Bandsaw Top Wheel Issue

[Keith Starosta]

I decided that it was high time to bring my Dad's old(er) Delta 14" bandsaw back from the dead. I've stripped off all of the guides/bearings/etc. and will be replacing everything with Carter guides and eurathane wheels. All is going very well at this point, save for the upper wheel. My understanding is that the upper wheel should spin free with the flick of a finger. Not the case here. It takes constant pressure on a spoke to turn the wheel. The close-up picture shows the nut that secures the wheel, and as you can see, it's not rusty. I'm wondering if it could be the amount of torque put down on the nut? I've always heard it was bad news to mess with that nut, so I'm not sure what to do. Any advice on how I might get that wheel spinning freely?

Thanks for any help you can give me!

- Keith

226118 226119

[Van Huskey]

Sounds like the wheel bearings.

[Bill Huber]

I agree with Van, it could be a bad bearing or a dirty bearing. Loosen the nut as see how it reacts, from looking at it I don't see how it could be to tight.
I would take the bearing out and take it to a bearing shop and they can get a replacement for it.

[John Coloccia]

What is that thing on there stamped "Taiwan"? Is that a washer? Just looking at it visually, that bearing seems like it's completely trashed. Maybe it's just a funny camera angle, but the Taiwan thing looks like the inner race and it looks like it's at a very unnatural angle.

[Keith Starosta]

Thanks for the replies, guys. I loosened the nut until it was "hanging on by a thread". At that point, the wheel spun free, with very little friction. There was a small amount of grinding sound coming from somewhere. I took the wheel completely off, cleaned up the outside of the bearing housing and took a picture. I don't know enough about the internal workings to know if what I saw was an issue, but there was an internal ring that was "floating" free. The outside rings turn freely as well. Unfortunately, I can't just look at the hub and tell if there is a problem with the bearing.

John, the word "Taiwan" is indeed stamped into the metal, along with what I guess is a lot number.

Thanks!

226125

[John Coloccia]

Was the "Taiwan" thing a washer? Generally, you shouldn't be able to make anything too tight because you're clamping down on the inner race of the bearing, and everything else turns freely. Was there a washer that was touching anything but the inner race? The freely moving "ring" on the inside is called a cage. It should move freely. It holds the ball bearings in the proper location. I have a feeling that the "Taiwan" thing is a washer, and that it was clamped down on the cage or the outer race.

[Keith Starosta]

Was the "Taiwan" thing a washer? Generally, you shouldn't be able to make anything too tight because you're clamping down on the inner race of the bearing, and everything else turns freely. Was there a washer that was touching anything but the inner race? The freely moving "ring" on the inside is called a cage. It should move freely. It holds the ball bearings in the proper location. I have a feeling that the "Taiwan" thing is a washer, and that it was clamped down on the cage or the outer race.


I took a better photo of the piece in question. To MY untrained eye, doesn't appear to be a washer. I tried gently to pry it out of there, but it seems to me like it was machine-pressed into the hub during manufacturing. The only actual washer I could find was behind the wheel on the post. I pulled it away from the base of the post, and it does seem to have some small metal shaving gunked up in there. I replaced the wheel, without pushing it all the way to the base, and gave it a spin. It spun beautifully, without any "grinding" sound. I pushed the wheel back to the base and spun. It still spun freely, but the grinding sound was back. Do I have to grease the post and/or the washer?


226131 226132

[Van Huskey]

I see what John is talking about. I didn't notice anything the first time because normally with bearings you can't tell anything about condition from the outside so I didn't enlarge the picture. Can you get a picture of the nut and the "washer" you took off? Normally there is not a washer. The thing you see hanging free inside is probably the retaining ring and normally isn't floating free. Do you know if anyone ever replaced the bearings? The number you see on the bearing itself is the bearing number probably has a ZZ on the end since it is probably a double sealed bearing.

The nut SHOULD only be putting pressure on the very center "donut".

I am not sure what John is saying the cage is, the cage is located behind the shields/seals between the inner and outer race and should not be visable unless the shields/seals are removed.

The smallest circle you see is the inner race, the middle is the seal and the outer ring is the outer race.


Edit I posted while you were posting. Going back I see there is no washer, what you see is the shield/seal it just looks really weird in the first picture.

The "washer" you see on the back is a shim.

When you say it is spinning free before you push it back is the center donut (race) spinning or is it stationary? If it is spinning when the wheel spins free and is stationary (like it should be in operation) when you push it back and hear grinding it is the bearing.

[John Coloccia]

In the last group of pictures, at picture number two, it looks like there it paint scraped away on part of the cabinet. I'm not familiar with the inner working of this saw, but it makes my wonder if the tracking is set so far off that the wheel is scraping against the cabinet.

[Van Huskey]

In the last group of pictures, at picture number two, it looks like there it paint scraped away on part of the cabinet. I'm not familiar with the inner working of this saw, but it makes my wonder if the tracking is set so far off that the wheel is scraping against the cabinet.


I bet that is a tracking "kiss mark". I think you NAILED it John. The top of the wheel is tilted too far in, based on everything as a whole I would bet money.

[Keith Starosta]

Gonna go check that now. Hopefully that's all it is.

Thanks very much for your help, gents!

- Keith

[Paul Nienaber]

I bet that is a tracking "kiss mark". I think you NAILED it John. The top of the wheel is tilted too far in, based on everything as a whole I would bet money.



That looks correct. The free floating piece inside the bearing is a spacer between two bearings. It keeps the bearings in the proper place in the wheel when you tighten the nut to hold the wheel on.

Paul
Edit: John already answered this part of the question.:rolleyes:

[Van Huskey]

That looks correct. The free floating piece inside the bearing is a spacer between two bearings. It keeps the bearings in the proper place in the wheel when you tighten the nut to hold the wheel on.

Paul
Edit: John already answered this part of the question.:rolleyes:

My bad, I need to be on my laptop instead of a tablet, it didn't look like a spacer and some 14" saws don't have the spacer so I was thinking the retaining slip was hanging loose.

[Keith Starosta]

Well, it turned out to be exactly that....when tightened down, there was not enough "shim" between the wheel and the back of the cabinet. I added three machine bushings to the one shim that was there, tightened everything down, and the wheel spins freely! I'm VERY much grateful for the help with this, guys.

Now, onto the cast iron top......wish me luck! :rolleyes:

226135

My favorite part is the rust spot that looks like a utility knife blade. :rolleyes:

- Keith

[Howard Acheson]

Let my suggest you re-consider converting to Carter Guides. Fine Woodworking did a article on band saw guides for 14" saws a number of years ago. They did not like large diameter roller guides like the Carter's. They found that they moved the blade contact/support point up on the top guide and lower on the lower guide reducing the control of the blade. They also found that they worked OK for wide resaw blades but did not do well for narrower blade. They were noisy, were easily damaged if the blade miss-tracked and damaged the blade under the same circumstances. Their conclusion was that the Cool Blocks were the best for multipurpose 14" band saws. Because they are set up in contact with the blade they provide the most support. They are quieter, and will not be themselves damaged or will not damage a blade in the event of miss-tracking. The biggest benefit was that the the least cost system of any they included in their tests.

[Van Huskey]

when tightened down, there was not enough "shim" between the wheel and the back of the cabinet.- Keith

You may want to relook at that. The shim is there to set get the top and bottom wheel coplaner. Adding shims move them out of plane assuming they were correct before. You want to check the tracking and see if the top of the wheel is tilted in too much. My guess is just a little movement of the tracking knob and you will be fine.

[Van Huskey]

Let my suggest you re-consider converting to Carter Guides. Fine Woodworking did a article on band saw guides for 14" saws a number of years ago. They did not like large diameter roller guides like the Carter's. They found that they moved the blade contact/support point up on the top guide and lower on the lower guide reducing the control of the blade. They also found that they worked OK for wide resaw blades but did not do well for narrower blade. They were noisy, were easily damaged if the blade miss-tracked and damaged the blade under the same circumstances. Their conclusion was that the Cool Blocks were the best for multipurpose 14" band saws. Because they are set up in contact with the blade they provide the most support. They are quieter, and will not be themselves damaged or will not damage a blade in the event of miss-tracking. The biggest benefit was that the the least cost system of any they included in their tests.

Block guides indeed have a lot of advantages for narrow blades in particular. Now if he adds a Carter Stabilizer then I prefer the "system" over just block guides. The only place the block guides will beat both pieces of the Carter system is if you use very narrow blades to cut straight, like cutting dovetails. I also prefer true Lignum Vitae to Cool Blocks but the difference is minamal but they are cheaper and wear better.

[Keith Starosta]

Van, thanks for the tip. I put a new 1/4" blade on the saw, and got the tracking all set. I powered up the saw, and let it run for a bit. It may track differently after I start sawing, but it sits right where it should at the moment.

I do indeed the a Carter Stabilizer for scroll-type cuts, using blades narrower than 3/8". I have the full Carter "system" for the rest. I've used a saw that had all of this Carter gear, and liked it just fine. Hopefully I find the same true for MY saw.

- Keith

[Myk Rian]

Don't worry about co-planar. When tensioned and tracked, that goes out the window anyway.
Stay with the Delta guides. You're better off. I made guides out of hardwood soaked in mineral oil. You can bury the blade in them for maximum stability of the blade.

[Keith Westfall]

Got to be fast here before some one gets in first!! I'll let my post stand though ... :)


I added three machine bushings to the one shim that was there, tightened everything down, and the wheel spins freely! I'm VERY much grateful for the help with this, guys.

This may NOT be a good fix! You will need to check the co-planer of the wheels (lots of references to that in here some place), but you may have the top wheel "to far out" from the bottom wheel and that will cause more problems down the road.

You need (some one jump in here with the name of THE band-saw book - mines out in the shop!) and get your saw tuned up from the start. You may just be trading one problem for another...

Good luck.

[Van Huskey]

The book Keith is talking about:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Complete-Guide-Band-Saw/dp/1565233182/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330947339&sr=8-1-spell

[Jerome Hanby]

Is this book worth the $14 or so if you already have his previous book?


The book Keith is talking about:

http://www.amazon.com/New-Complete-Guide-Band-Saw/dp/1565233182/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1330947339&sr=8-1-spell

[Van Huskey]

In my opinion yes, but you may be asking the wrong guy...:D

This is the first bandsaw book I thoroughly enjoyed cover to cover. The book is better all the way through and in between books Mark "discovered" the welded steel European saws so there is a lot of information about those as well. It is better written and better researched with better pictures. At the Amazon price if you have prime and or make it to the $25 free shipping point it is a no brainer IF you like woodworking books, if you have the first one and only want to use to tune your BS then you may not be so interested.