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ray hampton
02-29-2012, 8:31 PM
I read a report about the Ford Motor company brand new tool, it seems that replacing your spark plugs could cost you a arm and leg because of the plugs breaking off when the mechanic are removing them and the pieces fall into the cylinder, the cost for all plugs could cost over 3 thousand dollars but the company did invent a new tool that will remove the broke pieces out of the cylinder, do the engine remains in the truck or get yank out for the plug removing ?

glenn bradley
02-29-2012, 8:48 PM
Sounds like an issue that should be solved a little farther up the trough, eh?

Anthony Whitesell
02-29-2012, 9:01 PM
Did Ford note which years this pertained too?

The combination of the aluminum block, or more exactly the aluminum head, and the development of the "lifetime" spark plugs cause issues. The steel of spark plugs and the aluminum of head cause a galvanic reaction (same as copper pipe and steel pipe in plumbing systems). This reaction will either cause the two to "weld" together or just "rust" together. When you try to remove the plugs they break or the threads strip. To make sure I don't encounter this issue, I just replace the plugs every 100K. For $24, it's really cheap insurance. Which of course is easier done on a 4 cyclinder front wheel drive car, than many other vehicles.

In Ford's case there must be more to the issue of things falling into the cyclinder to cause 3K to repair bill. Pulling and replacing a head to get something out of the cyclinder should be less than a days work at any reputable shop. My father pulled the head of his Chevy Cavalier to fix a burnt valve and had it apart and back together in a day in his driveway.

Matt Meiser
02-29-2012, 9:20 PM
It's apparently a 2-piece plug on the 3 valve 5.4 and it was gone by 2009, maybe earlier. The tool in the aftermarket is $70 so it's not terribly expensive as far as specialty tools go.

The 100k plug thing is a government mandate. From what Ive seen and heard from our mechanic it's stupid. When I changed the plugs at 97k on my wife's car the center electrode was practically gone. And of course the car ran much better and got better mileage. I'm doing my truck (2009 F150) around 50k and doing hers again at 147k. When I mentioned to our mechanic when I had her car in for a bad motor mount a few weeks ago he said they just don't last that long despite what the government says.

Tom Stenzel
02-29-2012, 9:22 PM
From my reading on Blueovalnews dot com, the original problem was the sparkplug theads extended into the combustion chamber. When the plug was removed the combustion residue on those exposed threads would strip out the aluminum threads in the head. Ford's response was to use plugs with a shorter thread that led to plugs blowing out of the head.

Not everyone has problems but they're common enough to be a concern.

-Tom S.

Kevin W Johnson
02-29-2012, 10:52 PM
From my reading on Blueovalnews dot com, the original problem was the sparkplug theads extended into the combustion chamber.-Tom S.

I can't help but wonder what Einstein was responsible for that. Anyone with combustion engine experience would immediately know this is a no no.

I'd also say that the old plugs coming out did enough damage to the threads that the new shorter thread plugs just didn't have enough material to hold on to.

In any case, anti-seize is your best friend, especially when you have aluminum heads.

Van Huskey
03-01-2012, 12:58 AM
It's apparently a 2-piece plug on the 3 valve 5.4 and it was gone by 2009, maybe earlier. The tool in the aftermarket is $70 so it's not terribly expensive as far as specialty tools go.

The 100k plug thing is a government mandate. From what Ive seen and heard from our mechanic it's stupid. When I changed the plugs at 97k on my wife's car the center electrode was practically gone. And of course the car ran much better and got better mileage. I'm doing my truck (2009 F150) around 50k and doing hers again at 147k. When I mentioned to our mechanic when I had her car in for a bad motor mount a few weeks ago he said they just don't last that long despite what the government says.

Funny enough I had a car that went 420,000 miles with the same sparkplugs that came in it new... I never changed the plugs because until the day it died (from getting rear ended not suicide) the mpg gallon stayed rock steady. It was a transverse 6 cylinder so the back plugs were a REAL pain to get to. Every 20K miles or so I would pull one of the easy to get to front plugs and never saw any significant wear, the gaps got a little wider certainly but it ran like a top until the end. It was a 96 vintage Chevy 3.1L. Never ran anything but dino oil at 5-6K change intervals, oil lose at change was MAYBE 1/8" in the dip stick. That particular one was a REALLY good engine that many people had lots of issues with.

Kevin W Johnson
03-01-2012, 1:18 AM
Funny enough I had a car that went 420,000 miles with the same sparkplugs that came in it new... I never changed the plugs because until the day it died (from getting rear ended not suicide) the mpg gallon stayed rock steady. It was a transverse 6 cylinder so the back plugs were a REAL pain to get to. Every 20K miles or so I would pull one of the easy to get to front plugs and never saw any significant wear, the gaps got a little wider certainly but it ran like a top until the end. It was a 96 vintage Chevy 3.1L. Never ran anything but dino oil at 5-6K change intervals, oil lose at change was MAYBE 1/8" in the dip stick. That particular one was a REALLY good engine that many people had lots of issues with.

AFAIK the engines were mechanically sound, it and it's 2.8L older sibling were hard on ignition modules. I personally replaced a few that dropped a just a couple cylinders, but the other 4 would still fire. That, and the cars they were in that I'm aware of with these motors, the alternators had shorter than average lives. It was mounted on the firewall side of the motor, and I suspect they lacked sufficient air flow to keep them as cool as they needed to be.

Van Huskey
03-01-2012, 4:57 AM
the alternators had shorter than average lives. It was mounted on the firewall side of the motor, and I suspect they lacked sufficient air flow to keep them as cool as they needed to be.

Yep, replaced one at 90k, another at 175k and then at around 230k when that one failed I found one I think called Iceberg or something like that and it lasted the remaining 190k. It needed a soft parts tranny overhaul around 250k, there was a radiator in there somewhere. Other than normal wear items I never had any other issues. The repairs were always cheap and quick.

Dave Lehnert
03-01-2012, 5:38 PM
Here is the story.

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/I-Team-2000-spark-plugs-what-some-call-design-flaw-Ford-calls-routine

Jeff Monson
03-01-2012, 5:57 PM
The problem with the design of the plug is it extends down into the cylinder too far and becomes covered in carbon. When you try to remove the plug, it snaps off the bottom portion that is built up with carbon. Once that happens you must break out the porcelian, tap interioir threads into the broken portion so you can attach a slide hammer to extract the culprit.

We do alot of tune ups on these models and warn the customer of the possible outcome. I'd say 1 out of 15 plugs will break. Not as bad as they make it out to be. I have never had to remove a cylinder head yet. If care is taken to make sure the engine is completely cold, and be care is taken when loosening the plug, you will have better success.

Its not the best design in the world, but its a 100k plug also. To me the reliability of the F150 and lack of common failures outweighs the spark plug issue. I'm sure there are owners that have spent the "several thousands" on a tune up that will disagree.

ray hampton
03-01-2012, 6:08 PM
Here is the story.

http://www.wcpo.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/I-Team-2000-spark-plugs-what-some-call-design-flaw-Ford-calls-routine

Dave, many thanks for the link

ray hampton
03-01-2012, 6:20 PM
The problem with the design of the plug is it extends down into the cylinder too far and becomes covered in carbon. When you try to remove the plug, it snaps off the bottom portion that is built up with carbon. Once that happens you must break out the porcelian, tap interioir threads into the broken portion so you can attach a slide hammer to extract the culprit.

We do alot of tune ups on these models and warn the customer of the possible outcome. I'd say 1 out of 15 plugs will break. Not as bad as they make it out to be. I have never had to remove a cylinder head yet. If care is taken to make sure the engine is completely cold, and be care is taken when loosening the plug, you will have better success.

Its not the best design in the world, but its a 100k plug also. To me the reliability of the F150 and lack of common failures outweighs the spark plug issue. I'm sure there are owners that have spent the "several thousands" on a tune up that will disagree.

this may not amount to be as bad as the news thought
spark plugs had always been a problem if the ratchet and socket applied too much side pressure

Bryan Morgan
03-01-2012, 9:36 PM
There aren't enough threads on my 4.6 so I'm told its quite easy to strip out the heads or not seat the plug properly causing more damage. This is on a Mustang though not an F150 (is the the same part? every other part seems to be the same...). Only reason I've been hesitant to replace them. I need to get in there and check them out though because I've got a weird missing idle problem and everything else seems to be working fine.

Dave Lehnert
03-01-2012, 9:45 PM
The problem with the design of the plug is it extends down into the cylinder too far and becomes covered in carbon. When you try to remove the plug, it snaps off the bottom portion that is built up with carbon. Once that happens you must break out the porcelian, tap interioir threads into the broken portion so you can attach a slide hammer to extract the culprit.

We do alot of tune ups on these models and warn the customer of the possible outcome. I'd say 1 out of 15 plugs will break. Not as bad as they make it out to be. I have never had to remove a cylinder head yet. If care is taken to make sure the engine is completely cold, and be care is taken when loosening the plug, you will have better success.

Its not the best design in the world, but its a 100k plug also. To me the reliability of the F150 and lack of common failures outweighs the spark plug issue. I'm sure there are owners that have spent the "several thousands" on a tune up that will disagree.

Ever have to replace an engine in a 97 F150 V6? I got caught with that bad engine.

Kevin W Johnson
03-01-2012, 10:29 PM
There aren't enough threads on my 4.6 so I'm told its quite easy to strip out the heads or not seat the plug properly causing more damage. This is on a Mustang though not an F150 (is the the same part? every other part seems to be the same...). Only reason I've been hesitant to replace them. I need to get in there and check them out though because I've got a weird missing idle problem and everything else seems to be working fine.

Is the problem stripping the threads removing the plugs? Its critical to always start the new plug by hand rather than with a wrench, and anti-seize is a must. You'll wanna resolve that miss ASAP, as it can damage the catalytic converter, big $$$$.

Kevin W Johnson
03-01-2012, 10:34 PM
this may not amount to be as bad as the news thought
spark plugs had always been a problem if the ratchet and socket applied too much side pressure


In most cases breaking the ceramic top portion of a spark plug isn't a big deal. On these Ford engines, it's the lower threaded portion that is breaking in two, leaving a portion deep in the spark plug hole in the head.

Jeff Monson
03-02-2012, 12:09 AM
There aren't enough threads on my 4.6 so I'm told its quite easy to strip out the heads or not seat the plug properly causing more damage. This is on a Mustang though not an F150 (is the the same part? every other part seems to be the same...). Only reason I've been hesitant to replace them. I need to get in there and check them out though because I've got a weird missing idle problem and everything else seems to be working fine.

Thats a whole different bird Bryan, the earlier 4.6 and 5.4 litre fords had very shallow thread depth, there were alot of cases of plugs blowing out of the head. I dont percieve this as an installation problem, just luck of the draw. I have seen plugs blow out of the head that were in there for over 100k, and some that blew out at 15k. There is a different repair procedure for this type of problem, we have a kit that installs a heavy duty heli-coil type insert into the head. I can do one in about 15 minutes (depending on the cylinder) it is a permanent repair. There again, for the amount of these engines on the road, compared to the ones that have problems.....yes it happens, not ALL the time.

Jeff Monson
03-02-2012, 12:12 AM
Ever have to replace an engine in a 97 F150 V6? I got caught with that bad engine.

No Dave I have not, I dont think its a bad engine, but you have every right to diasagree.

Bryan Morgan
03-02-2012, 6:03 PM
Thats a whole different bird Bryan, the earlier 4.6 and 5.4 litre fords had very shallow thread depth, there were alot of cases of plugs blowing out of the head. I dont percieve this as an installation problem, just luck of the draw. I have seen plugs blow out of the head that were in there for over 100k, and some that blew out at 15k. There is a different repair procedure for this type of problem, we have a kit that installs a heavy duty heli-coil type insert into the head. I can do one in about 15 minutes (depending on the cylinder) it is a permanent repair. There again, for the amount of these engines on the road, compared to the ones that have problems.....yes it happens, not ALL the time.

Hey thanks for the info! Are the heli coil kits available to the public?

ray hampton
03-02-2012, 6:43 PM
There aren't enough threads on my 4.6 so I'm told its quite easy to strip out the heads or not seat the plug properly causing more damage. This is on a Mustang though not an F150 (is the the same part? every other part seems to be the same...). Only reason I've been hesitant to replace them. I need to get in there and check them out though because I've got a weird missing idle problem and everything else seems to be working fine.

one trick that I use to install sparkplugs are to use a rubber hose that will hold the plug tight, you can feel the plug as it turn into the cylinder hole, of course you will had to turn it by hand for the best control

ray hampton
03-02-2012, 6:56 PM
In most cases breaking the ceramic top portion of a spark plug isn't a big deal. On these Ford engines, it's the lower threaded portion that is breaking in two, leaving a portion deep in the spark plug hole in the head.

I forgot how many times I broke plugs as I were removing them but when I broke one being install, I were told about one case of the mechanic breaking the plugs and had to pull the head in order to remove the remains of the plugs, this happen before 1978 so the mistake of the breaks are not new

Dave Lehnert
03-02-2012, 9:44 PM
No Dave I have not, I dont think its a bad engine, but you have every right to diasagree.

The ones that left the factory early in the year had the issue. When I called repair shops to get a price they did not even have to look it up. They knew the cost by heart. Every time I go to the auto parts store to get a filter or something they say "Put a new engine in it yet" I went to the Ford dealer to look at new trucks and soon as I opened my door the salesman said "Put a new engine in it yet" Went to the junk yard the other day to get a spare tire. The guy at the counter said they have calls all the time for 1997 V6 4.2L.

I had the coolant problem the day I drove it off the lot "NEW" Had it back to the dealer many times but nothing they did corrected it. I don't put a lot of miles on my truck so it took me 12 years to hit the 70K miles when they tend to go. To this day everyone I ask in the auto repair bizz knows of the problem except FORD service. They act like they never heard of it before. (Guess they should ask the sales man out front that asked me if I replaced the engine yet) My truck was never recalled.

Lady at work had ,I believe, the same year Toyoda truck that had the frame rust problem. Her truck was worn out but they just gave her $7,000 to buy it back. I love my Ford truck, May even buy a new one. But after this I will go and check out a Toyoda truck first and see what they have to offer.

http://www.complaints.com/directory/2004/january/30/23.htm

Dave Wagner
03-02-2012, 9:49 PM
I have an 2004 F150, but only 46K miles, I don't plan on checking them or replacing them anytime soon. I have heard that too and have read a lot about the plugs either breaking or when removing they break. Some say to work them back and forth slowly to clean the carbon off the threads.

My buddy's 2005 F150 about 80K miles, had one break off while driving and ripped up the cylinder, he already had his new 2010 F150 on order and was due in the following week. Unfortunately, they deducted like 3-4K off the trade in, since thats what it was going to cost to fix the motor....he was bummed, but loves his new truck. A mechanic there already had a 5.4L motor and bought it as is. :(

Jeff Monson
03-03-2012, 11:02 AM
Hey thanks for the info! Are the heli coil kits available to the public?

They sure are, OTC makes a kit to do the inserts, its a 300$ kit.

Greg Portland
03-05-2012, 5:01 PM
Jeff, is this the one? http://www.amazon.com/Time-Sert-Triton-Spark-Repair-5553/dp/B0038B325I

Jeff Monson
03-05-2012, 6:14 PM
Very similar to the one we have, ours came with a really nice video demonstrating proper use of the tool. Ours has a TDC indicator as this is very important when you are removing that much material from the cylinder head, (the shavings must be properly extracted). Let me do some looking for a site that carries the one we have, I like mine a little better than the one you have linked to and it was at least $75.00 less money.

Jeff Monson
03-06-2012, 11:12 AM
Jeff, is this the one? http://www.amazon.com/Time-Sert-Triton-Spark-Repair-5553/dp/B0038B325I

Greg, here is the one I recemmond http://www.amazon.com/Ford-Spark-Plug-Insert-Installer/dp/B0013HE2YO

Greg Portland
03-06-2012, 4:47 PM
Thanks Jeff!