Why so many threads about bandsaws?

[Chris Hedges]

It seems like there are a lot of threads about bandsaws. Why is that?

Chris

[glenn bradley]

Because they are such a great tool. Many people don't find out how indispensable a reliable bandsaw is until they get the opportunity to use one. This fuels everything from old arn rebuild efforts to discount disappointments to enriching the Italian economy.

[Aaron Berk]

It seems like there are a lot of threads about bandsaws. Why is that?

Chris


U must not own a bandsaw :D

[Van Huskey]

Are you kidding me? There are not NEARLY enough threads on bandsaws!!!???!!! :D BLASPHEMER.


Real answer, everyone needs a bandsaw, check they everyone needs several bandsaws. There is probably more mystery and art to bandsaw setup than any other basic machine in a wood shop, this holds true for picking the tooling as well. Bandsaws, space wise, tend to be easier to upgrade since much of the extra space taken up by a larger saw is vertical. People like bandsaws.

[Steven Lee, NC]

:( SIGH, Yet another bandsaw thread

[David Kumm]

There are a million types and sizes and a million uses for bandsaws and very little useful information provided by manufacturers to determine whether the machine is appropriate for the intended use. In my perfect world every saw would list how many lbs of force was needed to deflect the frame a specific amount. For instance, if I knew the saw would deflect .001" at 750 lbs I would know that I could tension a 1" (3/4 behind the gullet) x .035 Trimaster to 25000psi. If I have my math right. Not only would that solve 90% of the saw issues it would force the manufacturers to improve their product. When Laguna increased the resaw of their machines it led to better saws due to the competition's reaction. Without any real info we are always looking for others experiences to fill in the gaps of our knowledge. Dave

[Brian Kincaid]

U must not own a bandsaw :D

Exactly what I was going to say! :)
-Brian

[Van Huskey]

Dave, when are we going to get tension scales marked in absolute tension??? Carter actually has/had kinda sorta that but it had limited applications even within the Delta cast clone set. If you take Duginski's word the commercial "stretch" based gauges are designed for the metal work industry (fact) and produce poor results with WWing tensions (his conclusion). I know this paradigm shift would blow the minds of some casual users but it would be very useful. The concept 3/4" on the scale works for a 3/4" .016 gauge hardened spring steel band and also a .032 gauge 3/4" carbide tipped band is laughable.

Thead jack over.

[Neil Brooks]

It's like ringing the dinner bell, for Van Huskey ... who ... always has excellent information to add, on the subject :)

[David Kumm]

Thread jack not over yet Van. I respect Mark a lot but disagree about the tension thing. I've had multiple tension gauges and all read within 1000 psi of each other so absent a bad gauge you can get repeatibility which is more important than the actual number. If I tension the same blade to the same number it seems to eliminate or at least reduce tracking, guide, and fatique problems so I'm a huge believer in them. this is why there are so many threads. Dave

[Aaron Berk]

:( SIGH, Yet another bandsaw thread

omg, we've all been suckered :eek:

But yet even this seemingly casual BS thread has produced some great knowledge.

U guys been to the sister site yet?

Bandsawmillcreek.org :D

[Chris Hedges]

2001 Laguna 16HD. Aside from the occasional curved work and re-sawing, I just dont see it as that important of a piece. Though having said that, resawing 12 maple is pretty difficult to do on anything but a bandsaw.

Chris

[Van Huskey]

Thread jack not over yet Van. I respect Mark a lot but disagree about the tension thing. I've had multiple tension gauges and all read within 1000 psi of each other so absent a bad gauge you can get repeatibility which is more important than the actual number. If I tension the same blade to the same number it seems to eliminate or at least reduce tracking, guide, and fatique problems so I'm a huge believer in them. this is why there are so many threads. Dave

I used to have a Starrett and sold it partially based on Mark. I now use the calipe stretch method since I know it is precise (repeatable) though it requires math... After that I just use sight, touch and sound to dial it in "better". I have never attempted to prove or disprove Mark's assertions though there are a lot of discussions on the point. My opinions tend to line up with his in most respects but I have divergent opinions in some areas.

[Van Huskey]

2001 Laguna 16HD. Aside from the occasional curved work and re-sawing, I just dont see it as that important of a piece. Though having said that, resawing 12 maple is pretty difficult to do on anything but a bandsaw.

Chris

It just depends on what other machines you have and how you go about certain tasks. There are a ton of ways to cut dovetails, a BS is one, there are a bunch of ways to cut tennons, a BS is one etc. Resawing and contour cutting are probably the most important functions of a BS since there aren't a lot of good alternatives, but it is an extremely versatile machine BUT most of the other tasks can be done on other machines, it just depends on what works for the individual. I have often wondered what the pre-power tool furniture builders would choose if they could have one powered machine in their shop. I have always come to the conclusion that it would be a bandsaw.

[Jim Andrew]

A bandsaw is a pretty expensive decision, and I didn't want to buy the wrong one, so did a lot of reading here on the creek. Of course an Italian came to live in my shop. Only downside, they keep increasing the capacity of them every year, so your old saw gets to be kindof obselete after while. But I still appreciate my MM.

[joe milana]

Oh boy!!! A bandsaw thread about bandsaw threads!!! I just love bandsaw threads!

225511

[ian maybury]

:) There's something very attractive about band saws. Their relatively non-threatening, controlled and relaxed way of working? Or maybe the fact that establishing a relationship with the beast entails intuition???

On tension gauges. Discussing them a few days ago i was enthused enough to run the numbers. Presuming i got the maths right it looks like 25,000 psi stress is likely to produce a stretch of around 0.0005in over a 6in length of blade/clamp spacing. (regardless of the size of the blade)

Two points immediately came to mind:

1. Tension gauges seem to be based on dial gauges. It takes a pretty sensitive dial gauge to get down to .0001in/div, and they are a lot more expensive than more typical types. ($100+ over here)

2. Chances are that most blades when slackened off will develop some sideways curve. Adding tension will pull this out, but the result will be that the gauge will probably register a substantial deflection - which won't be 'stretch'. (technically 'strain' in engineering speak)

As the tension increases the blade will simultaneously straighten AND start to stretch, but it's not that clear how the two effects can be separated.

My guess is that getting a tension gauge to truly register stretch/strain requires pre-tensioning the blade to a fairly significant degree before zeroing the gauge/starting to read deflection. The gauge may initially deflect very quickly, but slow down to respond much more slowly once any bend is removed and the movement is stretch/strain only.

If so the resulting under reading may not be a big deal in highly tensioned blades - but getting consistent readings (that are not confused by the straightening effect) probably does require a consistent technique in terms of this pre-tensioning before starting to read deflection.

Maybe this is why some regard tension gauges as inaccurate?

ian

[Jeff Duncan]

I have to agree, too many bandsaw threads....what we really need is more shaper threads!!! Don't get me wrong, I love having a good bandsaw! A shaper however is probably the most flexible machine in the workshop. I bought my first shaper roughly 7 years ago and have barely tapped into what the capabilities are.

I say throw a decent 1/2" blade on the bandsaw and your done.....time to focus on the shaper and it's many possibilities:D

JeffD

[Russ D Wood]

Well, I've learned a lot about the care and feeding of bandsaws by all these bandsaw threads. BTW I have three, a small, a medium, and a large 19 inch. On most of my model building projects I seem to be able to justify having all 3! :) Russ

[David Kumm]

Ian, my experience - for what it is worth- is that you need to have some tension on the blade but that most of the reading comes during the last turn or so of the wheel. The key is having the blade tight but not to the point of exerting much effort in turning the wheel and preloading the dial so that it starts out partially depressed. It takes two hands to crank up a 1" blade to 25000. While the results are certainly not perfect, it does add some comfort when running a blade at 7000 fpm that you are relatively close to repeating what worked before. I'm ready to talk shapers. Dave

[Chris Parks]

Anyone know where the thread is that Mark Duginski's engineer friend did on blade stretch measurement?

[Dan Clark]

I have neither a bandsaw nor a table saw. But I have a bunch of Festools. In the last six years of remodeling my house, I've never run into a problem where I needed a table saw. It might have been faster sometimes, but my Festools did just fine. OTOH...

There were several occasions where a bandsaw would have been VERY nice and saved me hassles. Maybe some day I'll get a small table saw. But that will be AFTER a bandsaw!

Regards,

Dan.

[Van Huskey]

Anyone know where the thread is that Mark Duginski's engineer friend did on blade stretch measurement?

I think you want this one:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?63091-Damaged-Band-Saws-from-Overtensioning

[Van Huskey]

My quote feature went goofy

I have to agree, too many bandsaw threads....what we really need is more shaper threads!!! Don't get me wrong, I love having a good bandsaw! A shaper however is probably the most flexible machine in the workshop. I bought my first shaper roughly 7 years ago and have barely tapped into what the capabilities are.

I say throw a decent 1/2" blade on the bandsaw and your done.....time to focus on the shaper and it's many possibilities:D

JeffD




Shapers are monkey tools, bandsaws are slightly trained monkey tools. :D Throw a cutter and maybe a collar on, put the belt on the correct pulleys (or not) crank it up or down and feed some stock into the feeder, MONKEY TOOL. The bandsaw on the other hand is a glorious tool which reflects its users touch and feel, attention to detail and sheer love of the ART in the results, like a well polished mirror. The bandsaw is a mistress able to vex and beguile you at the same time, drawing you in with her Siren song and based on your skills can dash you against the rocks or send you home with a boat load of perfectly cut veneer. The bandsaw can be small as a mouse or as big as an elephant, the bandsaw can purr like a new born kitty or roar like a pride leading lion. The bandsaw makes things that make the women go "WOW" the shaper makes things that make women say "I saw one of those at Lowes in the moulding aisle". Keep in mind the shaper is less interesting than the feeder that sits on top of it. Good gosh man it is a BOX with a rotating stick coming out the top...without the stick in it, it is merely a box that hums. There are plenty of beautiful examples of industrial design in the bandsaw world, just how many ways can you make a box? In the end I will leave you with a simple thought ala THUNDERDOME, two tools enter, one tool leaves, what do you want to bet the odds on the shaper are LONG...

:cool:

[Van Huskey]

@ Ian and blade curve. You are exactly correct, the more narrow the band and the thinner the gauge the more curve will be in the blade prior to starting tension. So in theory my caliper approach and Dave's tension meter become more accurate and precise with wider thicker bands.

Here is the thing put Dave and I along with the vast majority of bandsaw users in a room with a band, an unknown to us BS with no tension scale and a few minutes and we would all have the band tensioned just fine. The problem is for at least folks like dave and I we are numbers people, we do ultimately only care if it works, but we want something to tell us we are correct, not just 90% correct but dead nuts. My problem is I don't see anything available to us that does that. A meter that reads in absolute pressure on the wheel and some maths (love the UK plural version!) and one would be very very close. My guess is the manufacturers don't bother with this expense is 1. most bandsaw users are able to get close enough in a dark room with a blindfold on and 2. math scare a lot of people, nobody (well some folks do) wants a bandsaw that they makes them feel like they needed a B+ or better in Diffy Qs to operate.

Let me go deeper into the muck. A popular author on bandsaws (for whom I have high respect) says that the scale on the bandsaw is good enough. Bunk, hooey, poo. The problem with any scale on a bandsaw that uses the width of the band as a guide will not be accurate for many (most?) of the bands that size. Consider a 3/4" blade, first you have gauges from .016" to around .04" the absolute pressure needed to get those different bands to the same PSI is SIGNIFICANTLY different. Further, manufacturers recommend vastly different PSI ranges for silicon, carbon, bimetal and carbide tipped blades. Consider how much different the absolute pressure on a 3/4" .016" carbon band with a recommended tension of 15,000PSI varies from a 3/4" .041" band carbide tippes band with a recommended tension of 26,000 PSI. Bottom line the "gauge" could be correct for one, neither but not both.

I think the bottom line is tensioning a band with what we have available off the shelf is mainly art pursuing science BUT that is fine since most bandsaw users don't have trouble getting good results and the ones that don't because of tension issues just need the push to forget the gauges and be more results driven. The problem is explaining to someone new to bandsaw that tensioning requires a heuristic approach instead of just dialing in a number on a gauge, most of us crave a number instead.


Worthless rant over.

PS with all the strain gauges including a DIY version one must use the MOE of the material, Modulus of Elasticity of steel is roughly 30 x 10^6. This is probably good enough for government work but the band material is going to vary some, so if you are a REAL numbers guys you are going to have to get the number from the manufacturer (good luck) AND know what MOE the manufacturer of your gauge used for determining the scale. Not significant but just one more veggie in the soup.

PSS the author that I allude to surely knows the scale is bunk BUT he has to give some starting point and frankly that scale is good enough to start then work on trial an error, I have recommended starting there often myself...

[ian maybury]

There's not much payback from relying on the black arts/pot luck so far as getting consistent performance from a machine is concerned David/Van - so +1 for a repeatable tensioning process.

It sounds like whatever initial tensioning is required to remove the 'bend' (provided it's correctly handled) isn't enough to prevent strain based tension measurement methods from delivering repeatable blade tension numbers on big saws. (even if their accuracy may not in absolute terms be 100%)

What i was thinking of though is that inconsistent methods of handling this issue might explain why some claim them to be inconsistent.

ian

PS (can't help getting interested in this topic :p)

(1) One attraction of these clamp-on strain based blade tension gauges may be that the 'stretch' in the blade/deflection measured by the dial gauge is the same for a given psi tension - regardless of blade size.

(2) The original thread referenced above expresses concern about using dial gauges to measure deflections that amount to a small % of their total travel. This in fact is often how they are used. Chances are that provided the initial pre-tensioning properly takes up any slop in the mechanism in the direction of measurement that it'll do OK.

(3) Long personal experience with suspension set up in motorcycle racing suggests that the spring that doesn't 'sag' after it's been worked for some time doesn't exist. Certainly not if it's being stressed significantly. This means that the calibration on mechanical tension indicators is likely at least to drift away from zero. The spring stiffness won't change significantly though, so a given amount of pointer movement once it's pre-tensioned/any extra slop is taken up will still amount to the application of a given amount of tension. Friction if it's present will produce very erratic results though.

(4) What you guys say about strain based tension gauges being most applicable to larger band saws capable of tensioning blades to high psi numbers makes sense. Where the tension applied beyond pulling out any bend/twist in the blade may be small (as on a light saw?) the 'stretch' could easily be so small that it becomes very hard to separate from straightening effects. With the result that the readings would become unreliable.

(5) It shouldn't (as was said in the other thread) be all that hard to devise a hydraulic or strain gauge based blade blade tension force gauge that would sidestep most of these issues, but it would add some cost and complexity. Presumably this with lack of demand for it is the reason we've not seen it happen...

[Keith Outten]

I'm far from a bandsaw expert but it seems to me that they are much like scroll saws, you cannot appreciate a high quality bandsaw until you have used one. Then, when the light comes on, it takes at least some of the sting out of the purchase price :)
.

[Van Huskey]

There's not much payback from relying on the black arts/pot luck so far as getting consistent performance from a machine is concerned David/Van - so +1 for a repeatable tensioning process.

It sounds like whatever initial tensioning is required to remove the 'bend' (provided it's correctly handled) isn't enough to prevent strain based tension measurement methods from delivering repeatable blade tension numbers on big saws. (even if their accuracy may not in absolute terms be 100%)

What i was thinking of though is that inconsistent methods of handling this issue might explain why some claim them to be inconsistent.

ian

PS (can't help getting interested in this topic :p)

(1) One attraction of these clamp-on strain based blade tension gauges may be that the 'stretch' in the blade/deflection measured by the dial gauge is the same for a given psi tension - regardless of blade size.

(2) The original thread referenced above expresses concern about using dial gauges to measure deflections that amount to a small % of their total travel. This in fact is often how they are used. Chances are that provided the initial pre-tensioning properly takes up any slop in the mechanism in the direction of measurement that it'll do OK.

(3) Long personal experience with suspension set up in motorcycle racing suggests that the spring that doesn't 'sag' after it's been worked for some time doesn't exist. Certainly not if it's being stressed significantly. This means that the calibration on mechanical tension indicators is likely at least to drift away from zero. The spring stiffness won't change significantly though, so a given amount of pointer movement once it's pre-tensioned/any extra slop is taken up will still amount to the application of a given amount of tension. Friction if it's present will produce very erratic results though.

(4) What you guys say about strain based tension gauges being most applicable to larger band saws capable of tensioning blades to high psi numbers makes sense. Where the tension applied beyond pulling out any bend/twist in the blade may be small (as on a light saw?) the 'stretch' could easily be so small that it becomes very hard to separate from straightening effects. With the result that the readings would become unreliable.

(5) It shouldn't (as was said in the other thread) be all that hard to devise a hydraulic or strain gauge based blade blade tension force gauge that would sidestep most of these issues, but it would add significant cost and complexity. Presumably this with lack of demand for it is the reason we've not seen it happen...

First, don't lump Dave in with me because I follow much more of the black arts when it comes to bandsaws than he does! I do think it is very much like a musician, at first tuning an instrument seems vague and unapproachable enter tuning forks and electonic tuners but over time the musician gets to a point where he/she can nail it every time, I think this is true with bandsaw operators AND I think the window for good results is larger on a bandsaw. We could be more accurate but a 100+ years of people bandsawing has proven for most handfed operations it just isn't necessary, despite some of our desires for perfectly accurate numbers. Add to that band manufacturers don't give any really specific numbers and when you try to nail them down they talk in ranges which quite frankly are pretty wide. So even if we could hit a tension down the the single PSI we wouldn't even have a specific number to shoot for just a range.

1. yep, no math just a linear progression
3. I agree with you, I don't understand the metalurgy but bandsaw springs do "die"
4. Since I was never in the original discussion I don't know but I have often wondered what bands were used for the testing, I have a feeling they were thin/narrow carbon bands which based on the factors you have mentioned they would likely give less repeatable results
5. easy enough Carter has/had a product to do this on 14" Delta cast clone saws that did not use a quick release, one version even killed the power to the saw if the blade snapped or any other reason the tension dropped below a certain level, I have one somewhere in my junk, never got around to using it though. Part of the problem is there were expensive in relation to the inexpensive saws they fit, someone with a serious saw might be more willing to cough up the money, but then there are the design and manufacturing and cost effectiveness of making them to fit a number of saws.

On the "taking up the slack" issue, if one is worried about it you could use a pair of flat surfaces to clamp a section to hold it flat (under no tension) until you attached the gauge. May be cumbersome but it could work.

[David Kumm]

Van and Ian, my like for tension gauges has to due with my ability to screw up something simple. I have three saws without built in meters and sometimes go months without turning them on. They all use different blades and have different sweet spots. If I used them every day, or was musically inclined i would not use the gauge. Once you have established what works it is fairly easy to repeat. For me the gauge works to get close enough that when I turn on that big saw without the best footbrake in the world I won't send the blade off the wheel before I can stop the saw. The fact that they are somewhat inaccurate is not the point. They are fairly repeatable on big blades and if you know how to set them up, even on small ones. From what I read here most problems are in some way related to tension or people trying to use more blade than the saw will handle. I bought both my Starretts on ebay for $100 each- I looked a while. I have yet to break a Trimaster since using them and broke several prior to that. Mostly due to my stupidity but not having a real reference for what tension I was actually setting lead to some of it. Truth is that while everyone could benefit from one, a single one could be passed around to multiple owners as they serve best when first getting used to a saw. Dave

[Rod Sheridan]

I think that there are so many band saw threads because so many people buy poor quality band saws.

If everyone bought a good band saw how many threads would there be discussing why the $200 Flexy Flier won't tension a 1" blade?

Everyone seems to understand that the $100 portable table saw isn't in the same universe as a cabinet saw, yet many people try to get a 14" clone band saw to do the work of a 36" Cresent.

Once you eliminate the poor saws and blades, how many actual questions are there on band saws?

The other issue of course is that there are some adjustments required, such as tensioning the blade and adjusting the guide system which is absent from circular saws.

The blade tension gauge (stress) is another issue, very common in metal working, almost unknown in wood working. Perhaps it's because wood working is seen as "less technical" meaning less mathematics regarding cutting.

Machinists routinely calculate cutter speeds, feed rates etc., yet most wood workers look at you like you have antlers when you discuss chip thickness or feed rates.

Regards, Rod.

[Mike Cutler]

It's a misunderstood and undervalued machine in the shop, and generally most folks find out how useful it is on their own.
It's also not a machine that lends itself to being made cheaply. I'd give up both of my table saws before I'd give up my bandsaws.

As to the thread jack on tension gauges;
I did the proof testing, and calibrations to NIST standards, of the currently available bandsaw tension meters for Mark Duginske.
His position on the issue was to establish that the installed tension gauge on the band saw, exclusive to the Delta clone, was adequate and that an after market tension meter was not necessary, and due to the applicable range of operation was cauing bandsaws to be over tensioned and causing damage.
I spent three months doing tests with the Carter, Starrett, Lennox, and Ittura bandsaw tension gauges, and cross cal'd all of them to each other and the installed tension gauge on the back of the bandsaw.
The end result is that Mark is correct, in that the installed tension gauge on the Delta, and it's clones is adequate.
The only difference of opinion I had with Mark during all of the testing was the viability and usability of the OEM tension spring installed on the bandsaws.
The springs I tested all seemed to max out at about 9500 psi.
If you really want to install a tension meter, the Carter is probably the most user friendly,and the readout in Lbs. wheel force, instead of PSI is a little more understandable.

[Jeff Duncan]

[QUOTE=Van Huskey;1883767]My quote feature went goofy
I have to agree, too many bandsaw threads....what we really need is more shaper threads!!! Don't get me wrong, I love having a good bandsaw! A shaper however is probably the most flexible machine in the workshop. I bought my first shaper roughly 7 years ago and have barely tapped into what the capabilities are.

I say throw a decent 1/2" blade on the bandsaw and your done.....time to focus on the shaper and it's many possibilities:D

JeffD




The bandsaw on the other hand is a glorious tool which reflects its users touch and feel, attention to detail and sheer love of the ART in the results, like a well polished mirror. The bandsaw is a mistress able to vex and beguile you at the same time, drawing you in with her Siren song and based on your skills can dash you against the rocks or send you home with a boat load of perfectly cut veneer. The bandsaw can be small as a mouse or as big as an elephant, the bandsaw can purr like a new born kitty or roar like a pride leading lion. The bandsaw makes things that make the women go "WOW"

:cool:
[/QUOTE ]

When you finally get around to writing your own book on bandsaws....that has to be the opening paragraph!

[Neil Brooks]

I'm far from a bandsaw expert but it seems to me that they are much like scroll saws, you cannot appreciate a high quality bandsaw until you have used one. Then, when the light comes on, it takes at least some of the sting out of the purchase price :)
.

Agreed.

But ... sadly ... I think there's another element that may be equally true:

My table saw will get through nearly anything I throw at it ... reasonably well ... even fairly far out of tune, and with the OEM blade.

Not so your garden variety band saw, or so it seems.

ISTM that many manufacturers (Maybe it's truer in the under $X realm) send them out the door with "place holder" blades, and in no particular state of tune.

Tuned up properly, and given a decent blade for the intended tasks, I think yet another light comes on, and another convert is born :)

Which may explain the profusion of "what's supposed to be so cool about these things ??" threads....

[Kent A Bathurst]

.......Carter has/had a product to do this on 14" Delta cast clone saws that did not use a quick release, one version even killed the power to the saw if the blade snapped or any other reason the tension dropped below a certain level........

The Carter ETG. I was fortunate enough that I got one NIB at a steep discount from a Creeker. It had the advanced power-kill function, but it had been in the box for many years, and that transformer/power supply was DOA - all within the terms of the deal - no problem there. I got the basic power supply from Carter and hooked it up to my Delta C-frame.

FWIW - the load cell occupies the same physical space as Carter's aftermarket quick-release arm does, so the two are mutually exclusive. I put a crank handle on the tensioning rod, and it is so fast that I don't feel there is much advantage with the quick release, and the crank handle is a small fraction of the cost. Just my opinion.

I am not all that sure about how to interpret the ETG digital readouts in terms of tension. That does not matter to me in the least. I have scribbled notes on the setting that works best for a given blade, hard v soft wood, short v tall piece, etc. In seconds, I can set that sucker dead-nuts repeatable to those settings.

The other thing that was surprising - although the literature forewarned me - is that shortly after startup, the generated heat stretches the blade.....you can see the ETG setting decline, and adjust on the fly as needed.

I really like this gizmo. A lot. One problem I have is that in my shop's layout, it is very inconvenient to see the tension marks on the back side of the saw, so this solved that problem as well.

But - I don't think they make them anymore. I might be wrong about that. I remember a year or two ago, they dropped the price in half.....so maybe that was a close-out sale.

[ian maybury]

Gee. We've got artists and to the pointers here! (Van and David) Great to see it in action.

That's a much more qualified statement of Mark's view Mike than I'd mistakenly picked up from a quick skim of the old thread - it adds up in the case mentioned.

My instincts are similar to David's - that absolute accuracy of numbers isn't all that importantl provided you have a repeatable set up procedure that gets you to a repeatable tension number. (whatever it is)

Switching to the Agazzani from a 'flexi flyer' :) has certainly shown the truth of what you say to me Rod - for most jobs it's just bang the button and go. None of this waiting for a full moon and needing to rub it with the hair of a 40 year old cat to get it to behave.

That said it definitely likes more tension than the built in gauge suggests - it tracks a 3/8 in blade rock solid on the same point on the wheel (to the front) when cranked to about x2 the gauge, but can be a bit 'wandery' (on and off he thrust guide) at the stock setting.

It's not tested, but my guess without looking carefully at the mechanism is that it's spring sag that throws these gauges off zero. Possibly also friction - proper lubrication may matter. There's probably a reasonable chance that a well maintained built in gauge would do a decent job if it's re calibrated every now and then using a tension gauge.....

ian

[Kirk Poore]

Why are there so many bandsaw threads? Because bandsaws can look like this:
(http://www.owwm.com/photoindex/images/13420-C.jpg)225572

http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=13420

[Alan Lightstone]

The bandsaw makes things that make the women go "WOW" the shaper makes things that make women say "I saw one of those at Lowes in the moulding aisle".
:cool:
ROTFLMAO. Are we going to "Chicks dig bandsaws" threads. LOL.

[Myk Rian]

It seems like there are a lot of threads about bandsaws. Why is that?

Chris
Because people don't do a search, but instead start new threads.

[Rod Sheridan]

My quote feature went goofy
I have to agree, too many bandsaw threads....what we really need is more shaper threads!!! Don't get me wrong, I love having a good bandsaw! A shaper however is probably the most flexible machine in the workshop. I bought my first shaper roughly 7 years ago and have barely tapped into what the capabilities are.

I say throw a decent 1/2" blade on the bandsaw and your done.....time to focus on the shaper and it's many possibilities:D

JeffD




Shapers are monkey tools, bandsaws are slightly trained monkey tools. :D Throw a cutter and maybe a collar on, put the belt on the correct pulleys (or not) crank it up or down and feed some stock into the feeder, MONKEY TOOL. The bandsaw on the other hand is a glorious tool which reflects its users touch and feel, attention to detail and sheer love of the ART in the results, like a well polished mirror. The bandsaw is a mistress able to vex and beguile you at the same time, drawing you in with her Siren song and based on your skills can dash you against the rocks or send you home with a boat load of perfectly cut veneer. The bandsaw can be small as a mouse or as big as an elephant, the bandsaw can purr like a new born kitty or roar like a pride leading lion. The bandsaw makes things that make the women go "WOW" the shaper makes things that make women say "I saw one of those at Lowes in the moulding aisle". Keep in mind the shaper is less interesting than the feeder that sits on top of it. Good gosh man it is a BOX with a rotating stick coming out the top...without the stick in it, it is merely a box that hums. There are plenty of beautiful examples of industrial design in the bandsaw world, just how many ways can you make a box? In the end I will leave you with a simple thought ala THUNDERDOME, two tools enter, one tool leaves, what do you want to bet the odds on the shaper are LONG...

:cool:


My first thought was what has Van been smoking and why has he called me a monkey?:D

Then I looked at the time of the post and realised that it was a halucination brought on by fatigue.

OK, so actually I laughed so loud that the guy in the next office came in to see what was so funny. Van, that paragraph was priceless however Diann is far more impressed with the shaper than the bandsaw, maybe I need to take her to the BORG so she can see that baseboards can also be purchased..........LOL..........Regards, Rod.

[Carl Beckett]

It seems like there are a lot of threads about bandsaws. Why is that?

Chris


To balance out all the dust collection posts.

:D


(well - they are some similarities, in that there isnt a common commoditization of function to the degree there is with other equipment. And for this audience at least, that means a lot of debate and inquiry and research to find an 'optimum' answer (where a technical optimum really isnt derivable))

[Van Huskey]

It's a misunderstood and undervalued machine in the shop, and generally most folks find out how useful it is on their own.
It's also not a machine that lends itself to being made cheaply. I'd give up both of my table saws before I'd give up my bandsaws.

As to the thread jack on tension gauges;
I did the proof testing, and calibrations to NIST standards, of the currently available bandsaw tension meters for Mark Duginske.
His position on the issue was to establish that the installed tension gauge on the band saw, exclusive to the Delta clone, was adequate and that an after market tension meter was not necessary, and due to the applicable range of operation was cauing bandsaws to be over tensioned and causing damage.
I spent three months doing tests with the Carter, Starrett, Lennox, and Ittura bandsaw tension gauges, and cross cal'd all of them to each other and the installed tension gauge on the back of the bandsaw.
The end result is that Mark is correct, in that the installed tension gauge on the Delta, and it's clones is adequate.
The only difference of opinion I had with Mark during all of the testing was the viability and usability of the OEM tension spring installed on the bandsaws.
The springs I tested all seemed to max out at about 9500 psi.
If you really want to install a tension meter, the Carter is probably the most user friendly,and the readout in Lbs. wheel force, instead of PSI is a little more understandable.


Mike, I appreciate you revisiting this issue. I absolutely do not want this thread to go where the last did, the results were very sad. But, I am curious. If you had a bandsaw without a factory gauge (many large industrial saws were built this way) and the Carter ETG was unavailable or not applicable how would you set the tension?

Trust me I am not trying to be argumantative I am just curious.

[Van Huskey]

When you finally get around to writing your own book on bandsaws....that has to be the opening paragraph!

They better hope they get their moneys worth from the first paragraph, the rest of the book would be worthless! :o

[Brian Kincaid]

This has got to be one of the most derailed, informative, and funny threads I have ever read. Thanks guys.
-Brian

[Mike Cutler]

Mike, I appreciate you revisiting this issue. I absolutely do not want this thread to go where the last did, the results were very sad. But, I am curious. If you had a bandsaw without a factory gauge (many large industrial saws were built this way) and the Carter ETG was unavailable or not applicable how would you set the tension?

Trust me I am not trying to be argumantative I am just curious.

By feel and trial and error.
When I first started wood working back in 1970 ( 7th grade), I was a pretty small kid, under 5' tall, and remained there until about the 9th grade when I finally took a growth spurt.
Only being that tall made the table saw very awkward for me to operate, but the band saw I could stand on a step stool and operate easily. I'd say until the 9th grade the teacher usually had to operate the table saw for me. I just couldn't reach through a cut. That band saw though, I could,and most of the guys wanted to operate the table saw, so I pretty much had the bandsaw to myself for about 2 years.
I got pretty comfortable with one,and always have been.
At work I have access to big DoAll's, Marvels, and Rockwells.
The Marvel has hydraulic cup adjusters for tension, but that is a completely different type of bandsaw, and is used to cut heavy steel. Turn off the cutting fluid nozzle and believe me it makes a great wood bandsaw.
The DoAll's and the Rockwells have tension indicators built into them, and the bigger DoAll adjusts itself. The smaller Rockwell is more utilitarian as it's set up and adjusts just like a less expensive framed bandsaw, a big wheel underneath. I just go by feel and eye with that one.
Steel and wood being cut on the bandsaw have some of the same issues, ie blade drift and lead. On the Marvel, if you get a crappy cut, it's your fault and the problem is either feed rate, or heat build up. Back off the feed rate and the cut cleans right up.
I don't own what I would consider "top shelf" bandsaws. I have 14" Jet, with a riser block, and an 18" Rikon 10-340.
The Rikon is setup specifically for resawing with a 2/3 Varipitch Lennox TriMaster,and the Jet usually has a 1/4"T-Wolf blade on it.
The difference is that both of the bandsaw have been completely torn down to parade rest. All bearings have been changed out, any moving metal to metal parts, ie the tension assemble on the Jet, have been stoned and polished. Arbor shafts have been modified and shimmed, so that the wheels are adjustable in both axes from perpindicular. All the cheesey bolts have been replaced upgraded to B5's, and B8's.I do have to repair the saddle area on the upper yoke of the Jet. The crappy tension rod bore a hole through it, but I have a different tension rod set up though now, so it's not an issue.
I actually had to make my own square nut for the Jet tension assembly just to change that tension rod over to a US 5/16" thread of better material quality. The OEM thread stock was too soft and yielded causing tension issues, it slipped and stripped. The spring on the Jet was also upgraded to a Carter and the blade guides replaced and reworked with Carters to be closer to the Delta design, which is a better design with respect to the lower guide bearing setup. I had to fabricate lower blade guide bearing mounts for the Carters to move them closer to the underside of the table and decrease the distance between the unsupported length of blade.
I owned the Rikon for less than a week before it was completely disassembled and worked over. I changed a few things on that.;) The Rikon is setup specifically for resawing with a 2/3 Varipitch Lennox TriMaster,and the Jet usually has a 1/4"T-Wolf blade on it.
I'm under no disillusions about the quaiity of my bandsaws,and never expected either of them function perfectly without be "worked over" from day one.
I'm not being glib with the next statement, but I think people worry too much about how to set up a band saw, and not enough about getting good technique.
To me, a bandsaw is sort of like a lathe. They take practice to develop a comfort level with.
Mike

[Van Huskey]

I do have to repair the saddle area on the upper yoke of the Jet. The crappy tension rod bore a hole through it, but I have a different tension rod set up though now, so it's not an issue.


Thanks for your opinion.

On the yoke hole, you are by far not the first, I have seen it on several other brands like the Grizzly as well. Ones with tension releases don't do it as they float above the yoke.

[Harold Burrell]

I think that there are so many band saw threads because so many people buy poor quality band saws.

If everyone bought a good band saw how many threads would there be discussing why the $200 Flexy Flier won't tension a 1" blade?



I happen to like my Flexy Flier, thank you very much. :p

[John Coloccia]

re: tension

I must say that I've noticed a trend. How many owners of high end band saws spend their days worrying about blade tension? Let's be honest...no one worries about it with 3/16" curve cutting blades. We all worry about it with our 1/2", 3/4" and 1" resaw blades because the fact is that most of use by cheaper bandsaws that can't handle the tension, and we're constantly fighting a balance between enough tension for the blade and too much tension for the saw. Too little tension and the blade wanders. Too much tension and the saw surges, bucks and otherwise misbehaves.

This is why I typically recommend no more than a 1/2" resaw blade in practically every saw other than the higher end saws like the Minimax. I used to run a 1" blade in my Grizzly. I've decided that's absolutely ridiculous...the whole thing flexes and bucks. Do that in a high end saw and it will run as smooth as a baby's bottom. Even with my G0514X2, that's advertised to take a 1" blade, I don't run anything over 1/2" anymore. Shoot, you can barely even fit a 1" blade in there, never mind actually running one efficiently. That's okay because I can resaw very well with a 1/2" blade, and often just use the 3/16" blade thats sitting in there most of the time. At this point I'm very good at quickly tuning the saw and I can follow lines freehand, but a newbie with a cheap saw, a big blade and an 8" chunk of maple to turn into veneers is not going to get a cheaper saw to work well for them without a lot of practice and guidance.

We have lots of band saw threads because lots of us can't afford (or didn't think they could afford) industrial bandsaws that are actually designed to do all of the resawing and ripping tasks that we ask our saws to do....or rather that they're advertised they can do.

It's the same reason we have a lot of threads in the Neanderthal Haven about tuning up cheap hand planes. See if you can find a thread about tuning up Veritas or Lie-Neilsen hand planes. Those planes just get sharpened and used. All the problems are with the cheaper planes, and all the bandsaw problems are with the cheaper saws.

Just my opinion.

[David Kumm]

Well said, John. Dave

[Mike Cutler]

Well stated John.
I should have had you write my post. I suck trying to convey my thoughts in writing.:o

[Van Huskey]

John, there is an amazing amount of wisdom in your post and I agree 100% with pretty much everything. I think too often people (me included) attach some level of machismo to the size of their resaw blade. Dave is one of those guys that is comfortable with his bandsawlinity and uses a thinner blade than I prefer on a bandsaw that if you could attach my saw between the wheels of his that saw could probably rip mine's spine apart like a Zombie that hadn't eaten for 3 weeks at a super model convention. My point being too many people feel the need to put thick wide carbide tipped blades (at the extreme) on 14" cast clone saws, I wouldn't try to tension those on a PM 141 or General 490! Wide has its benefits but only when it isn't pushing the ability of the saw. The higher beam strength makes life easier, less barrel in the cuts, less chance of overfeeding and an overall higher resistance to twisting. That is all woderful but without the proper tension the beam strength isn't there. Like with many lighter duty tools the results can be the same with a 14" Delta as with a Yates American Y42 (up the the capacity of the Delta) but the user is going to have to be more gentle with the Delta. OK that is a little (maybe a lot) hyperbolic but one gets the picture.

BTW as Mike said you said it a lot better!

[Jeff Duncan]

Yup, one more in agreement with John. Biggest blade I run on my 20" Delta is 3/4" and haven't run into much trouble. I've also done some re-sawing with smaller blades with no trouble. I've always thought a 1" blade on anything smaller than say a 20" saw was.....well.....ambitious;)

JeffD

Now can we start talking shapers:D

[ian maybury]

That's very much my view too John - apologies to anybody who feels otherwise.

It's in some ways a mindset issue rather than anything to do with absolute constraints. If we can raise our sights to go after a 'generously' specced machine it's often surprising what they can be bought for used. (especially if 3 phase)

It's in many ways quite like the dust system deal. With some work and creativity (and maybe even just by putting the time into purchasing) you can build a high CFM system for quite moderate money - for not a lot more than the cost of an off the shelf unit of much lower specification.

It's perhaps different in the US, but I found over here (ireland) that less than €1,000 plus the cost of a rotary phase converter was enough to get me upgraded to a little used three phase 24in Agazzani. The option was there at the same time to switch to a 24in Centauro for the same money as a used single Scheppach Basato 5-4 sold for.

The problem to watch out for is that while the above may cost a little extra and take some more work, it at least leaves one with (whatever the type of equipment) with a platform that at least has the ability to perform at the required level. Come in at too low a level, and it may be that no amount of prepping or tuning can overcome inherent limitations. ( as i've discovered the hard way)...

ian