Strange hand saw teeth

[Mike Holbrook]

I have seen some strange tooth patterns on saws recently. The one I have seen several times looks like the teeth are filed in pairs. At least one person selling this type tooth pattern said it was a combination "crosscut/rip" filling. The grooves between the double teeth are consistent. The grooves between each pair of teeth is consistent too, although this groove is not as deep into the plate as the groove between the pairs. One of each tooth in each pair is a wider and they appear to have a fair amount of fleam. It looks like each pair of teeth makes a larger double tooth.

Is this some filling pattern that someone out there may be familiar with? I suppose the pattern could be filled out, but it looks like it would take a good deal of work. The pattern in the teeth looks to consistent for it to just be a bad filling job. It actually looks like it would be harder to file so it is hard for me to imagine that it was done without a purpose. Could this be a factory pattern? One seller seems to imply as much.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Is it a "Double Duty" saw (http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/d17page.html)?

[Mike Holbrook]

No that isn't the pattern, that is a pattern containing 5-6 teeth. The pattern I am seeing is a double tooth pattern, if that makes any sense. I have seen this pattern on a Disston D20 and a D8, appear to be fairly old saws.

[Chris Vandiver]

We need a photo. Probably is a combo saw though.

[David Posey]

I think I know what you're talking about, and I've seen this pattern before. I always just asumed that someone was filing crosscut and stopped halfway through the filing so one side didn't get touched.

[Mike Holbrook]

Yea, I figured out how to post a picture....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6938440059/lightbox/

I think the front of the saw is to the right.

I have seen this or a very similar tooth pattern in saws from different sellers, which makes me wonder if it is intentional.

I may have to buy one just so I can drive Chris Griggs crazy with it ;-)

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Is there a number stamped on the saw back by the handle? It looks to me almost like someone took a coarse saw and went to make a fine one out of it by doubling the tooth count.

[Mike Holbrook]

Joshua,
There is no number stamp visible in any of the pictures of the saw. I have seen this same tooth pattern in several saws from different sellers so it just got me curious. Plus if it is really weird and will drive Chris Griggs nuts.... ;-0

David or Joshua may be right, it may just be a half or less finished filling job, but the shape of the two teeth looks significantly different enough to make me wonder if it is an intentional pattern. Plus I have seen at least three saws with a similar pattern to the one above.

So I just won an auction for a Disston D20 that I believe is filled this way. So in a week or two I should get a chance to check it out. Probably just a good deal of filling work for me but I got it for $13 + $7.50 shipping. The plate and handle seem to be in good shape so I will make it into something useable. There is a close up picture of the teeth of this saw that reveals them to be close to the ones above, but it is a lousy picture that only shows a few teeth against a very dark background.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6792414360/lightbox/

[David Posey]

Unless the camera angle is throwing me off, I can't see that the saw is filed anything other than crosscut, if the toe is to the right. But it seems that they somehow managed to avoid putting very much fleam on the backside of the teeth. Unless you're planning on using it as a pull saw for rip cuts, I don't see how that would work (Not that pulling a western saw is going to be terribly effective anyway.) I still think it's a botched filing job.

[Jim Koepke]

+1 on David's botched filing job comment.

I have filed saw teeth like that, they are consistent… consistently bad!

They also look to be overly set.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

OK, here is the close up of the teeth on the saw I bought. I did not take this picture. I know it is not very good, which is why I did not post it before. It looks like the same "pattern" to me but maybe it is just a botched XXcut filling. If it is a botched filling the two seem like very similar botches to be on different saws from different places. It sort of looked to me like one tooth might be a rip and the next a xxcut, but maybe not. Looks like every other tooth is substantially smaller or maybe there were just some short teeth in an area.

Then there are the small marks above the teeth, alternating between one & two marks.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6792804654/lightbox/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6792804654/lightbox/)

[Ryan Mooney]

+1 to a botched filing job. Especially that last one. Those low teeth aren't doing anything at all. I also agree with Jim that the first one has teeth way over set.

Edit: I feel especially qualified to state that its a botched filing job as I've had a few turn out like that myself :o

[Mike Allen1010]

Hello Mike,

The first picture that you posted with the "paired teeth" looks similar to the configuration you see on large, two-man, cross cut logging saws that are intended to Cross cut in both directions.

Atkins sold some hand saws with unique teeth configuration, similar but not identical to yours. They were the No. 93 "Improved Universal" "made with a special patented tooth with extra-large gullet and raker teeth. It is especially adapted for heavy work", and the No. 82 "Triple Duty Saw" which had "spear shaped" teeth also intended for heavy work.

I will try and paste a link to a site with pictures below:

http://www.mvr1.com/atkinssaws2.html


There are a couple people today that sharpen/file those teeth configurations but only on the large, two men log cutting saws they use in lumberjack competitions etc.

That said, unless you have a particular interest in using this kind of configuration on a regular sized handsaw/panel saw, for what it's worth my advice would be to use the mill file to heavily joint these teeth and then reshape them into a more conventional rip/crosscut configuration.

All the best, Mike

[Mike Holbrook]

I guess filling the teeth on either of those two saws into some sort of reasonable pattern is going to be a job? Although, Tom Law files the teeth off a saw and rebuilds new teeth in his video. I'm betting it goes faster in the video. Maybe by the time I am done I will have a decent feel for filing teeth.

[Chris Vandiver]

That appears to just be a very bad sharpening job done over many times, with lots of set. It may have been intentional but not all intentions are good ones.

[Mike Holbrook]

The first picture is a different saw than the second and third pictures. The saw in the second and third pictures is the one I bought. It may be that the tooth issue is localized to a smaller number of teeth on the saw I bought. However, the height difference may be greater in those teeth. It is hard to get very specific from the pictures the seller provided. I need practice filling teeth anyway. Guess I will go work on the clamping/mounting jig for my Gramercy Vise so I can get it back in action.

[Eric Brown]

The filing looks very consistant. Perhaps someone with an automatic filer (like a Foley or something) maybe they set it up wrong.
I also agree that the set looks like its too much. At any rate, good luck with it.

Eric

[Mike Holbrook]

The saw in the first picture, with the over set teeth, went for $100+ at auction so I did not end up with two nightmare file jobs. I have noticed that some people tend to leave teeth, especially XXcut teeth filed from one side, short. I know it is easy to push down to hard and double up on the metal removed on the upside of some teeth. Maybe the teeth on the side of the saw that gets sharpened first end up getting double reduction when the teeth on the other side of the saw get worked or vice versa.

You would think that if there is something in these sharpeners unique filing process that causes this that they would reverse the process to equalize the error. Unless of course, these sharpeners are unaware of what they are doing that is causing the problem. Maybe the two saws in those pictures were filled repeatedly with some sort of error? It has also occurred to me that some people might not take the time to joint teeth when they are sharpening them. For whatever reason there do appear to be a large number of saws with uneven badly formed teeth. Then, Herman's video may have just increased my expectations too.

[David Young]

Mike,
The pattern that you are seeing is intentional and deliberate. It is called "sloped gullets". Sloped gullets are applied to crosscut saws and the concept is to add capacity to the bottom of the gullet and strength to the tips with a steel web closer to the top of the tooth. Proper filing of a Disston ACME 120 crosscut saw is a version of this concept applied to a plate with lots of taper, hard teeth and no set. It can also be applied to any crosscut saw, with softer teeth and set. When properly done the finish left on the cut wood is glass smooth and requires little if any clean up. Its merits are occasionally debated and embraced as the holy grail of crosscut shape or dismissed as a fancy gimick with no real benefits. Either way, they look way cool and can be made to cut smooth and quick.
David

[Mike Holbrook]

David,

I am a little confused about your explanation that this tooth pattern is sloped gullets. I was at a saw sharpening class yesterday and the instructor referred to slope several times insinuating that we should forget about it, gently nodding the head when someone brought it up. As I understand from reading, slope is created by angling the file down while sharpening, creating a deeper and or wider gullet.

Apparently my instructor falls into the group that thinks slope is a fancy gimmick that slows work down. I believe he did allow that slope could make a saw cut smoother with less binding but at the cost of speed. The teeth in the pictures I posted have smaller and larger teeth arranged in a pattern. Sounds like David is saying the tooth pattern is intentional as a method of allowing slope to work? I did hear & read that an issue with larger or deeper gullets is they can weaken teeth. Maybe David is saying those funky little teeth ( "steel web" ) are there to strengthen teeth with larger gullets?

[Mike Holbrook]

I thought I would revisit this post as it appears that David is right on on this tooth pattern. Apparently these saws have sloped gullets, admittedly some of them may not have been done perfectly. I'm not sure whether or not the longer gullets just make it look like the gullets are in every other gullet or whether it just looks this way from each side of the saw. I think the teeth that look shorter are simply the backside of gulleted teeth. I found a backsaw at auction by a guy who regularly sharpens and sells saws for premium prices. I believe he resharpened the saw in the picture below with gullets done the "correct" way. Gulleted teeth were mentioned in the saw sharpening class I just took at Highland Woodworking which perked my interest, but I did not get to actually see a saw filed this way correctly.

Here is part of the description of the teeth on this saw, offered by the guy who resharpened them....

"NOTING THAT OCCASIONALLY I WILL FIND A DIFFERENCE IN THE STANDARD POINT COUNT - IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE AND THIS IS ONE OF THOSE SAWS - IT HAS 14 1/2 POINTS TO THE INCH - I COUNTED 3 TIMES AND I BELIEVE IT IS INTENTIONAL .... SO THIS IS A VERY FINE CUTTING BACK SAW THAT I HAVE CONFIGURED SPECIFICALLY FOR EXTRA FINE PRECISION WORK BY THE ACCOMPLISHED SAWYER.

WITH A VERY THIN PLATE (.020), JUST A WHISPER OF SET AND IT'S SPECIAL TOOTH CONFIGURATION - THIS SAW IS MEANT FOR THE SKILLED SAWYER IN SEASONED STABLE CABINET GRADE HARDWOODS - JUST BE AWARE THAT THERE IS ALMOST ZERO "STEERAGE" IN THE WAY THIS SAW IS SET UP - SO IT WOULD FALL INTO THE CATEGORY OF A PRECISION THIN KERF SPECIALTY SAW "

Here is a link to a picture of the saw:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16891057@N05/6854031416/in/photostream/lightbox/