Kirk to Scotty: "Engage the Warp Drive."

[Russell Neyman]

Another chapter in the ongoing effort to "push the envelope"....

As my recent posts have indicated, several turners in my local community have been experimenting with turning green wood (madrone, mostly) and allowing the distortions to take place. Usually these end up being oval or kidney bean shaped, but sometimes they go crazy. I saw a segment on Yoder's Woodturning Show (PPS) where a guy makes hats and gently pursuades them to curl into a desired configuration with weights and rubber bands, and that intrigued me. So, with that as the backstory, here's what I'd like to share today and see what experiences the Sawmill Creek Community has:

I plan to turn a large, extremely wet madrone blank this weekend -- fairly thin, probably -- and when I'm done, place it in a plywood frame under slight pressure to shape it into a very slight star shape. The idea is to create a more visually interesting rim, while allowing some of the other drying magic to happen. I also plan to clamp it face down to minimize the up-and-down directional warping. My concerns are that fighting/controlling the distortions might cause it to crack, but I'm going to proceed with it anyway, figuring my chances of success are about 50-50. I'm going to be unagressive with this, but try to persuade the wood to go where I want it to go.

Has anyone ever tried something like this before?

[Scott Hackler]

I kinda understand what you wish to have as an end product, but mardrone has a mind of it's own and although you can pursuade it in a slight direction.....it's gonna distort how it wants! Gererally, the more burl or figure in the wood the more madrone moves.

I will be waiting to see how it pans out. I love madrone and how it moved after the fact.

I have thought about "moulding" a green turning in a form while it dries and one thing I had suggested by another turner was to steam the thin wood really good before attempting the forming portion.

Good luck!

[Russell Neyman]

This one will be large and impractical to steam; what about simply boiling it for a few minutes? It's wet anyway, so that should work, right?

[Scott Hackler]

Russell, even suspending the open side over a large pot of boiling water, should, soften it up a bit. Regular boiling is a technique that people use to stop madrone from its characteristic moving, so I don't know if I would do that...but then again I like the way madrone moves all around.

When contiplating how I was going to do my idea, I was going to turn a lampshade (closed bottom, looking more like a wide vase) and place it directly over a boiling pot of water for some time. The bend time between steamed and bending is short, so I was going to have the form next to the stove so I could transfer it immediately. Like I said, I haven't done this yet. I was just thinking about how to attempt it. My goal, in my head, was to have a wavey sided vase.

[Russell Neyman]

When contiplating how I was going to do my idea, I was going to turn a lampshade (closed bottom, looking more like a wide vase) and place it directly over a boiling pot of water for some time... Like I said, I haven't done this yet. I was just thinking about how to attempt it. My goal, in my head, was to have a wavey sided vase.

Sounds like you and I will be living parallel lives for a period of time! Where do you get your wet madrone? It certainly doesn't grow in Kansas, does it?

I use that boiling technique fairly frequently, and it works well, but you still need to store the darn thing afterward and let it dry for months to get it completely stable. I believe I saw one of your HF's turned green a while back, didn't I? Madrone has so many variations, and you just don't know what you'll get. I haven't done much of the burl variety, but have recently picked up a fair amount of crotch as well as clear stuff. If you let it cure completely, it's as hard as a rock!

[Reed Gray]

If you plan to change the over all natural warping shape of the Madrone, it will/can work as long as you use compression/pushing. If you try to pull in any direction, it will split. So, when trying to make your star, you can strap over it to pull points in, but if you try to brace it from the inside to keep the points out, it will surely crack. Christian Burshard, down in Ashland used to do some interesting 'baskets' of paper thin Madrone burl, and he would use tape to distort the shapes.

robo hippy

[Scott Hackler]

Russell, no there isn't any madrone in Kansas. I bought a few pieces from Mike Smith when I was at SWAT in Waco, last fall. He had them double dipped (I think) to seal them up real good. I turned the one in a thrown clay pot form. It turned out pretty neat IMO. The other is still waiting for me in the shop. Its a NE block and I just need to make time to turn it. I really enjoyed turning it and if I had a source close by, I would buy and turn more of it. :)

[Rick Markham]

Madrone does what it wants... when it wants. I'm interested to see how this turns out. The best advice I can give you is to turn it in one sitting, especially once you have started hollowing, As soon as the lathe stops spinning, the warping begins. I think you are going to have the most success turning it exceptionally thin (3/16"- 1/8", I'd shoot for the 3/16") that being said, it doesn't leave you ANY room for warping once you have started hollowing, so finish what ya start, or it's gonna get "wonky" on you. (technical jargon lol) I'd be inclined to try and find a big container and steam it in the container, submerging it in boiling water isn't going to provide the heat required to permit bending, suspending over the pot may give you enough to quickly shape the rim, but probably not much.

If I was determined to try this, I would get a steam generator (or creatively find a good way to make my own) and pump it into a container made to fit the form and your mould for the form. It might take a few tries of in an out of the steam to get it to bend the way you want. It's worth a shot, might be super cool.

Madrone loves to do it's own thing, it shrinks in very uneven ways, anything with curl will generally shrink more than the surrounding unfigured areas, it makes for a cool texture. I am looking forward to seeing where this takes you, and how the piece turns out.

Here is a before picture (Immediately after parting off the lathe)
226016

After warping drying (about 2 weeks later)

226017
226018
226019

[Russell Neyman]

Ah, Rick, it was your work I saw here earlier! Couldn't remember who had done it. I've had some of my madrone get pretty "wonky" but your burl-based vessel is about as extreme as I've seen.

[Rick Markham]

Listen to Reed, he knows what's going on with Madrone. It's having read Reed's posts about madrone that made that vessel a success, it still is in perfect condition, no cracks have formed (I'm surprised, some of the movement in this piece was exceptionally drastic) My only wish with this piece, is that I had tried to finish the bottom immediately after parting. The problem is I'm not sure it would have been successful, this thing had moved visibly within the first 3 minutes of being parted off the lathe, the neck/ rim had already started warping. I just left it and let it do it's thing.

Reed, I'd like to try the basket thing, that sounds pretty cool. I can imagine the baskets looking like the baskets that Chihuly tried to emulate in some of his glasswork.

[Reed Gray]

Rick,
From looking at the piece, I would guess a stump burl, and from the part where the tree buttresses out from the trunk. While that type of movement is not normal for most woods, it is normal for Madrone.

http://www.burchardstudio.com/baskets.html

robo hippy

[Jim Underwood]

My only thought is to keep the thing wet while turning. The guy who did our hat turning demo kept spraying it with water during the turning, and stored the fresh blank in a bucket of water before turning.

[Rick Markham]

Reed, I have seen his work published somewhere, and the baskets are just as I imagined and I believe based off of the same baskets Chihuly was emulating. For the life of me, I cannot remember what native tribe made the originals. I was aware of madrones extreme movement, though it makes a much bigger impact watching it happen in person. I loved turning that piece, madrone is almost magical to turn, it's like ribbons of silk pouring off the gouge or cutter. Hopefully some day I will get a chance to turn some more of it!

[Russell Neyman]

Yeah, I turned an urn-style yesterday at three in the afternoon, headed for the local watering hole to watch the end of the Nascar race, and the darn thing had already warped before I sat down at the bar. But it's still dense and beautiful. Great stuff.

[robert baccus]

Wow--and i thought sweetgum was warpy. i've had one as bad, another california wood turned inside-out--a closed form of river-red gum. obviously compression wood with bee's wing figure to boot.--------------old forester

[Russell Neyman]

Robert: My wood supplier says red gum and eucalyptus are one in the same. True?

Jim: Keeping it wet makes perfect sense, and I think I'll keep a spray bottle near the lathe. In the past I worked fast enough drying too soon wasn't an issue, but having that as a safety net would be smart.

[Reed Gray]

Well, Eucalyptus I think, is the botanical name for gum trees, but they are not related to sweet gum that is native here. There are many species, kind of like maple or oak.

robo hippy