Equipment Dilemma

[Braden Todd]

So I am stuck in a decision to add a second laser (looking at an Epilog 36 EXT 75 Watt) or to add a cnc router to my shop. I don't have a lot of cash to throw at the cnc, around the 15k price range so this seems to push me to the Shopbot line and if I go used (found the shopbot forum with used listings) I can jump up the line a little for a better Shopbot. Other issue is that my shop only has single phase for power and most higher end cnc's seem to run on 3 phase.

As some background on where I am at, I currently outsource woodworking for my laser engraving because I do not have the proper tools to make the blanks in house. I would estimate that I will spend up to 30k for wood blanks this year, and this is only my second year to have a laser to build the business on. I guess why I am stuck is because I am unsure if I should buy the laser and gain 53 days on current orders with the added speed, or buy a cnc (learn how to run it as well as the software) and create my own blanks and possibly expand to offering wood items to others as well.

Does anyone have any advice on running a laser shop with a cnc and the added benefits? Also I would love any and all advice on cnc set ups, and how well they work for doing production runs of pieces as well as what extras I would need to compliment the cnc. I realize I am leaning a little heavy on the cnc aspect but I thought I would post this all here since I am torn between the cnc and a laser.

I would love to hear all of your thoughts and advice on this.

Thank you all in advance!!!

[jason harris]

Thats a hard one. I would not be without a router but I have specific uses for it. It can also cut things like acrylic very cleanly that various lasers will have problems with. A mister on the router can help this a lot as well as the correct tooling.

You would have seen talk about imported lasers well there are also very good CNC machines to be imported. I am currently looking at replacing a cnc router with a chinese 1325. Thats a working vacuum bed of 2500x 1300mm a bit over 8x4". You could get a really nice one well under your budget.

This for example has a number of happy owners http://quickcnc.diytrade.com/sdp/913707/4/pd-4615711/6441090-0/Woodworking_machinery.html

I have been doing a bit of traveling to check them out and I am happy enough to buy, as are others who already have.

There are two parts on a larger cnc that will require 3 phase. A larger spindle and a larger vacuum pump. If you dont need a vacuum table then there is no bother there but the largest spindle you can get is 2.2kw, maybe 3kw before you will need 3 phase.

The larger the spindle the larger the cuts and faster you can do your work. A smaller spindle may be ok depending on what you are doing.

One thing to be aware of. Dust. The dust is harder to deal with than extracting smoke from the laser. The watercooled spindles are dead quiet but they make some noise when cutting, then you add the dusty and a vacuum pump and you can make some noise. More noise than your laser will ever make.

I only point that out because if you only have single phase you may be living in a residential area that doesnt even know you operate a laser. They will find out you are operating a router soon enough though :)

[Braden Todd]

Hi Jason,

From your experience, where does a vaccuum table help the most? Mostly I want to use the cnc to cut wood to make plaques, awards, and other various items to laser into, hopefully in runs with large quantities. Maybe someday I could see myself toying with 3d wooden signs but for the most part I don't see any major thickness of wood cutting happening, hopefully that will help with not having 3 phase available and using the smaller router/spindle.

As far as noise is concerned, I am in a commercial shop setting but it isn't set up with the power I now need. I put everyone to the test last year by running a 14" stone saw outside all summer. I also have a sandblast set up that creates a lot of noise and dust so I am somewhat prepared for that, I even have 2 filtration units to save my lungs from anything bad left in the air. To help with the dust from a cnc I would definitely invest in a large dust collector for it.

Thanks for the input!

[Rodne Gold]

A CnC router does not make a total woodworking machine. The addition of a woodwork shop for laser blanks will require a lot more equipment , least of all a spray booth , thicknesser/planar , sanding stations , dust extraction , will require space and will require extra staff and or/time. NOT a great idea , rather contract out for this and add your profit. I would rather add something like a Roland print and cut machine thats capable of metallic printing - the BN20 or so , or an extra laser , however I would not spend $15k on the 2nd laser ..perhaps something 2nd hand or chinese for the 2nd backup machine? You can get a decent 1200 x 900 80-100w Laser AND a big 3kw 1200 x1800 CnC machine with all the spares and accesories you can possibly want for $10k or so....

[jason harris]

The vacuum table helps most with large sheets. I am used to clamping down my workpieces not using a vacuum so this will be new for me as well.

You may find that the pieces you cut out are too small to be effectively held after they have been cut and would still need some way to secure them better.

Rodne is correct that a router will not usually take a piece from the timber through to completion. It all depends on what you are doing so he is right that you need to factor that in to account for your particular circumstances.

I am in a slightly different background from a lot of you guys and my applications are different. A lot of what I do can be done on the cnc's from beginning to finish but I often dont need to dimension timber and then finish it by paint, stain etc.

[Braden Todd]

I forgot to mention that in addition to the cnc I was also looking at a dual drum sander (JET model 22-44 PRO-3), rather large band saw(grizzly g0566b) , table saw, to be assesed dust collection unit/units, and setting up a functional spray booth.

If possible I will try to buy some of the items used to save the extra $$. I also have another set of workers that can come in to help run the machines. Looking at the set up costs it is high, but if I can create my own blanks and save that money from leaving my shop while paying my guys to run the pieces I would rather that.

Now if I could add the laser and the woodworking equipment, it'd be like Christmas every day I went to work!

[Rodne Gold]

Im a relatively big operation , 10 000 sq ft , 20 staff. I looked into establishing a full woodworking station for my plaques , bases etc. I also purchase about $30-50k a year for "woodwork"
It really doesn't work out cost effectively when you look at the the 2-3 staff members , 1000+ sq ft space , dust , machinery etc. We worked out that decent machinery and a spray booth is in the $10-20k mark - even 2nd hand. Premises were at least $500-1200 a month and at the lowest level , 1 mans salary would be $1k a month. Running costs of the operation would be well in excess of $5000 a month or $60k a year
We would have maybe broke even re our outsourcing , with the only added advantage of "in house" control and shorter design to finished product cycles , but many other "disadvantages". It's much easier to buy in , load your margin on the stock and make the production thereof someone else's headache. I decided to devote the space and resources (much less $'s) to setting up a mould/casting operation and to have more lasers as these generate far better returns.

[Keith Outten]

My experience is different from most, when I decided to add a CNC Router to my shop it was necessary for me to be able to provide my own sign blanks. It was the best decision I even made and it promoted my business to a whole new level, not to mention the changes to my profit margins. Almost instantly I stopped laser engraving for customers, instead I have only used my laser engraver for the signs I produce in my shop.

I have a complete woodworking facility however I rarely use my woodworking machines these days other than the sanders. The majority of my work now is making ADA door signs and the other types of signs for large commercial buildings and I use Dupont Corian for sign blanks almost exclusively.

Concerning CNC Routers I would never purchase a CNC machine that I couldn't get post processors for either VCarve Pro or Aspire. The software is just as important as the hardware when it comes to CNC Routers, personally I have found the Vectric software to be very easy to use which is more important to me than other issues.

My first CNC router was a ShopBot PRT Alpha with a 48" by 96" table. It was a fantastic machine for my shop. Last year I purchased a CAMaster Stinger II with a smaller table and a CNC Lathe attached. Downsizing the table was primarily due to the fact that I cut my Corian sheets into three 48" by 36" pieces which fits my Stinger perfectly and they are easier to handle at my age.

Understand I am not contradicting Rodney's point of view, his products are different from mine so we approach things differently. I own a one man sign shop as opposed to Rodney's much larger operation. You are probably the only one who can answer your question Braden because you have to factor in the types of projects you produce into the equation.

So, the principle machines in my sign shop are a CAMaster Stinger and a Trotec Laser Engraver. These two machines compliment each other better than any I have ever seen for the type of work I produce. The only other machines I use frequently are my edge and spindle sanders.

Only ten to fifteen percent of my business involves the traditional woodworking and metal working machines I own.
.

[Doug Griffith]

(learn how to run it as well as the software)

This is a VERY large variable in my opinion. So is the dust, noise, 3-phase, and required ancillary equipment. A CNC is a completely different animal than a laser and requires a completely different kind of experience and working environment.

[Scott Shepherd]

In my experience, in my market, I have found a huge difference in the two. The price of the average laser job is relatively small, per part. However, it's nothing to get a single job on a router that will come close to paying for it. We are finishing up a $16,000 job on our router now. One single job, about a weeks work total. You will see many things like this when you get into routing. The jobs are much larger in dollars per piece and the machine can easily pay for itself very quickly.

We'd love to have a high end router, but for now, the used shopbot we bought is doing just fine.

My experience may be far different than others, they are just my experiences.

[Ross Moshinsky]

My suggestion would be this: http://www.cncrouterparts.com/crp4848-4-x-4-machine-kit-p-137.html?cPath=29

and a 80W Chinese machine to compliment it.

Should come in at under $10,000. For an extra $5,000 you can jump to a 4x8 machine with a vacuum table. All of this would be comparable to what you get with a ShopBot. This isn't to discourage you from buying a ShopBot. If you add in the work you're going to need to do to get the ShopBot up and running vs a CNCRouterParts CNC machine, you'll see why ShopBot charges the extra money. I'd say you're looking at about 5-6 days to get a DIY CNC up and running.

[jason harris]

I just had a look at shopbot, it's not something available in this part of the world. You are looking at $18K + to get in to one that will handle a full sheet.

The cost doesnt seem unreasonable from what I see machines going for over here but if you are in to the importing from china thing then something like this will cost a whole lot less landed at your door and more rigid by the looks of it.

This is cutting through 1" mdf in this example at a speed you want for doing production work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJLDexWFfsM&feature=youtu.be

I have seen these machines in person and the build looks good, I am looking at another manufacturer who seems to have a good repuatation and exported a number of machines to happy owners.