Hand Saw Setting question.

[Mike Holbrook]

I won a nice Disston D8 saw that is in very good shape.... except, seems there is always something...The person who cleaned the saw blade went right over the teeth too. This, of course, ground all and I do mean all of the set off the teeth. Once the blade sinks into wood the blade binds and becomes practically impossible to move.

I know I need to set the teeth. I am just a little worried about how to approach these particular teeth. Herman warns in his video that it is easy to break teeth off if the sharpener attempts to set the teeth in the opposite direction they were originally set. In the case of this saw there is no existing set to read, no way to tell which way the teeth were originally set, at least that I know of. The teeth, other than having no set, are in good shape, sharp and evenly shaped.

I guess there are two ways to approach this: 1) go ahead and joint the teeth down low and start over 2) try a light tooth set on the teeth as they are and see what happens. I have a SOMAX No. 250 saw set which is suppose to set tooth sizes from 4-12. I was thinking about turning the dial on the set up all the way up to 12 and trying to make some set with very low hand pressure. Herman says in his video to use light pressure and not expect to see the set as it is being made. Being new at setting teeth I am just not sure what low pressure would feel like.

I don't think a picture of the saw will help, 10 ppi teeth that just appear shinny on their sides.

[Gary Daniel]

I assume if it is a crosscut saw, you should be able to tell how the teeth were previously set by looking down over the teeth and seeing the fleam angle it was filed at. If you lightly joint the saw, the side of the tooth that "shines" the most is the direction to set it in. I hope this makes sense without a drawing.

Good luck.

[Bill Haumann]

+1

I assume the 10 pt D-8 is crosscut as well.

[Mike Holbrook]

I can see that every other tooth is larger & more shiny from one side. I think I push the taller pointy side of each tooth away from the setting tool? I think this makes the outer or taller sides of the teeth on each side further from the center of the saw, making the teeth form a V pattern in the wood? If I am reading the diagrams correctly?

I only have the Somax No. 250, gold tool for 4-12 teeth. The blue fine tool is suppose to be for 12-26 size teeth and was out of stock when I ordered. However I believe some people suggest using the blue tool on most smaller teeth because it has a narrower plunger. I see Tools for Making Wood has the smaller tool should I order one for these teeth? Or should I give it a go with the gold tool set at 10 or 12?

[David Weaver]

Yes. Mark every other tooth with a red marker or something if you need to, so you don't get lost when you're over the saw.

[Jim Koepke]

I can see that every other tooth is larger & more shiny from one side.

The teeth looking larger can be an illusion caused by the fleam. If some teeth are actually larger, then the saw needs to be filed again.

The shiny side is most likely from those teeth being effected more by an abrasive that was used to clean the saw. The set had those teeth standing higher on the side being cleaned and kept the abrasive from hitting the teeth set toward the other side.

As far as you saw set question, I am not familiar with your particular model saw set.

My method of setting teeth is to have the tool set for the least amount of set. No matter how hard you squeeze the handles, the tooth is only going to move as far as the anvil allows. You should not be pressing hard enough to compress the metal, if that is at all possible. It is easy to add more set later. If you do not have a good vise, it is difficult to accurately remove set.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

I am probably not explaining what I see very well. One side of each tooth appears to have more surface area than the other side. I believe one side of each tooth has fleam filled in it's surface reducing the area on the surface. The fleam also seems to cause one side, the side away from the fleam, to come to a point which sticks up a little taller on that side of the tooth. The comparative lack of reflection on the fleam certainly accentuates the visual impression of each tooth appearing larger from one side of the saw than the other.

I have a hard time telling whether the teeth I am looking at with fleam in them are the same height as the ones on the same side of the saw that have the fleam on the other side. Staring at a tooth from the side with the fleam always seems to make the tooth look smaller and shorter than looking at it from the opposite, no fleam, side. I imagine the more fleam the teeth have the smaller they look from the fleam side.

Wenzloff and Tools for Working Wood both carry sets made in Japan, I believe this is the only company still making them. SOMA makes two sets, both Wenzloff and TFWW seem to steer their buyers to the smaller set for most saws, even though reading the range of teeth each is suppose to be made for one might think the larger set would work with more of the typical teeth. Although the larger set does have too large a plunger for most backsaws. When I ordered from Wenzloff they were out of the blue set so all I have is the gold, larger, set.

I have the Gramercy saw vise, just got it mounted on a jig that I can clamp easily to the bench. I have a large selection of saw files.

[David Weaver]

Put a straight edge against the teeth to see if they're all the same height. A properly filed crosscut saw will always result in the teeth nearer to you looking bigger and taller, even when they're the same height.

[Jim Matthews]

I have had decent luck getting a light set using the skinny end of a Warrington hammer.

Raise the head up to the same height, and just let the little hammer drop. Heavier hammer = heavier set.
The hard part is keeping track, any smaller than 10 TPI and I can't really see the teeth without magnification (and a raking light source).

It's fast this way, but not precise. I have a beater D-23 that I practiced on, which now cuts straight and true.

[Mike Allen1010]

Put a straight edge against the teeth to see if they're all the same height. A properly filed crosscut saw will always result in the teeth nearer to you looking bigger and taller, even when they're the same height.

+1 to David's comment about using a straight edge to see if all the teeth are the same height.

The teeth filed/set away from you can appear to be larger/wider than those filed/set towards you, even though they are the same profile/size. This is due to both the fleam angle and any slope to the gulletts, as these are only visible when looking at teeth filed/set away from you.

There is really very little difference between either of the SOMAX sets; the anvil or "plunger" on the blues set is marginally smaller, however either one will work equally well for a 10 PPI saw. The only time I think it makes a difference IMHO is for teeth larger than 6 PPI or smaller than 12 PPI.

Regardless of which Somax set you're using, it is a good idea to start with the lightest setting which is #12 (the numbers on anvil of these sets just quantify the relative amount of set being added and do not correspond to the number of PPI).

The best way to get a handle on "how much set" to add is to use an accurate dial machinist caliper. Measure the thickness of the saw plate immediately above the tooth line, and then set the first 1" of teeth at the heel - then measure the width of the teeth you've just set at their tips. A good rule of thumb is to shoot for a set amount about 20% wider than the width of the plate itself. Adjust the setting on the anvil of your saw set accordingly till you get to this target.

A set amount about 20% wider than the width of the plate at the toothline is just a guideline for Cross cut saw.

After you set the teeth, you should Joint the tips of the teeth with a 10" mill file and then make one more pass with the saw file For final sharpening, aiming to eliminate any flat tips (this ensures all your teeth are the same height after final sharpening). Finally, lightly stone the edges of the teeth after sharpening to remove any burrs on the outside edge of the teeth.

These last two steps will remove some of the set you have added. With a little practice and experimenting you will learn how much set you need to add initially to end up at your target. The ultimate test is how the saw works in the cut.

How much set you end up with is really a matter of personal preference; in general the less set you have the faster the saw will cut (you removing less wood with a narrower kerf) and will be more accurate (starts straight and stays straight) -- however you will have less ability to "steer" the saw once you've started the kerf.

In general, more set is needed for use in soft woods (especially if they're wet), than kiln dried hardwoods. Personally, I also tend to add a little more set for rip saws than crosscut as the rip cuts tend to be longer -- deeper cuts with more potential for the plate to bind than cross cuts. If the saw plate is straight without any dings or dents and polished you can also get away with less set than if it's not.

FWIW, the rough guidelines I use For kiln dried hardwoods are:

* 5% set for Dovetail saws.

* 10% set for backsaws.

* 15% set for 10 PPI or finer full-size crosscut saws.

* 20% set for 9 PPI or larger full-size crosscut saws.

* 20-25% set for full-size rip saws.

I adjust these guidelines based on the individual characteristics of the saw such as how much it's taper ground, the stiffness/smoothness of the plate, the specific use the saw is intended for (type of wood/thickness of stock etc).

I don't claim to be an expert, this is just what works for me. There are others here on SMC that are much more knowledgeable than me. Sorry for the long post, I hope some find it helpful/of interest.

All the best, Mike