / glue to attach the frames to the carcass.

[Phil Thien]

another reason i don't apply glue is that if i mess up the calculations, i can easily take it back apart and try again!

I always use glue.

I have tested with and without glue. With glue is a lot stronger. And what I've noticed on long-term no-glue PH joints is that the wood shrinks during winter just enough for the joints to loosen up a bit and when summer returns, the joints may not be perfectly flush any longer.

[frank shic]

that's especially true on wider panels that you join together. i haven't noticed this as much in face frames.