Powermatic shaper 25a

[Prashun Patel]

I have the chance to get this safer almost new for about $1000 delivered.

I Am an avid hobbyist and believe a router table will do fine for my needs. Is this a good buy or should I instead spend my money on a tricked out router table?

i can't find any reviews for this machine online.

[Bill White]

Just me, but the shaper cutters are pretty expensive, and I feel the router in a good table set up gives me all the flexibility I need in my shop. Having the variable speed router sure has been a plus.
If you were in a real production mode, the shaper might be an asset.
My vote (with your money) is for a nice router table.
Bill

[Chris Hedges]

My votes is for the shaper. You are gonna spend at least that much on router, table, and lift. With the shaper you get a much better motor that develops a heck of a lot more torque. As for bits, call powermatic tech and have them ship you the router collet assembly and you are off to the races.

[joe milana]

That shaper with a euro block cutter & you would have a decent little machine. Boxes sets provied a nice collection of profiles for less than $500. Performance while spinning router bits would be marginal at best. Just not enough RPM. I can't think of anything you couldn't do with this setup that could be done on a router table. Setup on a tricked out router table may be easier.

[Chris Hedges]

You can easily compensate for lower Rpm by slowing down your feed rate.

Chris

[Peter Quinn]

In top condition IMO thats a pretty good deal for that class of shaper, assuming it has all the spindles (1/2", 3/4" and 1") that came with it. It will beat the pants off any router table at door making, molding, pattern work, and a few other things. Its still nice to have a router table, but you can really fashion something fairly simple and do some pretty accurate work. So between tricked out mega router table and shaper, I'd go shaper. With a euro block insert head the cutters are actually cheaper than many router bits in HSS, the cut quality is better. But you would want a feeder, so thats more money. And some shaper cutters can get expensive. But you don't have to buy top flight industrial stuff to get good performance on a budget. I guess the voice really depends on what you like to make, how much of it, and how you like to work. A router will be cheaper long term, but you weight that against speed, quality and ease of use.

[Butch Spears]

I have that shaper, I have a router bit spindle " just put in collet" that can be put on for using router bits. It is a great machine. If you want to do raised panel doors. It is a breeze, buy you a set of the profile cutters that you like and you will be very pleased.I think I paid about $300.00 for the first set of cutters.

[Carl Beckett]

I think the rotational speed might be worth considering more. If you make a lot of cuts with 1/4" dia and less bits, the higher speed of the router might serve you well (and power isnt a problem). If you knock out a lot of raised panel doors and are swinging big bits, the shaper might prove more beneficial (slower speed, but high torques).

Those shaper bits do a beautiful job, but for sure are not cheap. It wouldnt be that hard to end up with more in the cutters than the cost of the machine itself so factor that into future operating budget.

I wouldnt mind having each. But my floorspace is already cramped.

[Rod Sheridan]

Without a doubt, get the shaper, followed by "The Spindle Moulder Handbook" by Stephenson.

Don't bother with other books, the North American books are decades out of date with respect to modern safety standards.

Have fun with the shaper...................Regards, Rod

[Jeff Duncan]

I personally go shaper every time, just not a fan of tricked out router tables. My router table is as simple as it gets and it's done everything I've needed it to. Now as for that particular shaper I don't know much about it. I had a Powermatic 27 which is a very nice machine for a small shop, it's very similar to the 26's I believe, but not sure where the 25 fits in. The price doesn't seem too bad, but not a bottom feeder price either.

Only you can decide what you need for your type of work. You don't seem to be sold on the idea of having a shaper so maybe your just not ready for one yet. Or maybe you'll never need one? Of course if it's in great shape and you can do a bit better on the price, you may be able to re-sell it down the road without losing any money if you change your mind;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Van Huskey]

I honestly see them as apples and oranges. Each has things they do better then the other. If you are only going to have one I think you need to decide what functions you need more often and move that directions.

[Prashun Patel]

What does a router table do better than a shaper table?

[Jeff Duncan]

What does a router table do better than a shaper table?

Smaller things like 1/4" round overs and such are a bit easier to set up on the router table.....and much cheaper to buy too! I'm not sure a router table really does anything "better" but there are some things that it has the advantage in terms of cost of cutters and ease of setting up. I'm up to 3 shapers now, (you can't ever have too many shapers!!!) and I still use the router table from time to time.

good luck,
JeffD

[Andrew Joiner]

I personally go shaper every time, just not a fan of tricked out router tables. My router table is as simple as it gets and it's done everything I've needed it to.


JeffD

Jeff gave a good unbiased opinion,given his passion for shapers.

I got the Delta Model 43-205 shaper for my cabinet shop in 1977. In those days router tables weren't common. I thought I invented it when I bolted a router to my table saw outfeed table! Having both, with lots of router bits and only a few shaper cutters I'd use the router table most of the time or the shaper with a router bit in it.

Most of the time it was either get the job done or wait and pay extra for shaper tooling.

I love the versatility and low cost of a simple router table.

[Rod Sheridan]

Smaller things like 1/4" round overs and such are a bit easier to set up on the router table.....and much cheaper to buy too! I'm not sure a router table really does anything "better" but there are some things that it has the advantage in terms of cost of cutters and ease of setting up. I'm up to 3 shapers now, (you can't ever have too many shapers!!!) and I still use the router table from time to time.

good luck,
JeffD

Hi, I'm not sure about the setup time as I don't own a router table, however to set up a shaper for a 1/4" roundover I would

- change the knives in my insert head to 1/4" profile 60 seconds or less

- place the cutter head on the spindle and tighten it down 30 seconds or less

- adjust spindle height 10 to 20 seconds

- adjust fence same as a router table

- adjust guard and hold downs same as a router table

- or use power feeder rarely used on a router table

I don't see much difference in the two for setup time, and be honest, if you saved 60 seconds it wouldn't be a deal breaker one way or the other, however when you start looking at what a shaper can do compared to a router table then you see serious differences.

As for cost, knives are about $20 per pair, which looks about the same as an average router bit price since they seem to be in the $10 to $100 range.

Oh, and the $20 knives, they have 4 different radius profiles so I guess they're only $5 each..............Rod.

[Jeff Duncan]

Rod, who mentioned setup time???

I mentioned ease, which since I have and use both...will stick to;)

Now as for cost you failed to include the couple hundred dollars your head costs....those knives won't get you far without the head:eek:

Now as has been mentioned I'm a pretty big proponent for shapers, and I could go on until everyone's bored to tears on how great they are. If your going to compare them though, then let's at least be fair. A typical round over takes less than a minute to be up and running on a router table. So it is a bit faster.....but I was talking about "ease" of setup....popping a single bit in with a bearing on it and routing is IMHO a bit easier than installing a cutter into a head, installing a head on the machine, setting a fence more accurately since you don't have a built-in bearing, then making a test cut to make sure your fence is dead on, again b/c you don't have a built in bearing. In this case the router table is "a bit easier" again IMO.

Now you may disagree, that's certainly OK by me, everyone has their own opinion, but at least disagree with me on something I actually said...(or in this case....wrote):)

JeffD

[Rod Sheridan]

My apology Jeff, I mistook ease for speed.

Yes, you need a head for insert knives, however they're not expensive, and they do save money.............Rod.

P.S. As for the bearing, I find it complicates things by following any irregularity instead of averaging it out like a fence does/

[david brum]

I do love a good shaper thread. I have both in my shop, and use them for different things. For an example, I'm working on a Greene and Greene dresser right now. I made lots of templates for the legs, drawers, handles, etc. I used my shaper with a 2 1/2" diameter, 1" tall cutter and bearing for the more gentle curves on the bigger pieces. It left a much cleaner, smoother and unburnt finish than I could ever get with a router bit. It's also quieter and sort of feels like cutting butter. On the other hand, on smaller pieces like the handles, the curves are tight and a 1/2" router template bit is required. I tried using the router bit in my shaper, even though I knew better. The low rpm just destroyed the wood, whereas the same bit in a router worked fine. I wouldn't even think of trying to rout a groove with a straight router bit, using a shaper. They are just not the same tool, and each has it's strengths. Mine both get used a lot, depending on the scale of the project.

Regarding cost of tooling for shapers, we hear a lot of discussion about industrial tooling for professionals. They are expensive. For the amateur hobbyist guy, shaper cutters don't really need to be much more money than router bits. As an example, I have several Grizzly 1/2" bore shaper cutters. They are around $20 a pop and leave a better finish than I've ever gotten from router bits, even though they're little for shaper cutters. Some are reversible, with a profile on each end. They are a great way to get your feet wet if your shaper will take them. The Euro cutters that Rod mentioned are also a bargain. My Euro head was around $80. I just buy cutter profiles as I need them. They're available all over the place. They will make a clean cut that no router bit could hope to match. Way less sanding, less tear out, etc.

There are also used cutters that crop up on ebay, craigslist, etc.

[Prashun Patel]

I passed on the shaper. I wouldn't use it enough to justify the cost of the cutters. A router table feels like a better solution for my light use needs.

If anyone is interested, the shaper's still available on CL Central NJ. I think he's even offering delivery locally.

[Jeff Duncan]

i took a look but didn't see that particular shaper, I did see 3 other decent machines for less money though. Including a 3 hp Delta for $500 that looks pretty appealing!

just saying....

JeffD

[Van Huskey]

I often wonder if there isn't a hole in the market. What about a 3hp hobby priced "shaper" that also has a high speed router spindle included. It would need to be designed to handle and produce the high speeds small router bits need but it wouldn't be any big deal at all. I would love to see a heavy duty version of the Incra fence on it. A 4 to 1 speed range is no big deal, 6,000 to 24,000rpm.

[Jerome Hanby]

Based on the spindles I've seen, 24,000 RPM feels pretty scary. Would you need a new type of spindle (more directly a new way to mount one).


I often wonder if there isn't a hole in the market. What about a 3hp hobby priced "shaper" that also has a high speed router spindle included. It would need to be designed to handle and produce the high speeds small router bits need but it wouldn't be any big deal at all. I would love to see a heavy duty version of the Incra fence on it. A 4 to 1 speed range is no big deal, 6,000 to 24,000rpm.

[Andrew Joiner]

Based on the spindles I've seen, 24,000 RPM feels pretty scary. Would you need a new type of spindle (more directly a new way to mount one).

Maybe liability issues preventing this kind off innovation? Great idea Van.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm not sure there really is a hole in the market...depends on what you consider hobby price I guess? You can buy a Delta, Powermatic, or a Grizzly for instance and get router collets with them. They'll spin up to somewhere in the 10k rpm range with an induction motor. Faster speeds aren't all that necessary IMHO though, FWIW I've never subscribed to the theory that you can't run router bits with good results in a shaper.....probably b/c I do it fairly frequently in mine at only 8k rpm;)

Now if you really wanted that fast a spindle they're available as pin routers....but they're not cheap new, and even used usually fetch as much as a small shaper. And the demand is so low they're pretty much on the soon to be extinct list of WW machinery.

good luck,
JeffD