Dovetails.

[Greg Cuetara]

I asked a while back about a good dovetail jig and how to connect drawers. Mike Henderson suggested that I cut them by hand. Well I have finally gotten to the point that everything is ready and I cut my first half-blind tonight.

I don't have a super workbench so I have had to make up my own little dovetail setup. Seemed to work ok for the first one tonight.

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Here is a picture of my first half-blind cut by hand.

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I am using hickory for the front, back and sides. I figure that I am just as well to start off with working on the back sides which won't be visible. It took me about 1.5 hours to do this first one and I figure that it will get a bit quicker, well hopefully it will, and also I can make them tighter the further along I get. As I have heard before the 2nd is better than the 1st and the 4th is better than the 2nd.

Anywho it is enjoyable to work with the hand tools but much different than working with motors all the time.

Greg

[Bruce Page]

Greg, I went through the DT learning curve a couple of years ago. You are off to a good start!

[Sam Murdoch]

Practice & practice before too long it will be a second nature as a Guinness after a perfect down hill run.:D
You could start on a shorter drawer box :), but you are getting it!

[Russell Sansom]

Greg,
1) Normally, the back isn't blind DT'd, though I understand you are wisely using it for practice.
2) It's a lot easier to get a gap-free fit if the sides are a more "compressible" wood. A bit of an inside secret. Poplar and Mahogany are two common choices.
3) Hickory is a bear to chop and to mark ( the open grain breaks pencil points and can wreck a marking knife tip ).
4) The proportions of your tails and pins look great.
5) I admire your courage in taking this on. It will sort itself out after a half dozen, so this is more in the spirit of tough love than a negative comment...just offering some firm direction: Those gaps need to be much smaller---even though it's very challenging to get a perfect no-gap joint with hickory on hickory, as I said above. Is it possible you've sawed the pins on the wrong side of the line?
6) Finally, If this is your first DT, I'd encourage you to do a couple plain-old through dovetails. Take the pressure off yourself and make 3 or four practice joints that you throw away when you're done. After that you'll be better prepared to create a finished piece; you'll already have dispensed with most of the beginner's DT mistakes.

[frank shic]

greg, nice job especially considering half-blind dovetails are a lot harder! you are in a for a treat if you do the regular through dovetails as russell mentioned AND if you use pine that's planed to 1/2". a lot of people cheat on half blinds by gluing another piece of wood on top of the drawer front. don't give up trying because you'll soon be chuckling silently whenever you see people whining about how they can't vary the spacing on the router driven router jigs ;)

[Van Huskey]

You jumped in the deep end and did a great job for a first try (or even a 5 or 6th try)!

[Greg Cuetara]

Russell I agree with just about all your points. I was going to do the back with a full dovetail but decided it was worth the practice and wouldn't hurt anything. Again agree that if the sides were a soft wood it might be a little easier but the hickory is what I got for a good deal and already have that milled down to size. I will second that hickory is a bear to work with and very difficult to chop. Thank you about the proportions. I may need to make an adjustment so that it is easier to cut because i couldn't fit my chisel into one of the boards becasue the tails were so small. I do agree that the gaps need to tighten up and you are probably right that i cut on the wrong side of the line but it is a learning curve and hopefully i will get better by the time i do the front of the drawers.

Thanks for all the other comments. i'll get back at it tonight and try again.

BTW I do see the draw to hand tools now more than before. it is very relaxing to just work the wood by hand.

Greg

[frank shic]

if you do get into hand tools, i would caution you against doing mortise and tenons by hand as i've found that they are much trickier even though you'd think they'd be simpler than dovetails. don't go crazy buying hand planes especially the LN/LV brands and please don't give up using an automated jointer/planer unless you have a lot of time on your hands ;)

[Greg Cuetara]

Frank, Thanks for the words of advice. Don't think I will take it that far as I do enjoy using the power tools just that the hand tools are a nice distraction right now.

[frank shic]

whenever i'm dovetailing by hand i just think how pleasant it is not to have to wear those annoying ear muffs that otherwise accompany every single machining process... i might go back to trying to raise panels by hand once i get my bench vise installed again. the reason for my warning is that almost every woodworker goes through a power tool/hand tool acquisition phase and i'd like to spare you of all the reselling i had to do once my fascination in hand tools started waning!

[Don Jarvie]

A few tips. Its all about the pins which you cut 1st. Once the pins are all set then you cut the tails to the pins. As you know make the pins wider so there easier to chop out. Saw out the pins, then pare them so they are straight. Take your combo sq apart and pit the ruler against the pins so the ruler is up and down then use the sq across the top of the pins and put it against the ruler, it will be on an angle. The sq should sit flush against the rule. You can pare as need be so the pins are flat and straight. Next pare the shoulders so they are flat. Put the sq together and put it into the shoulder like you would check the top of the board for square. Once that done the pins are ready to go.

The tails can be measured off the pins. 1st pare the shoulder on each end so they are square. If the shoulders are off you will see it. Then sq the rest of the tails and the shoulder between them. Fit the pieces and pare the tails to fit. The pins should not be touched. Make the tails fit the pins.

Hope this helps.

[frank shic]

have you watched frank klausz's dovetail a drawer dvd? i love his method of laying out the pins - no calipers needed!

[Greg Cuetara]

Frank I have not. I do remember sitting through a one on one with Frank at a woodworks show. Not too many people at the show and I got to talk with him for about an hour. Very interesting guy and very good method. The only thing that I really noticed was that he was working with pine and it is very forgiving when it comes to putting the joints together.

I made my second joint last night and it is better than the first but still on the learning curve. I will take my lessons learned into my 3rd tonight. Also got a little quicker. Took me about an hour last night instead of the 1.5 hours the night before.

Don Thank you for the advice. i need to sit down and figure out what you have said because i am not thinking straight right now or shall i say thinking WW right now.

[Bobby O'Neal]

I'm currently working on hand cut dovetails as well. Lots of fun. I'm a tails first fan. Good luck

[frank shic]

hang in there, men! the payoff is there once all the practice time has been invested :)

[Prashun Patel]

Kudos, Greg. Handcut dovetails is like learning to play an instrument. There's no way around sheer practice. More than any skill, I'm in awe of handcut dt's; it's the one technique that's dependent on the operator - not the quality of the tool.

In fact, (and I say this not bkz I can do it - but bkz I've seen it) the more expert people get, the less relevant the marking technique or saw type is.

Keep going!!!

[Don Jarvie]

I'll try to snap a few photos on what I'm talking about with the combo sq. I'm currently taking a workshop at the North Bennett St School and we are curently going over dovetails so the info is fresh in my mind. They like the pins 1st so its the pins.

[frank shic]

I'll try to snap a few photos on what I'm talking about with the combo sq. I'm currently taking a workshop at the North Bennett St School and we are curently going over dovetails so the info is fresh in my mind. They like the pins 1st so its the pins.

that's a legendary school. how's the class going, don?

[Don Jarvie]

The class is great. Its 10 Saturdays (8 hrs) all hand tools. We learned sharpening, using chisels and the plane, mortise and tenon and through and 1/2 blind dove tails. I finally learned how to sharpen correctly. We basically spent 12 hours sharpening on an oil stone. I'm lucky I live close by and have wanted to take the class for a while.

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Here are a few photos for squaring the pins. The ruler goes against the pin and the sq sits on top of the pins and is pushed against the ruler. You can then check to see if there are any gaps and pare accordingly. To check the shoulder, put the sq back together and place the sq against the face of the board so the ruler goes across the shoulder. Go back and forth to check for square. If you cut a good line with the marking gage you can use that as a reference.

Like I said once the pins are set you match the tails to them and pare the tails to fit. Don't touch the pins again.

Hope this helps.

[frank shic]

are you dovetailing maple or cherry?

[Jim Matthews]

Here are a few photos for squaring the pins. The ruler goes against the pin and the sq sits on top of the pins and is pushed against the ruler. You can then check to see if there are any gaps and pare accordingly. To check the shoulder, put the sq back together and place the sq against the face of the board so the ruler goes across the shoulder. Go back and forth to check for square. If you cut a good line with the marking gage you can use that as a reference.

After four separate classes, attempting to get a handle on getting the pins right, I saw Phil Lowe do this. He just tossed it off as an obvious check - and that was worth the price of classroom fees right there.
This is so simple because the flat ruler magnifies any alignment errors in the pins. It works for half-blind DTs, too.

Is Andy Glenn teaching your course? He's genuine, and capable to bring skills across.

*****

To the OP - I think these are good enough to glue up, and with a little burnishing - they might be rendered invisible.
William Ng has a technique for miter joints (http://wnwoodworkingschool.com/fixing-a-not-so-perfect-mitered-joint/) that are "challenged" which may just work for you, too.

FYI - I leave drawer fronts a little wider than the opening, so I can plane them to fit.
This step also allows you to get a smooth junction between the front and the side of you drawer.

Kudos to taking this on, I feel this is the hardest part of furniture building, and frequently overlooked. It's the only moving part, so it needs to be solid.
It's also the part you'll likely handle on a daily basis. That's a triple-threat right there; strong, functional and pretty. I can only manage two at a time...

Hickory - really? What's that stuff like to cut with a handsaw?

jim
wpt, ma

[Don Jarvie]

You hit the nail right on the head Jim. Its these little things like marking the reference face and side that make all the difference and you need someone to show you.

Unfortunatly since its a weekend class we don't get the full time instructors but get recent graduates looking to pick up some money.

Frank, thats maple. These are boards we used in the class and I just cut off the previous pins and tails.

[frank shic]

maple?!? ugggggggggh that's hard stuff!

[Greg Cuetara]

I have been following Mike Henderson's tutorial on the web which is saying to cut the tails first and then mark the pins and chop out the waste. No clue if I am have terminology correct here because i know I am getting confused. The pins are on the half-blind piece of wood?

Should I be going the other way and cutting the pins first and then making the tails fit?

Jim yes the hickory is pretty tough and it has not been easy on the chopping or the cutting. I have a lee valley 20tpi dovetail saw which seems to work pretty good. I think i just need to practice with it some more. The pull stroke works great but then i go to push and it almost seems like the saw needs to be broken in because it is very difficult to cut on the forward motion.

[Michael Peet]

The pins are on the half-blind piece of wood?

Yep. I keep it straight by remembering that the Pins are Parallel with the direction that the joint fits together.


Should I be going the other way and cutting the pins first and then making the tails fit?

Neither way is right or wrong. The important thing is to pick one and practice it. :)

Mike

[Chris Hedges]

All kinds of respect for NBS, but why on earth are you all using oil stones?

Chirs


We basically spent 12 hours sharpening on an oil stone.

[Don Jarvie]

We use oil stones because of cost. This is a beginner course and you need to buy 300 bucks worth of tools if you have none so asking someone to invest in a set of stones on top of the 300 is a bit much.

We have a few people in the class who have never done woodworking. I will say the oil stone did work well.

[frank shic]

did you consider the scary sharp method?

[David Posey]

All things considered, oilstones are pretty good for beginners because they are something that can stick with them for quite a while without a great deal of initial investment.

Scary sharp is cheap to start, but I can't count the number of threads where beginners have had problems because of dubbing over edges from paper not being glued down or getting things out of flat and taking 6 hours to fix it our constantly cutting the paper with the blade and I could go on and on. It's an imperfect method that works ok in a pinch.

I believe there's much undeserved hype about water stones. Sure, they cut faster, but really it only matters on initial setup. With the amount of flattening (and with some, presoaking) you have to do, I don't believe they really save you any time in the long run. Plus, the cost can be quite high for the beginner.

If you aren't using one with the oilstones already, I would add a strop to the regiment with some honing compound.

[Terry Beadle]

Be sure to use a marking knife and not a pencil.

Practice sawing to the marking knife line and the gaps will shrink to invisibility.

David Charlesworth's video on dove tailing is very helpful and his techniques will improve your dove tails no matter your skill level IMO.

Water Stones rule...hoot!

[frank shic]

getting the sandpaper back off the glass is a pain too... i might just have to "invest" in one of those worksharps!

[Jim Matthews]

Be sure to use a marking knife and not a pencil.
Practice sawing to the marking knife line and the gaps will shrink to invisibility.
David Charlesworth's video on dove tailing is very helpful and his techniques will improve your dove tails no matter your skill level IMO.
Water Stones rule...hoot!

I use a sharp #2 pencil and leave the line.
Using a knife (http://www.finewoodworking.com/Workshop/WorkshopPDF.aspx?id=34464) for marking pins and tails cuts into the wood you want to keep, does it not?

My pencil is the only tool I have not yet cut myself with.
(This list includes dead-blow hammers.)

[frank shic]

the pencil is way easier to see

[Michael Peet]

My pencil is the only tool I have not yet cut myself with.

I have a permanent graphite "tattoo" on the heel of my palm where I impaled myself with a pencil in 4th grade.


(This list includes dead-blow hammers.)

Now that's impressive :)


Using a knife (http://www.finewoodworking.com/Workshop/WorkshopPDF.aspx?id=34464) for marking pins and tails cuts into the wood you want to keep, does it not?

A little; I see your point (no pun intended). The knife also has the advantage of establishing the show edge. I sometimes trace the knife line with a pencil if I need help seeing it.

Mike

[lowell holmes]

whenever i'm dovetailing by hand i just think how pleasant it is not to have to wear those annoying ear muffs that otherwise accompany every single machining process... i might go back to trying to raise panels by hand once i get my bench vise installed again. the reason for my warning is that almost every woodworker goes through a power tool/hand tool acquisition phase and i'd like to spare you of all the reselling i had to do once my fascination in hand tools started waning!


Who sells tools? Isn't the goal to collect? :)

[Sam Murdoch]

I have a permanent graphite "tattoo" on the heel of my palm where I impaled myself with a pencil in 4th grade.
Mike


I have such a souvenir in my right thumb - just above the knuckle- courtesy of a mad little kid on a rampage, also in the 4th grade. I even remember the little dude's name :)

[frank shic]

i have one in my left wrist after attempting to chase a girl in high school while holding a newly sharpened pencil in the other hand... please don't ask for more details ;)