Teak decks

[Matt Chaiser]

Hello everyone.
Im working on an unusual project which requires a teak deck.
The unusual part is its in a smaller scale.
It has to have 3/32 inch planks laid out to form a teak deck on a 20 foot scale warship.
After much experimenting with teak veneer, I have managed to make planks the correct width.
As a relative novice to this part of the model, I have the need of you folks knowledge when I lay it out on the ship.
Specifically as to what glue to use to glue the strips down. And what to seal the deck with after its down to make it waterproof.
It will probably be glued to 5mm plywood(luan) although I have considered using an abs plastic underlay.
If I use the luan it will also have to be waterproofed before I lay the planks. I have been using fiberglass resin to coat the wood on other parts of the ship.
I thought I would see if you have any suggestions.
There is such a wide selection of glues and construction adhesives that I am definately not experienced enough to make the right choice.
Any help help would be welcomed.
Nice to meet all of you.
Matt

[Sam Murdoch]

Good questions! I'm just offering a thought that others may dismiss but - if you were to use a waterproof underlayment such as a true marine ply rather than luan you would not need to finish the teak ( I think :confused:, even at that thinness). Now, marine ply is not waterproof but it is free of voids and assembled with waterproof adhesive so it is very stable and rot resistant. Still might be advised to coat with epoxy resin and perhaps a layer of fiberglass or Dynel cloth. I think you could then just apply your teak strips with a skim coat of 5200 : http://www.3m.com/product/information/Marine-Fast-Cure-5200-Adhesive-Sealant.html, though I'm not sure how well this would adhere to the resin coated ply.

Hope that is some help, at least a start. Sounds like an interesting project.

Sam

[Matt Chaiser]

Yes That helps. Speaking of plywood adhesives.
The teak that Im using was too thin to cut reliably into narrow strips. So I used 3 pieces of 5 x 5 inch veneer and glued them up to form a plywood. turning the
center layer 90 degrees for strength. Slicing this thickness was much better and netted me 5 inch 'lumber' planks about the same size as wood matchsticks.
The glue I used was non foaming gorilla glue that said it was type II water proof. What type of glue does marine plywood use??
And can it be purchased for something like this?
Matt

[Sam Murdoch]

Matt, you are writing about a 20:1 scale model right? Will this really be getting time on the water? I'm rethinking that if you simply installed the complete deck - teak over plywood - then applied a wash coat of thin West System type epoxy you would have an effectively sealed waterproof deck, no matter what you use for the under teak substrate.

As for the adhesive in marine ply I am guessing that it is different from one manufacturer to the next. Pick a product and check the spec sheet.

My answer in my first post was for a more substantial boat - I think I read your post incorrectly - that you were building a 20 foot model of a much larger vessel. Thus the conflicting answers.

Sam

[Matt Chaiser]

Sam
It is a 20 foot ship. A 1/48th scale model of a battleship. The teak planks on the real ship were 4 inches wide. That means that the scale planks are about as wide as a wooden matchstick. Most of the upper deck was covered by teak. And I expect it will spend alot of time at sea, mostly in the Tampa Bay rivers and maybe the bay itself(on a calm day)
Because of its relatively low freeboard, I also expect it will take some water over the bow occasionally, regularly probably. The main deck that gets the teak has to be waterproof to the extent that it doesnt damage the the teak inlay, and so that it will shed the water over the side.
This deck is also removable to gain access to the internal systems such as servos and motors and the like. The rest of the ship structure that is exposed will be ABS and brass
above the deck edge so it wont be affected by water. The hull itself will be a composite of fiberglass and carbonfiber with a final coating of marine gelcoat, and of course
paint.
I hope that gives you a better idea.
What is Dynel cloth?
Matt

[Jim Matthews]

Could the strips be simulated, but scratching a bead in one larger board?

The opportunity for joint failure with so many tiny planks is mind boggling. The weight of that much adhesive may shift your center of gravity.
I would look for a Teak Veneer (http://marine-plywood.us/teak.htm) that's thick enough to allow tiny grooves to be scratched the length of the deck...

[Matt Chaiser]

Jim
Well I considered that possibility. I havent found any thicker teak as yet. Since these planks will be glued to a piece of plywood using resorcinol glue, I wouldnt think they would be under any stresses. Weight isnt an issue. The ship will already weigh about 1400 lbs, most of that low in the hull. And right now I have a considerable weight margin.
The upper deck, being removable, isnt the strength deck or the watertight deck. That deck is just below the upper and seals the ship as well as draining off any water that should work its way past the weather deck.
Scribing the teak with grooves would probably work , but the grain would match. And I tried that a little but you couldnt see the grooves. I tried not scribing but drawing the lines in with a very fine sharpie. It didnt look bad
but it also didnt look as good as the next experiment where I used single layer teak strips and laid them out as on the real ship. That looked excellent, but the single layer teak didnt cut well(splintered). Next I made a piece of teak 'plywood' using three pieces of veneer glued up at right angles to strengthen the wood. I made a fixture to cut them all the same width.
That worked perfectly to give me nearly square lumber planks 5 inches long(20 ft in 1/48th scale). Laying them down on the deck will indeed be tedious, but will give a nicer finished product. I think I have settled on the resorcinol two part glue, as that is what they use to make marine plywood. Supposedly once the glue dries it will hold even if submerged. It wont spend anytime submerged, just wet. Since the superstructure is primarily ABS, the only 'heavy' items above deck are the turrets and barbettes.
The batteries, generators, motors, shafts,electronics, piping and fuel are all below or at the waterline which will add stability. I will probably have to add weight to get the ride hieght at the waterline correct, especially forward. Which I can place well below the waterline.
One question I have though is on full scale boats with teak decks, there seems to be a black rubbery 'caulk' between the planks. Does anyone know what this is?
And is it the primary adhesive that is used to glue them down?
Matt

[Graham Wintersgill]

Matt

Interesting project. The black lines are caulking to let the teak expand or contract but stop the water going throught the gap. You would not require that as you are gluing onto plywood but still want the effect. One idea http://www.epoxyworks.com/12/newjersey.html This article describes doing it full size but filling the gaps with black epoxy. Unfortunately with your sizes I suspect it would be very difficult to finish without sanding out the teak http://www.westsystem.com/ss/wood-epoxy-longevity/. Good luck.

Regards

Graham

[Sam Murdoch]

Well Matt, I'm back to my original answer as I was closer to understanding the 1st time than in my 2nd post :D. And now that you've made up teak "plywood" planks I might try using 5200 as the glue down rather than the 2 part resorcinol just because of the mess involved and the curing time. You could apply the 5200 to your plywood substrate with a notched trowel and lay your deck in with minimal goop out - I think - (that's why I suggest a trial run). Once you start you are committed to a messy job in any event. I'm guessing that your teak is now pretty saturated with epoxy and so will never sand back to bare wood. If it can be taken to bare wood I definitely encourage the use of the 5200 because once your deck is laid you can have a nice clean teak deck that will, over time, look truly authentic as it grays with use and time. The resorcinol will give you a saturated deck that will never look quite right - I think! The down side to the 5200 is that it will take at least 7 days to dry, but it will leave you with a flexible waterproof deck. Hey, I'm not doing this and I never have laid a teak deck this tiny so I'm just sitting here giving opinions based mostly on speculation. What a project though. Can't wait for the pics.

Here is a link describing Dynel cloth - http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/siteMap.do?action=map2&catId=625

[Matt Chaiser]

Ok...
Ive come up with a new plan. Based on what you all have suggested, I went back and tried what Jim suggested about scribing. This time I used one of the 5 x 5 plywood
sections. Splintering didnt happen on this piece, so it will probably work if glued securely. Several trial and error methods finally netted a very good representation of the decks. In fact it was so good Im going to go with it..Thanks Jim!!
Sanding first, brush away the dust with a small brass brush, then scribe, then washing slightly with watered down black acrylic paint came out gorgeous. I will fiddle with the wash cycle...maybe even try rubbing in some no gloss tung oil dyed slightly black. I can get teak in 4 by 8 sheets of veneer, and use the 5200 to glue it to the under plywood.
This was a great help. And its going to save me, litterally, months of work. I bashed on the calculator and found out I would need about 15,000 little boards. It solved much of the issues with glue and appearance at the same time lots less work.
Will the tung oil idea help seal the wood do you you think??
MC

[Sam Murdoch]

Nice save. I was worried about your mental health with this deck project :D. It would be nice to leave the teak unfinished as that would be the most authentic. These decks were just washed and washed with salt water by able bodied men. The long term effect was a silvery gray that was pretty and skid proof (mostly). Otherwise, yes the tung oil will seal nicely. Have fun. Post pics!

[Jim Matthews]

Ok...
Ive come up with a new plan. Based on what you all have suggested, I went back and tried what Jim suggested about scribing. This time I used one of the 5 x 5 plywood
sections. Splintering didnt happen on this piece, so it will probably work if glued securely. Several trial and error methods finally netted a very good representation of the decks. In fact it was so good Im going to go with it..Thanks Jim!!MC

Dumb luck, if I get one right.
You did the hard part.

I would not use Tung oil on the teak. I would buff it as firmly as possible with a fine pad like Mirlon from the Mirka company.
Teak should raise a beautiful surface this way. If you must seal it, I would use a Marine appropriate varnish (http://www.epifanes.com/ecolors.htm) from Epifanes.

Oiled Teak will tend toward a silver color with sun exposure. The Epifanes product has a UV inhibitor to slow the process.
It will sound crazy, but I would make two identical decks that can be swapped out. That way, you could always have one finished for display purposes.
(Not that I think that would be easy, mind you.)

Pictures, man, PICTURES!

jim
wpt, ma

[Sam Murdoch]

Dumb luck, if I get one right.
You did the hard part.

I would not use Tung oil on the teak. I would buff it as firmly as possible with a fine pad like Mirlon from the Mirka company.
Teak should raise a beautiful surface this way. If you must seal it, I would use a Marine appropriate varnish (http://www.epifanes.com/ecolors.htm) from Epifanes.

Oiled Teak will tend toward a silver color with sun exposure. The Epifanes product has a UV inhibitor to slow the process.
It will sound crazy, but I would make two identical decks that can be swapped out. That way, you could always have one finished for display purposes.
(Not that I think that would be easy, mind you.)

Pictures, man, PICTURES!

jim
wpt, ma

I'll argue :) with Jim here - in favor of the gray teak. That's a real teak deck!

[Matt Chaiser]

Yeah I was questioning my own sanity when I realized how daunting the task was. It was just that none of the test sections looked like I wanted. I figured that you folks would
reboot my brain for me and I could come up with an alternative. This ship is already complicated enough with all of its various systems. I hope it will end up in a museam at some point. Ill send some pics pretty soon.
MattC

[Matt Chaiser]

I dont mind sending some pics, but it will probably look fairly crude by your standards. And I had to correct some errors I made. Its all from scratch. And much of it was trial and error. It should be straight and solid though. Plus I have to figure out how to post the pics.
MC

[Matt Chaiser]

Jim
I do want to seal it. but it cannot be shiny at all. I etched the one layer veneer after gluing it to 1/8 ABS with 5200. I might use another layer of veneer with the grain at 90 degrees under the top layer. That would give me a reasonable depth to work with when I scribe the top layer...maybe not ...
Do I even have to seal teak?

[Matt Chaiser]

How much exposure are we talking about until it gets its grayish color?
MC

[Sam Murdoch]

As I've written - the treatment of teak decks has traditionally been scrubbing with salt water. We treat the teak on our little boat and some of our outdoor furniture with a washing and a few coats of teal oil every spring but by the following spring, as a result of natural weathering, the gray begins to emerge blended in with the teak brown. I think a few seasons and silvery gray will be the dominant color. The salt water wash and scrub can only accelerate the process.

[Matt Chaiser]

Ok here goes for a few pictures early during construction...and some external parts I molded...Ah It woukldnt let me load but 1 picture. It said the rest were too large??
This one is the shaft alleys under turret 4 right after "plating over".

[Matt Chaiser]

Actually I like the Idea of two decks. Since the main deck as well as the 01 deck were teak it would all have to be removable. Some of the deck was going to be permanent, but that wouldnt be hard too change. Really the hardest part is concealing the seams where removable meets fixed deck areas. The whole forward deck area could come off in one piece except for an area between the forward turrets, which is permanent. Same for both after turrets and the quarterdeck. Amidships there is a large number of antiaircraft galleries and ammo boxes to conceal the seams. Is teak oil specific for teak, and does it seal like tung oil? Would it also be low gloss?