Attaching faceframes to a built in

[Prashun Patel]

I am trying to plan out how to attach some cherry faceframes to a mudroom built-in unit I'm making.

The easiest for me would be to brad nail the frames to the carcasses. However, I'm nervous about trying to fill the holes. I'd use sawdust and shellac, but am afraid of how it'll look after a few years.

I contemplated a 23g pin nailer. However, the cheap ones seem only to shoot up to 1" without issue. Even if I splurged on a Cadex or Grex, I'm nervous that headless pins wouldn't have enough holding power.

Suggestions? Am I overthinking this? Please say yes, and that the 18ga brads'll be just fine!

[Marty Paulus]

Can you do pocket screws ala Kreg?

[Jerome Hanby]

Pocket screws were my first thought, too.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Pocket screws......

[Bob Wingard]

Use offset tongue & groove joinery such as that sold by Sommerfeld ... no mechanical fasteners needed ... just glue & clamp ... is also has the benefit of pulling everything into square. This is probably one of Sommerfeld's best bit sets available ... simple to setup ... easy to use ... foolproof ... used correctly, you should get a perfectly flush face frame to carcase fit every time.

[Prashun Patel]

The issue is that the faceframes are not one-per-carcass. I'd like to have solid stiles between each 'locker'. Therefore, pocket screwing from the outsides of the carcasses is tricky. Also, the space I'm working in is tight, so I have to put the backs on before. This will make clamping around the middle stiles difficult.

[Quinn McCarthy]

I just use finish nails from an air nailer. I have also used biscuits but a real PITa. Everything need to be aligned perfect.

[Jerome Hanby]

Maybe biscuits and some pin nails...

[joe milana]

Screw & bung 'em....a sign of craftsmanship in my book. Nails & putty....not so much.

[frank shic]

there is no easy solution if you want a large continuous face frame. the brads would be my choice. you can use the wax crazyons to fill in the holes to match afterwards.

[eric anton]

Is the carcass cherry as well? You could use glue and biscuits, then for clamping you could attach some temporary braces on the carcass walls to clamp against, at least then any nail holes you have to fill are on the carcass instead of the face.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Screw & bung 'em....a sign of craftsmanship in my book. Nails & putty....not so much.

Me: Hi, my name is Andy and I am ignorant...

Group: Hello Andy

Me: I do not know what it means to "bung" something. Looks to me like a "bung" is a cylinder that is drilled and threaded so that it can act like a nut. where does one place the bung and where does the screw go?

[Prashun Patel]

Andrew-
I think he means screw and PLUGS.

[joe milana]

Andy, It's simply a countersunk screw with a wooden plug covering it. Plugs can be cut from the face grain of scraps from your project. Screws are countersunk with a forstner bit. Tour any antique wooden boat & you are likely to see hundreds of them used. I've always liked the technique. Personal preference I guess.

225720





Me: Hi, my name is Andy and I am ignorant...

Group: Hello Andy

Me: I do not know what it means to "bung" something. Looks to me like a "bung" is a cylinder that is drilled and threaded so that it can act like a nut. where does one place the bung and where does the screw go?

[Jim Matthews]

Is this a production job, or something for your home?

Presuming the face frames will be affixed with glue, why not just hold them on temporarily with tape or face clamps?
if you're using pins for keeping the assembly straight, the heads could be nipped off, and driven into the "back" as opposed to face and the works rapped into place.

[Philip Berman]

I'm working on the same type of thing in that faceframes will be scribed to the wall and attached AFTER the carcase is in place. I'm planning on using glue and a couple of pins to hold them in place until the glue dries. Another thought I had was using hide glue which doesn't need clamping and dries as soon as it cools off. If the faceframe isn't that big you might be able to use hot hide glue.

[Ray Chalenski]

Not sure if it would work in your application, but I've used the Miller dowels in areas where I didn't want to see nail holes.They make cherry stepped dowels or maybe go with walnut as a contrast.

[Sam Murdoch]

If you own a biscuiter or a domino those are the best tools for this job - at least those are the tools that I use 99% of the time for attaching face frames to cabinetry. I definitely prefer the biscuit over the domino. The dominos are too exact whereas the biscuits have enough play to be more forgiving. Others run a slot in their cabinetry edges and a matching slot in their face frame to allow using a full length loose spline.

In the case of a face frame that has to be scribed to a wall (especially when fitted between 2 walls) I usually attach the entire face frame EXCEPT the scribe stile(s). That is fitted with biscuits in the shop but left loose until it is fitted to the wall. OFTEN there is room at the backside of the top and bottom rail to use a pocket screw to help pull the stile into position for final glue up. If the cabinet has a crown and/or a baseboard you can often add a few pocket screws through the face of the scribe vert into the top or bottom rail.

In the case of a face frame applied in the field after the cabinet is installed I will make up a clamp board. The clamp board is a properly sized board X whatever length I can use that has shelf pins set into the back of it. These shelf pins locate and hold the clamp board into the adjustable shelf holes in the cabinet and allow me to use a GENTLE clamping pressure to hold the face frame in place until the glue dries.

Otherwise :rolleyes:, I would use glue and 1-1/2" to 2" 18 gauge pins from my nail gun. For stain grade cabinetry I really try to AVOID using screws and bungs (plugs). I was indoctrinated to believe that "furniture pieces" do not show fastenings and that bungs are the same as showing the screw head. However that is exactly how we do 98% of hiding screws in boatbuilding (yacht construction too). So how bad can it be to use bungs? For paint grade cabinetry I would definitely consider GRK torque drive finish head screws and acxtually I use those guys for applying all kinds of paint grade trim.

My 2 ¢ for what it's worth. Sam

[mreza Salav]

A thin line of glue and a few pins (using pin nailer) to hold it in place should be enough.

[Todd Burch]

I haven't made anything nice enough yet to not warrant pneumatic nails. I typically use Elmer's Wood filler (light or dark, depending), and have found that it takes stain better when still damp.

When I can, I place nails specifically, so they will be under trim, on a dark spot on the wood, or at the change of color between early and late wood, or right up close to a pin knot.

I have a stained walnut built-in in my family room that would take you some time to pick out all the nail holes that were filled.

I think you are over thinking it. It's a mud room!

Todd

[frank shic]

...the next time you get dragged off by your wife to some high-end purse/clothing/department store take a close look at the wood fixtures and you'll notice plenty of brad holes that have been filled.

[Jim Becker]

Prashun, I will often use a few biscuits dry at the top of the carcass to help hold up the face frame during final assembly and then just use glue and 1 3/8" pins. I have had zero issue with shooting them with my Grex pinner. I shoot the pins at slight and varying angles and will sometimes use some painter's tape to help hold things up while I'm putting in the pins.

The issue with the brads is that they are going to be very visible when you are done. You may be able to fill the holes with some scrap cherry with a lot of tedious work, but any other kind of filler is going to stand out and even more so over time as the cherry darkens. The pins...they just disappear.

Here's an example of a face frames that were installed using the method I detailed above (upper cabinets):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/a-j-adopt/House/036.jpg

[frank shic]

how about shooting a close-up on one of those pins, jim? nice job btw!

[Andrew Joiner]

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?c=&p=32683&cat=1,41182

Looks like this would work. It says no longer available. You could grind a chisel to that shape and test it. You might have to make a little wood plane to hold it. I'd iron down the sliver with regular aliphatic resin glue.

I clamped all my furniture grade face frames. The "run of the mill" cabinets got nailed and glued.

[Andrew Joiner]

Wow, I just tried a regular 1/4" chisel on pine and walnut and it worked fine! You could easily hide a nail under the shaving and glue it down. I tried purpleheart and it was harder to get a consistent shaving to curl up ,but it could work.

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks everyone. I take all your points. Todd, I hear ya! I'm trying hard to listen to your voice of reason.

Jim, I remember yr a big fan of the pin nailers. It's just that it's a pricey investment to get a 'good' one that shoots > 1" pins.

I think I can attach all the middle stiles with pocketscrews. For the two on the very end, I can just clamp them. I'll pull the whole assembly away from the wall enough to allow this, and then slide it in place after.

[Jim Becker]

This is the one I believe I have, Prashun...yea not "cheap", but honestly, it's a very useful tool that I use a lot more than I ever imagined I would. (I also have an older Accuset that only shoots up to 3/4"--I keep it loaded with short pins for "jigging") If you want to take a field trip sometime, I'd be happy to demonstrate it to you.

http://www.amazon.com/Grex-P635-8-Inch-Length-Headless/dp/B000FP8NH2/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1330656210&sr=8-2

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41vyguACjYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

That said, between using a pocket screw where you can and clamps...and painter's tape...you should be able to get your glue installation done. I really do recommend you use a few biscuits or some other thing to help hold things level from the top while you futz around with the rest of the job. It's like having a third hand.

[Sam Murdoch]

This is what I use for trim stuff, over 10 years now. The lightweight compressor can pretty much only drive 18 gauge nails, (5/8" to 2") and crown staples or headless pins but that's all I need this to do. Plus it is very light, travels well, and can climb up on the counters with me when I am working on uppers. http://www.amazon.com/Senco-PC0947-FP18KIT-18-Gauge-Compressor/dp/B00008PWW9

[Prashun Patel]

I dado'd the face frame components about 1/8", so they should line up pretty well but still provide enough meat for the pscrew. Of course, since I'm saying it, I've just jinxed myself.

[Paul Johnstone]

You can nail it. that's a fine solution. I like it better than screws. You can use wax sticks or that Behlen melt in color sticks to cover the holes.

Another option is to lay the cabinet on it's back. Make the Face frame slightly wider. Glue the face frame on, with slight overlap on the left and right. I use two biscuits on one side for alignment. Use cauls to minimize the number of clamps needed. If the bottom of the cabient does not show, you can pocket screw the bottom shelf on to the face frame (fast and secure, saves clamps and will not be seen).

I glue all my face frames now. It's nice not to have to fill in the nail holes, but I still think glueing and nailing with 18 guage nail is a perfectly acceptable way to do it. I would not use pin nails. Sometimes the face frame is not perfectly flat, especially if it is large.
I don't think pin nails have enough holding power to hold it on until the glue dries (particularly headless pins).

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks everyone. I just pulled the trigger (pin - er - pun intended) on a 23ga pin nailer. I got the PC model that shoots 1 3/8". I know it's not a Grex, but we'll see how it goes. I've been happy with my PC 18ga nailer; for occasional use, I'm hoping it suffices.

[frank shic]

they work great on raised panel doors as well and free up your clamps.

[Prashun Patel]

Update:

I attached the faceframes this weekend with the pin nailer. I'm fairly pleased. However, the PC138 is designed to drive the pins flush - not below flush. If you remove the rubber tip, and grind the nose down 1/32" you can get it to drive below flush. However, removing that protective tip means you then get tiny dents upon impact. So, it's a trade-off. Personally, I preferred to put the tip back on and drive the pins flush.

One more caveat to potential purchasers: this nailer doesn't have a safety nose; the nose does not need to be in contact with the surface to fire. Instead there are 2 triggers. The motion was awkward at first, causing more than one misfire before the nose was flush. This resulted in a partially sunk pin that was a pain to remove without marring the wood. I even mistakenly fired one into the air! I found this feature dangerous.

In retrospect, i believe i used too many pins. I glued the frames, so the pins are really only needed for temporary holding. The nice thing is that by cleverly pinning in darker portions of the grain patterns, or in black defects, many of the pins are difficult to see.

Making a single, large faceframe is not something I'll do next time. From now on I'll make individual boxed frames and will just screw them together. Live and learn.

[Matt Roth]

I'd love to see pics!

[frank shic]

yup, the double trigger is annoying plus somewhat unnecessary i mean even if i do shoot myself, it's a small enough pin to pull out!

[Jon Middleton]

There was an article in, "Fine Woodworking", ​Feb 2011, pg 36, on making your face frames first, then using dado joinery for the sides, shelves, bottom, etc. I'm using that method now and it is gong well.

[Jerome Hanby]

There was an article in, "Fine Woodworking", ​Feb 2011, pg 36, on making your face frames first, then using dado joinery for the sides, shelves, bottom, etc. I'm using that method now and it is gong well.

I found and read through that article. Looks like more work, but could be worth the effort. are you finding that things square up better/easier?

[Prashun Patel]

Can you tell me the title of the article so I can search it online?
- p

[Sean Hughto]

I've used strips/blocks of wood from the back. Imagine a strip 3/4 x 3/4" - you can screw from one side of the strip into the box and from the adjacent side of the strip into the frame. It's inside, so no one sees - or you can plug the screw holes - or fill and paint the whole inside.

[Jon Middleton]

It's easy to glue up that way because the face frame holds the pieces when you clamp:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af326/paddler213/Woodworking/IMG_2210.jpg

It seems to help square things, too, assuming your frame is square to begin with. You can assure the bottom shelf is flush with the faceframe by taking the measurement off the frame for the dados in the cabinet sides:

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af326/paddler213/Woodworking/IMG_2211.jpg

Adding fixed shelves is easy, also.

The article is titled, "Do an About-Face on Cabinets", and was written by Steve Latta. I used mortise and loose tenon joinery for the face frame. I have a biscuit and a Kreg jig for pocket screws, but have never used either one. Old-fashioned, and I'm just a hobbiest, so time isn't money.

[Sam Murdoch]

That's what these guys are doing http://www.cabinotch.com/?utm_source=Sales+Contacts+by+Salesman&utm_campaign=c228e14034-Cabinotch_February2_17_2012&utm_medium=email

Down side is that each cabinet has its own face frame rather than one ff for a gang of cabinets. The former technique (as in the link) looks very busy to me and as if the cabinetry layout wasn't thought out very carefully. Nonetheless, it is certainly a viable construction method.

[Prashun Patel]

Here are some progress pictures. The first pic shows how the PC138 fires with the nose removed. It countersinks but dents. The second shows the with the nose back on (sorry for the flash!).

From a distance, you can't see the holes in either case, but the countersunk ones are a little more visible IMHO. From now on I'll just shoot them flush and let it be.

The carcass is 3/4 cherry ply. The backs are only 1/4" birch. That's the reason I used a cleat for the coat hook.

It's finished with a coat of Sealcoat, then several coats of Waterlox Original SF, wiped on.

I still need to put the crown on.

[Todd Burch]

Looks good. Sure is shiny!

I think I would have opted for a built-in with side tolerances that close.

[Prashun Patel]

Waterlox 'deglosses' after a few weeks pretty well. I'm not a fan of high gloss either.

A better man might have opted for a built in, but I did it this way bkz it was a *little* faster and simpler for me to do. Unfortunately, my work and family schedule often forces me to do things in the quickest - not best way...

[frank shic]

i like built-ins as well but they are a pain to fit compared to stand-alone furniture. anyways as long as the wife is happy that's all that matters! great job on that mud room cabinet :)

[mreza Salav]

Looks really good, and it's in a mud room!!

[Rod Sheridan]

Very nice Prashun.............regards, Rod.

[Will Blick]

If that is your "mud" room, can we pls see pix of your kitchen? Sheeeesh, you sure have an eye for the application of fine woodworking.... superb work, thx for sharing pix. The Grex 23g pinners, just for those who may be in the market, bury the head just enough to putty if you desire....but in reality, unless you have young persons eyes and view from 6-10", hard to see. As for 23g pins not on large work.... I find the longer pins have tremendous holding power...but nothing will stop warpage from slowing pulling them apart, in which case, glue is the next line of defense...but if warping pull hard enuff, the glue can fail as well.... warping occurs 24/7 on a piece, slowly breaking down the glue bond. The solution is, make smaller face frames when you can...

[Sam Murdoch]

Nicely done, that's a great example of craftsmanship and design for a well used space. Now just get the kids to put their stuff away in those nice cubbies right? :D

[Prashun Patel]

Here are the finished pix with the crown installed.
For other first-time casegood builders, I had a devil of a time fitting the crown. I ended up installing an angled batten on the tops of the cabs, and then attaching the crown to these via pocketscrews.

Next time, I will assemble the crown/battens on the ground, complete with mitered returns, and then attach the whole assembly to the top of the cabinet.

I really like how the finish came out on this (the flash makes it look a little more garish than in person).

I see a lot of people asking how to pop the curl in cherry or accellerate its darkening.

My go-to recipe for finishing cherry is heretofore this:

Sand to 400.
1-2 coats of Zinsser Sealcoat wiped on. Wipe on enough coats until you start to see runs. Then STOP.
Sand with 400
Wipe on Waterlox original Sealer Finish. 3 coats
Sand with 400
Wipe on 2 more coats of Waterlox
Sand with 600
Wipe on 1 more coat

For now, this is the best balance between ease of application and bringing out the best in Cherry... YMMV!!!

[Kevin Stricker]

One comment, from the close up of the nail you used it appears you are nailing with the gun held parallel to the workpiece. There are two reasons to hold the gun perpendicular: one is that the gun always leaves a wider hole than tall, so perpendicular will always result in a smaller hole as you are severing fewer fibers. Seconds is that pins, unlike nails are only ground on the sides so will tend to follow the grain to the left or right. So you will have much fewer nail blowouts with the gun held perpendicular.

If your pinner is not sinking your pins below the surface you should return it. To me a pinner that doesn't sink pins is next to useless as you using a nail set will end up making a hole as big as an 18 ga nail. Also pins almost always bend when being set, leading to a bigger hole.

Regarding filling holes, for pins I always use thick 2p10 then sand when still wet. It will leave a darker spot, but the surface will be smooth so you will not see the pin holes with a raking light.

[Prashun Patel]

Great advice! Thanks! Noted for next time.

[Brett Bobo]

Prashun,
Great job on the built-in and you always do so well at finishing cherry! What steered you away from spraying considering the size of the project? Did you pre-finish the parts? Did you mill up the crown molding? Is there a profile to it or beveled edges at 45 degrees? How are your shelves attached to the carcases? Congrats on not only a good-looking piece but very functional as well!

[Will Blick]

2p10 ?? pls splain :-)

[Prashun Patel]

THanks for the interest, Brett. I wanted to use Waterlox, and I'm not set up to spray that. It takes longer to wipe it on, but with patience, it's just the easiest way for me.

I prefinished everything. The shelves are dado'd into the carcass, so it was easy to avoid the glue areas.
Yes, I milled the crown molding out of 1x stock. The corners are simply beveled at 45, and then backbeveled at 45.

One other shortcut I took on this first project is the edge treatments. I beveled the face frame components, but stopped short about 2" from each end. This avoided me having to deal with mitering the corners, or fixing the rounded edges from a router bit on inside corners.

I definitely want to try my hand at beaded face frames and frame/panel doors in the future. Trying to convince my wife to replace our kitchen cabs so I can buy a router table or shaper even...

[frank shic]

prashun, i highly recommend the kreg beaded face frame kit if you want to venture into beaded face frames in the near future

[Prashun Patel]

I am on yr wavelength, Frank. Stalkin' for a used one...tell me when u get bored o' yrs...;)

[frank shic]

lol put it on the birthday/christmas wishlist - you won't be disappointed!

[Jim Becker]

Really nice!

[Ed Edwards]

I just finished an 11' build-in, glued and pinned the face frames with the Grex with 1 3/8" pins. I held the pinner at an angle to the face, hid the pins better as mentioned above and I was taught the angled pin (nail) creates a better grip
Ed