Shelves for built-ins -

[Philip Berman]

Hi -

I'm in the final design stage of a pair of built-ins to flank a fireplace. I'm using 3/4" walnut ply for the case and walnut lumber for the faceframe. I need some amount of adjustability for the shelves, can't stand the look of rows of holes for shelf pins, and may want to switch out the shelves from walnut to glass. I was originally going to go with those ladder-type thingies used in older casework (because to my eye they blend into the sides better than little black holes lined up in rows) but don't know whether or not one can use them for glass shelves. My concern with the glass is that the corners of the shelves would need to be notched to accommodate the ladders and I don't know if that can be done or at least done at reasonable cost. The actual shelves will have a span of approx. 32". Anyone have any thoughts on this and/or alternate suggestions for accomplishing the following:

No Ikea-like rows of holes
Adjustability for variable spacing of shelves
Can accommodate either glass or wood shelf material.


Attached is the model of where I'm heading on this.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Philip225593

[Rich Engelhardt]

You can put the ladder bracket in a dado & eliminate the need to notch anything.

[Craig Michael]

The ladder brackets are maybe 1/4" or so if i remember correctly. To me the are much more visiblr than holes. Use 5mm, they are quite a bit smaller than 1/4". Also, you don't need full rows of holes. Where ever yoy want your shelves, make a hole or two above and below. Shelves are always at the same general level, + or - a bit.

[Prashun Patel]

Consider if you really need adjustability. If not, you can use shelf pins at a fixed location.

Also, note that even if you need adjustability, you will unlikely need holes all up and down the uprights. Usually a series of 3 holes provides more than enough adjustability. Last, there are shelf pin collars (from Rockler et al) that dress up the holes. They're available in finishes that match your other hardware, so it looks a little 'classier'.

[Sam Murdoch]

I don't have a clever solution but to add to the discussion I typically just have 2 or 3 holes per shelf rather than full height rows. Like you I hate the look of all those useless holes. The shelf pin collars (called grommets) that Prashun mentioned add a lot of class to a job too.

Here is an example :

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[Philip Berman]

Thank you for the suggestions. I was going to do fixed shelves, spaced 12" apart, until I realized that one of my rear surround speakers has to live on a shelf until I have such occasion to rip out the walls for a better solution. At least I realized it BEFORE I built this thing. I was kind of amped on not having holes or hardware showing, so now that I have to go in another direction I'm fighting myself on this. Especially since I did a bunch of reading about the Doric order and used those proportions in this design. I'm pretty sure the grommets are Corinthian :-)

[Jamie Buxton]

One thing to remember about those columns of holes in walnut-veneer plywood is that the holes are not black. They are white. You're looking at the plywood's core. I can't stand them. I also don't like the added color of the metal liners that Prashun mentioned. Instead, I inlay a strip of lumber where the column is going to get bored. The strip is the same species as the veneer. Then when you bore the holes, the insides are the right color.

[Philip Berman]

Thanks Jamie. I ordered some grommets and will try removing the lacquer and oxidizing the brass to darken it. Are you able to match the inlay well enough that it blends? My lumber andthe ply are quite dissimilar, hoping to even things out with toner and/or dye. Planning on garnet shellac finish which is just beautiful on the walnut.

Philip

[Sam Murdoch]

I found that merely soaking the brass pins and grommets in ammonia gives them a nice dark antique look.
You, of course, can buy them in different metals or colors.

[Jamie Buxton]

Thanks Jamie. I ordered some grommets and will try removing the lacquer and oxidizing the brass to darken it. Are you able to match the inlay well enough that it blends? My lumber andthe ply are quite dissimilar, hoping to even things out with toner and/or dye. Planning on garnet shellac finish which is just beautiful on the walnut.

Philip

Generally the lumber looks close enough to the veneer that it is okay. In some species the match is better than in others. Remember that the strip is on a side wall inside the cabinet. Close is good enough. Or maybe a better way to put it is that close is way better than the white plywood core.

[Philip Berman]

In this design, the rails are rather narrow (1 1/2"), so the sides are actually quite exposed. Have you ever tried coloring the holes to darken them? Of course, matching a nice dark color is great until the walnut lightens on its own, in which case you'd then be left with dark holes on a light-ish veneer. I'm now leaning in the direction of compromising the surround-sound rather than my bookcases and going back to fixed shelves. Afterall, the bookcases will, in all likelihood, be there longer than my theatre system or probably me, for that matter. I know this is going to sound absurd, but perhaps I can just drill the holes on an as-needed basis. Set the shelves as I need them initially during construction, and then if something changes just drill 4 more holes if/when/where needed. If I keep the back row set far enough away from the back of the cabinet I think I can get in there with my small cordless, and just make a drilling jig to make sure they're at the same height. If my first set of holes is accurate, using them to register off of should result an accurate set of second holes. Maybe even plug the old holes, making a strip of plugs and finishing them at the same time as I make the cabinets. Pop out four and stick 'em in the old holes.

[Jamie Buxton]

... Have you ever tried coloring the holes to darken them?...

Yes, the first time I encountered the problem. It is a big pain. You want to color the nearly-white core dark enough that it doesn't stick out against a darkish veneer. That means you need a rather dark stain. You need to get the stain inside the holes, but not get any on the surface. This is really really difficult. Inlaying the hardwood strip is much easier.

[Philip Berman]

Knowing in advance what lurks inside the hole, I'd use masking tape before even drilling out the holes, which would make controlling the stain a bit easier. I'm really glad you mentioned this whole thing - I have the ply sitting in the garage, uncut, and presumed that because it's veneer-core that it would be walnut veneer through and through. Now I have to go take a look at the edges and see what it really is. Of course, going by cost alone one would presume there'd be gold in there :-)

[Paul Symchych]

Use a Q-tip for the stain.

[Peter Stahl]

You could do something like in the picture attached. This picture is from Woodcraft, the are Sawtooth Shelf Supports. I've seen cabinets with 1/2 rounds cut instead of the sawtooth. Each support piece has rounded ends. Do a Google search for "Sawtooth Shelf Support".

[Peter Stahl]

I stumbled across this, the round ones I was talking about in a previous post. The person that made them used 3/4" X 5" stock and I'm guessing they drilled 1-1/2" holes then cut it in half. See the attached drawing.

[Kevin Groenke]

I used quarter round "ladder type" brackets on a fireplace surround.

I used an old craftsman molding cutter head in a tablesaw to cut the quarter rounds in a wide board with an indexing pin to control height, then ripped the the strips to width.

Why did I use birch in a dark stained oak cabinet?... I have no idea: it's not as noticeable as in the flash photo (I was surprised to see it myself, there are sliding glass paneled doors that hide most of the sidewall of the cabinet - and a bunch of art pottery) I would probably use oak if I did it again.

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-kg

[Peter Stahl]

Nice brackets Kevin. Looks like a cross between the Sawtooth and the 1/2 round.

[Philip Berman]

RE: 'ladder brackets' or 'sawtooth standards' - that was where I was originally headed. To my eye, the [matching] walnut on the interior is preferable to looking at unused holes. My concern with this is if I decide to swap out the wood shelves for glass - in order for the brackets to work the glass would need to be notched to go around the standards. Glass is expensive as it is, does anyone know if having shelves made with those notches will make it unreasonably expensive?

[Peter Stahl]

You could drill 2 holes in each bracket for shelf supports. The glass would also hold the supports in place.

[Philip Berman]

Brilliant, thank you.

[Greg Portland]

Yes, the first time I encountered the problem. It is a big pain. You want to color the nearly-white core dark enough that it doesn't stick out against a darkish veneer. That means you need a rather dark stain. You need to get the stain inside the holes, but not get any on the surface. This is really really difficult. Inlaying the hardwood strip is much easier.
An easy way to do this is with water based stain. Pre-finish your boards (keep glue edges clean) and then use a Q-tip to stain the hole. Quickly wipe up any excess (it won't go through the finish on the board face) and you've got a cleanly stained hole. Pre finishing the board is also easier (flat pieces versus fully assembled). I used black stain to color the interior of the walnut ply.

[Philip Berman]

our friends at LeeValley have 'dark oxide' 5mm sleeves/pins which I've just ordered. the sleeves will take care of the color difference, the 'dark oxide' should make them fairly invisible, and I went with 5mm for the same purpose. I made a drilling guide (really just a piece of wood with a hole in it and a couple of 1/4" pieces of dowel to register the placement horizontally) which I tested on another cabinet and know that I can drill additional holes if needed sometime down the road.

Thank you everyone for your input.

Philip