Need to engrave in colour

[lucas kreft]

I was going through the forum history, and the last post I seen for cermark/thermark was in 2007. I have clients and need to engrave in Colour. I'm looking for a CMYK or RGB colours heat dye/ink

[Dan Hintz]

From what I can tell, the couple of companies that were touting full-color "engraving" have gone out of business (or are on their last legs). Reality didn't quite meet up with their promises (or expectations) in terms of processing time, ease of use, etc.

Perhaps dye-sub will work for your application?

[lucas kreft]

Dye sub can easily be scratched?

[Mike Null]

Lucas

Dye sublimation is a printing/heat transfer process. It is quite durable but anything can be scratched if someone is intent on doing it.

[Richard Rumancik]

Lucas, what kind of products are you making? That will affect what technology is suitable. Dye sub subtrates absorb the ink into the surface, so it is not a coating applied on the face of the material. You cannot feel the presence of the ink layer, it is embedded in the surface. So if you scratch deep enough it will be damaged but you cannot scrape it off like a screen-printed or pad-printed mark.

You will need new equipment for this obviously. I tried dye sub 10 years ago an was impressed with the process but got rather disillusioned when my new $500 printer plugged with $400 of ink cartridges in it. The technology and inks have improved over they years so maybe it is worth investigating for your application. A trade show is a good place to get info if you can make it to one.

[Mike Null]

You must also use substrates which have a polymer coating so you can't just dye sub anything.

I encountered the same problems as Richard and threw my dye sub printer in the trash. I now buy the transfers for $1.99 per sheet.

[lucas kreft]

I was hoping to engrave images on granite, marble tile. So I would engrave my image then hoping to dry sub on the tile over the engraving. Is this possible? Are there dry sub machines than can go over rock? The dry sub will only go over the engraving, not the polished finish

[Mike Null]

I'm not aware of any process that will do what you want. A while back somebody posted some very well done hand painted work on engraved surfaces but that may not have the durability you're looking for.

[Dan Hintz]

I was hoping to engrave images on granite, marble tile. So I would engrave my image then hoping to dry sub on the tile over the engraving. Is this possible? Are there dry sub machines than can go over rock? The dry sub will only go over the engraving, not the polished finish
I'm not sure I understand the look you're after. Engraving into rock is typically not a 3D process (though if you blast away you can get some depth in certain soft materials, like marble). Do you want color, or do you want engraving?

[Ross Moshinsky]

I'm confused as well. If you want color accents in stone, you simply need to engrave and then color fill. There are plenty of different kinds of durable paint.

If you want it to look like a full color photo, a laser is not going to be close to the right piece of equipment. The only thing I could think of that would allow that is a flat bed printer and even that might not work.

[lucas kreft]

I do not want 3d engraving only 2d. I want to engrave and put ink on top of it, to produce colour.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Are you talking about doing a full color look or just a multi-color look?

Full Color:
http://www.kidsgeo.com/images/landscape.jpg

Multi-Color Logo:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Pepsi_logo_2008.svg/500px-Pepsi_logo_2008.svg.png

Full color you essentially can't do with a laser. Multi-color can be done. You simply engrave into the stone and then go back and fill the voids with color. If you want something less durable, pad printing/silk screening is a viable option.

[Mike Null]

At this year's ARA show Laserbits introduced a color fill product that may do what you want. http://www.laserbits.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=447_673

[Martin Boekers]

You may want to check this out, not a laser process, a bit expensive to set up but....
they will do your work reasonably and with no minimums! A neat very durable process!


www.enduring-images.com/?gclid=CN2x4frd4a4CFcsAQAoddxO2Yg (http://www.enduring-images.com/?gclid=CN2x4frd4a4CFcsAQAoddxO2Yg)

A UV printer is another option albeit EXPENSIVE!!

[lucas kreft]

This is done in ceramic tile. This is not sublimated!
230568230569

[Mike Null]

It's beautiful but what's your secret and how does the laser figure into the process?

[Peter Meacham]

I encountered the same problems as Richard and threw my dye sub printer in the trash. I now buy the transfers for $1.99 per sheet.[/QUOTE]

Mike

Can you talk more about the process you use with the transfers - or point me to a link where you discussed it before pls.

Pete

[Martin Boekers]

I encountered the same problems as Richard and threw my dye sub printer in the trash. I now buy the transfers for $1.99 per sheet.

Mike

Can you talk more about the process you use with the transfers - or point me to a link where you discussed it before pls.

Pete[/QUOTE]

There are many transfer processes out there, from heat transfer to water slide, each has it's ups and downs.
I used to do more in thae transfer process, but since I got a Ricoh gel printer, it's been back to dye sub.

You haven't given much info about what type of transfer you are using :)

[Mike Null]

Pete

this may offer a bit more info. There are several threads under clt. http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?67583-Difference-between-Dye-Sub-and-CLTT

[Mark Sipes]

Is this any closer??? http://www.smoke-wood.com/index.html

[Richard Rumancik]

This is done in ceramic tile. This is not sublimated!

Ok, Lucas, since you want us to guess . . .

How about . . . laser printed waterslide decal, applied to the tile and fired in a kiln?

[Mark Sipes]

Richard you beat me to it......but I can do the same on a tile with sublimation and then coat with "Frog Juice" to further UV and scratch protect.

So where does the granite and marble come in???

[lucas kreft]

it is printed on lamination film using ceramic toner. then dipped in water to take it off the lamination paper film, applied to the ceramic. All the water is then squeegeed off the tile/print then put into an oven to bake for a while.
you can only do this with ceramic and porcelain tile. Granite and marble can't withstand the oven adhesion process time. So this method can't put into practice.

I think the solution to do this process in full colour is with a laser. You print the image do the water process, and apply onto granite/marble, and take the water off. Once dry put on laser table and make a full 12" white engrave so the laser would bond the image, if a white silhouette is designed of the image (the laser will go on only where there is colour.).
I contacted the manufacture of the colour machine and they don't understand the laser process. I think the laser would bond the lamination paper to the rock.

[Martin Boekers]

Lucas, we have a distributer in the USA called Enduring Images for this process. It is expensive to set up.
They will do one ups starting at about $25. (plates/tiles) I am assuming this is the same process. You can use certain HP printers
black only as they have a high iron content in the inks/toner. So do they make decal sheets for you one up and
you fire it or are they firing it also? I have kiln access so if I bought decals I could fire it. It still is time consuming
for my market, although I could see venturing out into other markets were permanancy was key. Logos would be tough
as I was told color matching was difficult.

It may be difficult to do with a laser as when using a kiln, you ramp up to temp slowly as well as ramping down.
You have to hold temp at different levels also. Not sure if you can use standard "fired" tiles/plates or not, it may
need unfired pieces.

You may wan to do some research on glass fusing, you seem to be an experimentor and there are possibilities with fusing.

[Jean Paull]

Lucas, my understanding of what you are trying to achieve is

-You have a colored decal made for use with ceramics that you would like to use on granite or marble. Using it involves sliding off the cover sheet with water, applying the decal to a ceramic object and then firing it in a kiln to some high temperature which is greater than granite or marble would be able to tolerate.
-You are wondering if the heat of the laser could be used to apply the decal to granite/marble by lasering (ie. applying heat) only to the area of the decal image

If I have understood the issue, unfortunately I do not have an answer but it is of interest to me. I work with glass and have adhered vitreous enamels using a laser. It is my understanding that Cermark/Thermark work in this way. My tests to date have been successful only with black enamel. The laser tends to turn other colors grey and I have wondered if that is because the laser heat is too high and is burning out the colored pigments which for the product I'm using would be in excess of 1,500 degrees F. I have wondered if un-focusing the laser might decrease its temperature.

[Joe Hillmann]

Is this any closer??? http://www.smoke-wood.com/index.html


I wonder if that is just powder paint? It is pretty cool, but looks expensive since it needs to be engraved, paint added then engraved again.

[Martin Boekers]

I wonder if that is just powder paint? It is pretty cool, but looks expensive since it needs to be engraved, paint added then engraved again.
Some here have used toner or powder coat. I haven't played with it yet.

[Joe Hillmann]

I just gave it a try and it isn't working so well for me, the paint is melting and sticking to the wood but the grain is getting in the way and it sure isn't turning out as nice as they show on that link.

[Tim Bateson]

I wonder if that is just powder paint? It is pretty cool, but looks expensive since it needs to be engraved, paint added then engraved again.

Yes, It's a powder type of paint. I've not tried that brand - too expensive for me. Instead I bought a white, black, yellow, and Red in quart size containers from Harbor Freight for < $4 each. That's a life time supply for under $12. Haven't yet found a blue.
Yes, it's an involved 2 pass process: Laser, then spread powder and squeegee it, then laser again at a VERY light setting or you'll just laser it away. Dump the remainder back in the jar (99% of it). Vacuum/clean the piece, then finish with a clear coat spray of your choice.