Gramercy Bow Saw Kit

[lowell holmes]

Those of you that built this kit, How did you drill the holes for the brass pins, egg beater or brace and bit?What did you do to assure proper alignmnet of the holes and was it successful?Did you bed the pins in the knobs with epoxy?What kind of cord did you use?I will appreciate any input. :):)

[Chris Griggs]

I used a brace with a 1/4" auger bit.

I used a marking gauge to mark the approximate center point, on BOTH side of the workpiece so that I had a mark the same distance up and same distance in on each face.

I made two of these kits. On the first kit I did few practice holes with a couple of squares set up and once I felt confident I driledl straight through. The mark on the exit side helped me confirm that I had drill mostly straight just as the lead screw was poking through. I was a little off but that didn't affect performance.

On the second kit, I drilled half way in from both sides. This ensured that both sides of the hole where perfectly located, but it created a tight spot in the center of the hole where the things hadn't lined up perfectly. However, this turned out to be a good thing because the it made for a tight spot in the center of the hole that held the pin tighter. If things are too tight/off where the holes meet up you can just run a bit up and down in there a little to clear out some of the extra material inside the hole - that's what I did. A small chains saw file would probably have worked better.

Both methods (boring from one side and boring from both work), but I think I like the latter better because of the fact any error creates a tight spot that can than be opened up to just barely as loose as you need it.

Yes, epoxy for the pins.

Used thin wax coated twine for the cord and also tried slightly heavier hay bale twine. The thinner waxed twine is a bit nicer looking, but it snaps too easily if you overtighten. I think they reccommend using braided fishing line - I'll probably order some of that one of these days.

[Mike Brady]

If any of you have figured a way to stop the handles on this saw from turning so easily and twisting the blade, please let me know here. I have tried leather washers between the handles and the frame to add some friction, but the result has been that I never use this saw because the blade twisting is just aggrevating. I suspect that the brass pins are too small for this application and that they should have been tapered so they would self-tighten.

[Salem Ganzhorn]

I drilled on a drill press before shaping the arms :).

I also used epoxy to fix the pins in the handles.

I used braided fishing line. 50lb test, a couple loops of it. And I still managed to snap the line after about 8 months!
http://photos.ganzhorn.org/album842
Salem

[lowell holmes]

Salem,

I hope my saw turns out half as nice as yours.

On the matter of bits, I have a 1971 booklet that came with the box of Irwin auger bits. The bits were my Father's.

The booklet states that "All auger bits, except those made especially for dowelling work, are ground approximately 1/64" oversize.
This is done so that holes bored for bolts, pipe, cable, etc. can be bored with the same size bit (8/16" hole for a 1/2" bolt) and a snug fit will result."

Since some of you using auger bits have loose fitting pins, I think I will experiment with drill bits in my egg beater drill before drilling the holes.
I might even (horrors) use the drill press.

Thanks for responding.

Now I need to go look at that piece of curly maple I have been saving for something special. It is a remnant from a rocking chair I built.

[Joel Moskowitz]

If any of you have figured a way to stop the handles on this saw from turning so easily and twisting the blade, please let me know here. I have tried leather washers between the handles and the frame to add some friction, but the result has been that I never use this saw because the blade twisting is just aggrevating. I suspect that the brass pins are too small for this application and that they should have been tapered so they would self-tighten.

1 - a little rosin should tighten things up.
2 - you want the blade and turn fairly freely in the cheeks. When you hold the saw the handle gets buried in your palm and the cheek is either leaning on the outstretched forefinger, or you pinch the cheek between thumb and forfinger. It's really important to be able to move the blade without untensioning the saw because when you want smooth curves you can't stop sawing and change tension
3 - a tapered pin will give a locking taper which makes the saw hard to twist. Also the taper can easily crack your frame. Historical pins are straight - except for the low end one. - simply because before the invention of the engine lathe cheaper pins were just cast and the higher end ones were cast and then turned on lathes with hand held tools. Once engine lathes were common pins are all straight.

[Mike Holbrook]

There is an old school toggle they use at Wood Joy Tools with their bowsaws that is reputed to help with the line getting hard to tighten then breaking where it bunches up. They use a two piece toggle. There is a wide piece of wood in the string with a slot in it for the winding arm. The two pieces serves two purposes 1) the wide piece in the string keeps the center of the line from bunching up, reducing the pressure on the line and the amount of force needed to tension the saw. 2) the winding toggle slides in & out of the piece in the string, allowing the toggle to be wound without having to dodge the center member of the saw, again simplifying the tensioning of the arms. Might be worth looking into.

[lowell holmes]

I didn't know about their site. What a nice line of tools.

I have a Wood Joy spoke shave I really like. I may have to shop there.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Mike,
if you use thin twine - the thinner the better the tightening problem goes away totally. A thin fishing line will allow far more force than a thicker string.

[Salem Ganzhorn]

Very cool design Mike. Thanks for pointing it out!
Salem

[Mike Holbrook]

Right Joel, I hear braided fishing line does well. I may try that as I wonder if monofilament might tend to kink. At least, I remember spending many hot summer hours trying to get the kink out of my monofilament line.

Those toggles are cool. Joel, maybe Gramercy could offer the two part toggles as purchasable enhancements to Turning Saw kits, kinda like handles, pins, blades...or might not be worth the trouble.

I will build one one day, but right now I have to learn to sharpen the panel & hand saws I have. I finally got a jig made to mount my Gramercy Vice to my bench today, not as easy as I thought. The turning saw will be next though.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Mike,
When we were designing our turning saw we tested every type of toggle design we could find. The narrow swinging toggle, which we use, is a 18th century design that just needs to be pushed a side to get clearance for more turns. With the wide paddle of the late 19th century, and the wide paddle in a yoke, there is so much friction on the paddle or yoke from the twisted strings that the paddle is hard push push back and forth. The paddle in a sliding yoke looks cool but doesn't actually work very well. Both these high friction designs give deceptive feedback on how much force is on the blade. Another issue is weight. You want frame to be as light as possible so as not to influence the cutting. A heavier toggle,l like the paddle and yoke design simple adds to the weight and out of balance feeling of the saw.

[john brenton]

As Joel stated, rosin could work, or in the case of the larger bow saws I have which have wooden blade holders I use pencil lead which is an old remedy for violin pegs. On my turning saw with steel holders I went ahead and sprayed hairspray on the far end peg.


If any of you have figured a way to stop the handles on this saw from turning so easily and twisting the blade, please let me know here. I have tried leather washers between the handles and the frame to add some friction, but the result has been that I never use this saw because the blade twisting is just aggrevating. I suspect that the brass pins are too small for this application and that they should have been tapered so they would self-tighten.

[Tony Shea]

I just recently built my own version of this saw out of some curly pear wood scraps I had laying around for such a project. I put it together yesterday to test it out before putting a finish on it and was amazed at how smooth cutting and what a nice balance it has. The frame ended up extremely light weight due to all the chamfering I did, per the instructions. Joel is right, the light weight of the saw really adds to its' functuality. I am in the proccess of putting some shellac on the parts and will post a pic once it is done.

To answer the OP's questions, if you have a drill press don't be affraid to use it. If not then I would go the egg beater style drill with a brad point chucked. Use a square along on axis to help hold the drill straight, your line of sight should be able to keep the other axis square. And I agree that coming from both sides is the way to go. Def use some braided fishing line, somewhere in the 65lb to 80lb range. Makes tensioning the blade feel very nice, although it certainly can be over tensioned with this setup.

[Mike Holbrook]

I feel you Joel and I know you do your research, but are we talking about the same devise? What you describe does not sound like what I have seen on Woodjoy bowsaws. I guess when I get around to making the Gramercy Turning saw kit I will find out.

[Joel Moskowitz]

I feel you Joel and I know you do your research, but are we talking about the same devise? What you describe does not sound like what I have seen on Woodjoy bowsaws. I guess when I get around to making the Gramercy Turning saw kit I will find out.

yes it is.

[Steve Branam]

I used a brace and bit. I haven't had any problems with a loose fit on the pins. To ensure proper alignment, I used hope and my eyeballs :D. The result, while not perfect, was satisfactory. I epoxied the pins into the handles, and used 60# test braided fishing line.

The saw has worked very well for me. I've used it on the curved sections of walnut cabriole legs.

[lowell holmes]

Thanks for responding. I intend to start my saw this weekend.

This has been a good thread with good information. I really appreciate the response.

[lowell holmes]

[QUOTE=Joel Moskowitz;1884821]Mike,
When we were designing our turning saw we tested every type of toggle design we could find. The narrow swinging toggle, which we use, is a 18th century design that just needs to be pushed a side to get clearance for more turns.

I finished my toggle this week end. I really do like the ease in use. I also like the appearance.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Mike - the two piece toggle also allows the saw to be tensioned 1/2 turn at a time.