Need advice on filing my saws (rip vs crosscut)

[Dustin Keys]

I've been rummaging around for some time now trying to put together a decent set of hand tools to work with. I've managed to get a good start on the saws, but I'm running out of steam (with the exception of the small back saw I just found last weekend, I haven't found much in a very long time). I have now bought the proper files for each saw as well as a saw set, and I built a saw vise. Now I just need to sharpen them, but that's where I need a little help. I'm not sure whether rip or crosscut filing would be best for the different saws. Here's what I've got:

Sears Craftsman 16” 11 ppi back saw
Disston 26” 9 ppi saw
Warranted Superior 12" 14 ppi back saw
Bow Saw - I'm going to build this saw. I have purchased a Putsch 9 tpi blade to use. The blade is currently 27.5" long, but I intend to cut it down to around 18".

My original plan was to file them all as rip, since a rip filed saw can crosscut as well. Before I did that, I wanted to ask here and see if that was really the best thing to do. All of these saws were very rough when I found them, so I've spent a lot of time cleaning them up and getting them ready to work again. Once they're sharp, they should be good tools.

I still plan to use my circular saw with a fence for breaking stock down at this time. I've not come across good deals on saws for rough work yet, and the circular saw seems to do the job pretty well. I'm still looking for more saws to fill things out, but like I said it's starting to dry up. The saws listed above may be all I have for a good while.

[Chris Griggs]

You don't need to, but I think you will be happier if you file you your 9ppi saw xcut, and then try and find a 5-6 ppi saw for ripping.

[Chris Vandiver]

Like Chris says, I'd file the 9ppi crosscut along with the 14ppi back saw. File the others rip and pick up a 4-5 1/2ppi rip saw(26"-28") for heavy ripping.

[Jim Koepke]

A rip saw will cut across the grain, but it isn't always pretty.

In some woods it will leave a lot of blow out or splintering at the cut.

Another consideration is what kind of work you do.

If you do a lot of lap joints of mortise and tenon work, you may want your longer back saw filed rip, maybe with just a little fleam. There have been some discussions of "combination filing" here and some new saws are made that way.

I have my long back saw filed for crosscuts and it leaves a smooth cut. It is mostly used with a bench hook.

If you do a lot of ripping of long stock, then you may want to file the 26" Disston to rip. I have one saw that is 10 ppi and filed rip. It is slow in long work. I have found a 6 ppi filing to be just about right for me when ripping long pieces. It is a bit slower, but it doesn't wear me out like my 4 ppi saw will.

My thoughts on what you have:

Sears Craftsman 16” 11 ppi back saw - I would file and use this one for crosscuts.

Disston 26” 9 ppi saw - This would also be a good candidate for crosscuts and like Chris mentioned look for something with a few less teeth for a good rip saw. If you do a lot of short ripping, then this might be a good candidate for that.

Warranted Superior 12" 14 ppi back saw - This sounds like a good candidate for a rip saw for smaller joinery.

Now if you are not now totally confused, then you just don't understand the situation.

(--paraphrasing Edward Murrow)

jtk

[Jacob Nothstine]

Here is a $10.00 saw that works great for rough work. Seen an article by Chris Schwarz and pick one up.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/another-solid-10-and-change-saw

[Robert Eiffert]

I'm not sure whether rip or crosscut filing would be best for the different saws. Here's what I've got:

Sears Craftsman 16” 11 ppi back saw
Disston 26” 9 ppi saw
Warranted Superior 12" 14 ppi back saw
Bow Saw - I'm going to build this saw. I have purchased a Putsch 9 tpi blade to use. The blade is currently 27.5" long, but I intend to cut it down to around 18".


Of course ' it depends' .....
I do more mortice & tenon or slip /bridle joints than dovetailing and use mostly a 14" 11pt filed rip and a 12" 11 pt filed xc.

Like you, my saw choices were more based on what I found. With 34" sleeves, I could probably use longer saws, but for the stuff I like to work on, these are OK for weight & handling.

Vintagesaws has 'filing kits' - a wide choice of saws, with the right file, ready to sharpen.

[Jim Matthews]

There are people on this board with LOADS more experience than me.

That said, if you successfully joint these saws so the teeth all cut to the same depth, why not try filing them all ripcut?

If you find that there is an advantage to having crosscut filing, that would be easy to add (converting rip filed to cross filed) fleam.
It's not easy to convert crosscut teeth to rip cut teeth. I would suggest you experiment with the set of the teeth, depending on the stock.

The earlier warnings about spelching in crosscut are valid -- if you score your cutline heavily, or start the cut with a chisel notch, that can be reduced.

jim
wpt, ma

[Jim Koepke]

The earlier warnings about spelching in crosscut are valid -- if you score your cutline heavily, or start the cut with a chisel notch, that can be reduced.

This is good advice. The only draw back on this is when pieces on both sides of the cut are going to be used. An alternative is to scribe two lines around the work and saw between them.

If only one side of the cut is to be used, then roughness on the waste side is not a bother.

jtk

[Dustin Keys]

A rip saw will cut across the grain, but it isn't always pretty.

In some woods it will leave a lot of blow out or splintering at the cut.

Another consideration is what kind of work you do.

If you do a lot of lap joints of mortise and tenon work, you may want your longer back saw filed rip, maybe with just a little fleam. There have been some discussions of "combination filing" here and some new saws are made that way.

I have my long back saw filed for crosscuts and it leaves a smooth cut. It is mostly used with a bench hook.

If you do a lot of ripping of long stock, then you may want to file the 26" Disston to rip. I have one saw that is 10 ppi and filed rip. It is slow in long work. I have found a 6 ppi filing to be just about right for me when ripping long pieces. It is a bit slower, but it doesn't wear me out like my 4 ppi saw will.

My thoughts on what you have:

Sears Craftsman 16” 11 ppi back saw - I would file and use this one for crosscuts.

Disston 26” 9 ppi saw - This would also be a good candidate for crosscuts and like Chris mentioned look for something with a few less teeth for a good rip saw. If you do a lot of short ripping, then this might be a good candidate for that.

Warranted Superior 12" 14 ppi back saw - This sounds like a good candidate for a rip saw for smaller joinery.

Now if you are not now totally confused, then you just don't understand the situation.

(--paraphrasing Edward Murrow)

jtk

This actually makes good sense to me. I'm glad I asked the question now. I intended to rip file the bow saw and cut it to around 18", so that would give me a little longer saw to use for rip work as well and fill out my saw collection a bit. I didn't realize the cut would be that ugly if I used a rip saw for cross cutting. While I don't mind deep marking, chiseling a trench, etc when it's necessary, I would hate to have to do it very often if I could avoid it by filing these differently the first time.

I've seen the Schwarz demo of the $10 Stanley. I may pick one up if I feel the need for another saw for rough cutting.

I looked at those "filing kits," but they're $70! I didn't pay more than $5 for any of these saws, so I really don't want to spend $70 on a saw that needs work. Upon closer inspection of those saws, I can pick up similar ones (some teeth and rust issues) locally for under $20 pretty easily. I have been steering clear of panel saws though because I don't know how much need I really have for them, and they're often marked a bit pricier than what I want to pay. If they're straight and not pitted for $5 or less I buy them, but as a rule I generally haven't spent more than that on old tools in need of work (planes being the exception). I did find a lovely early Disston 6 ppi rip saw that may be calling my name a little while back. They were asking $35 though, and that is money that so far I have decided would best be used for other things.

Thanks for the help guys!

[Mike Holbrook]

First I would go to the Tools For Working Wood site, the saws section- 14" Sash Saw. Look for the large blue heading The Essential Guide to Saw Tooth Design. This is a chart that will familiarize you with saw part/teeth terms. You may want to keep a copy around as a reference for these terms when you get confused. Armed with this information you should be able to determine what type of tooth pattern the saws you have came with, rip or crosscut. It will be easier to file each saw in the same way it came. Changing the style tooth pattern on a saw is a much harder job than just sharpening and occasionally jointing. Although rip teeth are the easiest to sharpen and arguably the most versatile, I think you will find yourself using a crosscut saw more often. Long rips are just much faster with a powered saw like a bandsaw. In the case of joinery saws or backsaws you may find more use for a rip or combination tooth pattern. The most common auction saws are 4-6 ppi rip saws because these were the most popular saw for construction work before powered saws took over. You will appreciate larger teeth in a rip saw. I have bought three saws at auction in the last couple weeks, $3-$13 each + shipping, nice saws too. A little patience and you can pick up nice old saws cheap.

I would also recommend a video on sharpening saws. I have two but like Herman's the best. You can buy a DVD or just pay a feee to watch the video on Popular Woodworkings, Shop Class site. Both are available at the Popular Woodworking site. You may also want to consider making a saw bench. This is a bench for sawing on not saw horses although the two are not entirely dissimilar. Chris Schwarz offers some free plans on his site & Blog, or just Google it.

[Jim Matthews]

This is good advice. The only draw back on this is when pieces on both sides of the cut are going to be used.jtk

I was trained to score all the way around. I try to crosscut nearly chest height, so I can see how things are going. I've found that a heavy score line and sharp saw reduce blowout.
I have tried what the original poster mentioned, using a bowsaw filed rip to crosscut. It feels unsteady to me. I like the bowsaw for long rips (more than 36") but prefer a smaller saw for crosscutting.

In any case, if the teeth are sharp and the points fall along an even line (or breasted arc) it should do the job.
If the OP has lots of waste on the backside of cuts from using only a rip filing, it's easy to change the tooth profile.

jim
wpt, ma

[Dustin Keys]

First I would go to the Tools For Working Wood site, the saws section- 14" Sash Saw. Look for the large blue heading The Essential Guide to Saw Tooth Design. This is a chart that will familiarize you with saw part/teeth terms. You may want to keep a copy around as a reference for these terms when you get confused. Armed with this information you should be able to determine what type of tooth pattern the saws you have came with, rip or crosscut. It will be easier to file each saw in the same way it came. Changing the style tooth pattern on a saw is a much harder job than just sharpening and occasionally jointing. Although rip teeth are the easiest to sharpen and arguably the most versatile, I think you will find yourself using a crosscut saw more often. Long rips are just much faster with a powered saw like a bandsaw. In the case of joinery saws or backsaws you may find more use for a rip or combination tooth pattern. The most common auction saws are 4-6 ppi rip saws because these were the most popular saw for construction work before powered saws took over. You will appreciate larger teeth in a rip saw. I have bought three saws at auction in the last couple weeks, $3-$13 each + shipping, nice saws too. A little patience and you can pick up nice old saws cheap.

I would also recommend a video on sharpening saws. I have two but like Herman's the best. You can buy a DVD or just pay a feee to watch the video on Popular Woodworkings, Shop Class site. Both are available at the Popular Woodworking site. You may also want to consider making a saw bench. This is a bench for sawing on not saw horses although the two are not entirely dissimilar. Chris Schwarz offers some free plans on his site & Blog, or just Google it.

That TFWW chart is really, really helpful! I've read Bob Smalser's article on filing several times now as well as a few others, but being able to visualize it all on that chart makes things a lot easier. I printed it out and we'll keep it handy.

My plan for changing the tooth pattern was to remove the saw's set, joint it fairly deeply, and then shape and sharpen it as I want it to be. While that will take some time and might not be a lot of fun, it can't really be much harder than that can it as long as I keep the pitch the same?

I've avoided online auctions for saws as I like to inspect them myself. There are enough problems that are difficult for me to spot already with the tool in my hand. Trying to evaluate them in pictures just struck me as a way to waste a lot of money on tools with problems I can't fix and wasn't knowledgable enough to spot in the pictures online.

D