Advise on choosing a J/P combo - Hammer A3-31 or a MiniMax FS30 Smart

[Charles B Thomas]

I am ready to purchase a J/P combo, a big heavy Euro machine. I was 99% convinced the Hammer A3-31 is right for me; I would get it outfitted with the Byrd cutterhead and digital wheel.
And then the MiniMax USA rep called back and offered me a FS-30 Smart for the same price as Hammer is offering the base A3-31 w/ Byrd head ($3,800.00).
I am okay with the shorter jointer bed of the Hammer.I've heard the new, redesigned A3-31 has a better fence (with center lock) which about the only negative I've heard about the Hammer. It also now has a single lift (both tables lift at once). Not sure if this is good or bad. Looks like it sits closer to the wall, but lifting both tables at once looks heavy-ish.

I've also heard hearsay that the FS30 is more of a machine, not quite on par with Felder, but more machine than a Hammer. Those comments seem to be vauge and/or come from people that have seen one, but not the other.

Any adivse on choosing a euro J/P combo would be appreciated.

Charles

[John Coloccia]

The changeover on the FS30 seems like a Rube Goldberg machine. You know, it really makes be wonder why they all don't execute the changeover like the Jet. Mine takes about 10 seconds. The Minimax is like, "Pull this fence there, move this table, then that one, flip the shroud, disconnect the dust hose from one shroud and put it on the second shroud...Tada!". My Jet is "Lift the table, flip the shroud". Period. No mucking with the fence...no anything.

Even the Hammer forces you to pull the fence back, but that's not a big deal.

I'm sure the tables have a counter spring on them so I wouldn't worry about the weight.

Hey, if you do decide to get that FS30, order it with the European guard. Once you try it, you'll never go back to a pork chop guard again.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I've owned an A3-31 for 3 years great machine, great company to deal with.

I'd go for the Hammer and the N4400 band saw.

Is there a reason you want the Byrd head on the A3-31?

Unless you have real specific needs I would stay with the Hammer cartridge knife system.............Rod.

[David Kumm]

Can't speak as to the JP but all the bandsaws you listed are good machines at their price points. I've never heard of an unhappy Aggi owner. Their saws are very well made and recently have been beefed up some to compete with the MM units. For resawing the MM16 and 20 are the best saws. Maybe not as refined as the Aggi but real heavy which is what you need with wider blades. The N4400 has gotten really good reviews although I would argue it isn't quite the saw of the others. Should be less expensive though. Don't forget to check out used JP. The heavier machines from each manufacturer get better reviews on both the Felder and MM user groups. Obvious I know, but used prices are pretty low now. Dave

[Charles B Thomas]

Hey Rod,
Thanks for the input. I don't know that I "need" the Byrd head. My only experience is with old-school straight knives. Word is on the street it is a quiter cut - sound level is important to me.

[Jeff Monson]

A3-31 and a N4400 would be a nice combination. As David stated the Agazanni is a well liked bandsaw. I have a A3-31 with the straight knives, no regrets. Well made machine and superb customer support.

Where are you located?

[Christopher Charles]

Have had a Aggi B-18 for three years and love it. The N4400 wasn't available at the time, sure it's a fine machine, especailly if you get a better price on a combo with the combo.

Good luck, don't think you can go wrong.

[Ryan Mooney]

Even the Hammer forces you to pull the fence back, but that's not a big deal.

Not true on the new ones, watch the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvakH09gEG4&feature=player_embedded#!

Its also spring assisted so lifting them isn't really that hard, I can do it with one hand. Lowering them is similar, they lock separately so once they're down you just lean on it with one hand to overcome the spring and flip the latch.

imho the worst part of the hammer is the flip stop because I have to put your fingers in close proximate position to a pinch point and - yes - this a very minor nit and no I've never actually pinched myself. Well that and having to drop the table to flip the dust shroud, but that seems to be a universal issue with combo machines and if you get the "digital" handle its very easy to accurately repeat.

I have no experience with the MM machine so I can't compare.

So far the Hammer with the straight knives has been quite good. If you go straight knives, do get a set of the cobalt knives as the HSS ones that it comes with will nick pretty quickly (the cobalt seems better, but I've also been more careful so ymmv). I did nick the factory straight knives within about 4 hours of use...

[Van Huskey]

First on the bandsaw side, no brainer. Get the MM16, best smaller (medium sized) saw on the market, period. Did I say period? Yep and I meant it. The N4400, the Laguna LT16HD and even the Aggazani B-18 just aren't built as strong.

On the J/P side the Hammer has some significant advantages not the least of which is the new fence and table design. That would be my choice. I would also get the Byrd head. Simple fact, how many people do you know with a Byrd head that say they long for straight knives? Talking to the Felder guys they only have Byrd heads for the A3 series but they want to add them for all their machines, from their perspective it is probably just to satisfy demand, but the demand is there, possibly for a reason. That said the disposable knife head takes out the pain of knife setting but then you have to toss out the blades when dull (on both sides). The more exotics or tough grain domestics and/or the more volume you put through the machine the more cost effective the Byrd becomes, at some point it will be cheaper. I think it is a positive for resell with the number of people that worship at the insert head church.

As far as shipping goes probably the only difference would be an extra liftgate fee since they aren't a spatula and baby teething ring Amazon can throw in the same box. Common carrier freight is mainly cubes and weight.


BTW if you have the money moving up in the Minimax bandsaw line is always a good thing but before I bought the MM20 (which I love) I would consider whether I would get more use out of the A3-41, being a bandsaw guy it pains me but I think I would rather have the MM16 and the A3-41 than the MM20 and the A3-31 and the A3-41 is priced well right now.

[Charles B Thomas]

Hey Jeff, Located in Denver - so shipping plays into the game. I'm about 98% ready to jump on the hammer "band" wagon. I'm new to SawMillCreek and find its great to hear what the community, individuals like yourself, really thinks.

[John Morrison60]

I have an FS30 with Byrd Head. The head is terrific, cuts the sound, and eliminates tearout on figured wood.
I can do the changeover in less than 3 minutes, and that includes fumbling around with the D.C. hose.
Minimax support and service is terrific also.

Good luck with your selection.
John

[Van Huskey]

BTW I did not mean to give the impression the N4400 is not a good saw, it is. It is the best saw at its price point. The MM16 is a pretty hefty jump in price and if one never expects to need the extra capacity and strength of the MM (or need the extra throat capacity of the Hammer) then the N4400 may represent better value to someone. But on a pure which one would I rather have price/value excluded I would pick the MM16 or better yet the MM20. As another wrench in the works I think the Aggazani B-24 is the best "buy" in new Italian saws, large wheels and just under 17" of resaw and a pretty steller price (last time I checked). YMMV

[David Kumm]

A Felder guy just posted an A3 31 on the owners group today. $2400. Had a new Hammer slider as well. Dave

[Chris Colton]

Hi Charles,

I am fortunate to live close to the east coast office of Hammer/Felder but that's not why I finally bought the N4400 and the A3-31.

A little background: I do a lot of hand work, including milling wood with a #7 and finishing with a #4. I do not have a table saw - I do have the Festool saw and track system. Although I may ultimately buy a tablesaw, and it will be either a Felder or a Hammer, my plan was to mill woood using my bandsaw and J/P. Milling by hand, I did an entire wall of walnut cabinets in my kitchen by hand, just took too long! So, about two years ago I bought a bandsaw, Chinese manufacture, which had some clever features, but was not of great quality despite being pricey; e.g., table was out by 3/16 inches. Got a new table, after they went through 5 to find one flat one, and sold it!

I decided then and there that I would buy only quality machines - for home shops. I also wanted a good value. When I first looked at the Hammer N4400 (when I bought the first BS), I passed becasue it did not have a foot pedal emergency stop - I am very concerned about safety (I make more mistakes than you could imagine). When I began looking again, they had updated the saw with the foot brake and a larger resaw capacity. For me, the saw is the perfect size. I have resawn 12" walnut with no trouble and, for the first time, recently put on a 1/4 inch blade which ran fine on this big saw. Fit and finish are superb. Importantly, customer service is exceptional - just as good as the machines.

After buying the N4400, I bought the A3-31 - no more milling by hand! I love this machine too. Heavy duty, easy to operate, crisp, smooth finish and switching between jointer and planer is very easy! As some of the other posters have mentioned, I also use the straight blades and have had great results.

I voted for the N4400/A3-31 package above. You have listed quality machines, so you will not be disappointed, but I think the value is with Hammer. A great product for a great price that will do the job and last forever and a superb team to back up their products.

Good luck!

Chris

[Charles B Thomas]

Thanks Chris, I appreciate giving a little background, knowing your point-of-view helps me to understand your advise. I too do (did) a *lot* of handwork, the only thing heavier than my #7 is a Stanly 608 Bedrock. At the beginning I started with a scrub plane and worked down through a set of bench planes. At 45 my woodwork has changed; I handle sheet goods with a Festool saw and track, recently cut the TS rails down to a smidge under 27 (from 36) just to make it all fit into 1/2 of the garage. I make a lot less ply-cabinets and more solid furniture. A pinched neck nerve and a year of recovery has taught me I can't do all the milling by hand. Now that I've heard what the community has to say and slept on it, I think I'm ready to order some new machines.

I'm curious what you think of their outfeed accs tables. I'm considering ordering 2 of the 400 (15") and rails for both A3-31 and BS. In my gut I also think they probably aren't needed for most all jointing and seem to be a nicity for thicknessing outfeed of short peices and cool they work on the BS too. The word on the net is the digital readout for the thicknesser is a "Have to have" and not really an "optional accessory" - I'm getting the metric version - $70 cheaper and Festool has already converted my thinking to metric.

[fred west1]

Charles, I too live not too far from the east coast office of Felder and primarily work with hand tools. I few months back I expanded my shop down in my basement and picked up the A3-31. It is a fantastic, rock solid machine and I could not be happier. The change over takes approx. 60-90 seconds and simply could not be easier. Like most of the people above, I too have the straight knives and they give me a beautiful cut. Once you get the A3-31 set up correctly it is almost impossible to knock it out of alignment. As one of their technical staff said, I could take the machine and lie it on its side and it would still hold its alignment. Lifting the tables is done one at a time and is incredibly easy as is lowering them. I had initially decided to get the Byrd cutters but was talked out of them. Pretty amazing given the extra cost for them to tell me to save my money and they were correct at least in my case. Finally the service is excellent and you will never regret this machine. Fred

[Ryan Mooney]

I'm curious what you think of their outfeed accs tables. I'm considering ordering 2 of the 400 (15") and rails for both A3-31 and BS. In my gut I also think they probably aren't needed for most all jointing and seem to be a nicity for thicknessing outfeed of short peices and cool they work on the BS too. The word on the net is the digital readout for the thicknesser is a "Have to have" and not really an "optional accessory" - I'm getting the metric version - $70 cheaper and Festool has already converted my thinking to metric.

I have one of the accessory extension tables on the outfeed of the planer, very worth it there imho as the outfeed table is just a bit short and it helps hold the piece up while you get around the machine. If you mostly do 4' or shorter pieces, it would be fine without, if you do longer worth it.

I bought an extra rail with the idea that I can move it up to the infeed of the planer if need be, but mostly haven't bothered. Getting the rails aligned is a little fussy but once they are you can take on/off the extension itself pretty easily. The rails are pretty cheap in relative terms so that may be an option as well (granted its yet-another thing to move around.. but mostly you don't..).

[Charles B Thomas]

Now that I am ready to plunk my money down I'm not so sure the Byrd head is for me. I don't stand at the planer/thicknesser for hours on end; I run some, but not lots, of figured woods. I'm highly adept at hand-planing so cleaning up is SOP and don't expect a machine to do what my Japanese hand planes can.
If I understand all the ups and downs, if you don't mind the noise, sharp colbalt (or HSS?) straight knives from Hammer give an overall better surface than Shelix cutters (at least for the first couple hundred feet). And if got the switchover details right, the hammer 3 knife system is 9 allen screws and 3 flips, but a bryd is 24screws and 24 flips which probably doesn't matter either way (the difference is 1/2 to 2/3s of a coffee break).

[Chris Tsutsui]

There are "rumors" online of vibration issues because the Hammer bandsaw spine used a thinner gauge sheet metal to save on costs compared to say the Felder bandsaw.

The Felder Bandsaw is a whole new ball of wax though and I would look at the Felder bandsaws. I voted for the minimax bandsaw myself because the wheel is solid cast iron and seemed the beefiest in its class. The Laguna Bandsaw is what I have and it's not too shabby either. It's really up to you as far as shipped costs and features.

Getting the new A3-31 is a no brainer for me... it would depend if my budget allowed the digital readout wheel and byrd head.

Even Grizzly has some decent bandsaws for the price, I wouldn't be ashamed to have a nice industrial grizzly bandsaw sitting next to an A3-31. :)

[Van Huskey]

Thanks Chris, I appreciate giving a little background, knowing your point-of-view helps me to understand your advise. I too do (did) a *lot* of handwork, the only thing heavier than my #7 is a Stanly 608 Bedrock. At the beginning I started with a scrub plane and worked down through a set of bench planes. At 45 my woodwork has changed; I handle sheet goods with a Festool saw and track, recently cut the TS rails down to a smidge under 27 (from 36) just to make it all fit into 1/2 of the garage. I make a lot less ply-cabinets and more solid furniture. A pinched neck nerve and a year of recovery has taught me I can't do all the milling by hand. Now that I've heard what the community has to say and slept on it, I think I'm ready to order some new machines.

I'm curious what you think of their outfeed accs tables. I'm considering ordering 2 of the 400 (15") and rails for both A3-31 and BS. In my gut I also think they probably aren't needed for most all jointing and seem to be a nicity for thicknessing outfeed of short peices and cool they work on the BS too. The word on the net is the digital readout for the thicknesser is a "Have to have" and not really an "optional accessory" - I'm getting the metric version - $70 cheaper and Festool has already converted my thinking to metric.


Considering you were thinking about the Byrd and also the accessory tables, do this get a quote on the A3-41, the tables on the jointer are longer so it is less likely that you will need them. Bottom line the A3-41 will be cheaper than the A3-31 with a Byrd head and tables/mounts.

Just a comment on your time to change evaluation, though the Byrd will take longer to change to new blades it will have to be done MUCH less frequently, this will save time over the long run. In the end it is insignificant for a hobbyist but adds to the cost savings for a professional.

Since it seems you may want to stay with all one manufacturer and are leaning to Felder you might see what you could get the Felder FB 600 for it isn't "on sale" now but Felder does negotiate.

[David Hawxhurst]

i voted for the a3-31 and other bandsaw. haven't had the chance to see the n4400 in person yet (will this weekend). felder is going to be at the fredricksburgh, va woodworking show this weekend. they wouldn't have power to turn on the anything. i got the felder fb 600 bandsaw. the fb 600 has cast iron wheels, but maybe a bit larger than your looking for. for my price range at the time it came down to the agazzani or felder. for me felder won out because they're only 150 miles or so me. i don't think you'll go wrong with any of the bandsaw's you've listed. you may possible get a better deal when buying two machines at once.

[Sean Kinn]

I'm curious what you think of their outfeed accs tables. I'm considering ordering 2 of the 400 (15") and rails for both A3-31 and BS. In my gut I also think they probably aren't needed for most all jointing and seem to be a nicity for thicknessing outfeed of short peices and cool they work on the BS too. The word on the net is the digital readout for the thicknesser is a "Have to have" and not really an "optional accessory" - I'm getting the metric version - $70 cheaper and Festool has already converted my thinking to metric.

Charles,
Last fall I purchased an A3-31 and an N4400 with this exact setup. I feel it is perfect for my use, and I have absolutely no regrets. The tables provide you with all sorts of flexibility. I typicially leave both of them mounted to the outfeed of the planer table, and only move them to the jointer table or bandsaw table as needed. With just the extension tables I am able to joint/plane/cut probably 99% of what I need to do, without dealing with some tipsy portable roller feed stand. The digital readout is a must have if you want to be able to very quickly move the planer table to an exact setting. I was a little hesitant when I purchased it, but I am so glad that I did. I just processed about 100bf of white oak for my sirst project with my new machines, and the only problem I had was keeping up with emptying the bin on my dust collector. The A3-31 with the stock head made short work of jointing and planing from 4/4 to 3/4, and the motor only slightly showed any sign of strain when I fed a 11" piece through the planer at essentially it's maximum cut depth (i.e. way more of a cut than I had planned to). Even then it chugged right through the entire 6' board and left a flawless finish. I'm still running the stock knives, and thus far I'm glad I didn't spend the extra $$ on the Byrd. In my mind noise is not a concern when running a big tool like this. I'm wearing the hearing protection either way, and I am not standing in front of this machine 8hrs/day.

Like several of the other posters here, I fealt the N4400 was perfect for my real world needs. I lusted after a MM16 for awhile, but once I truly evaluated my real world uses I didn't feel the significant additional investment was worth it for me. Thus far I am 100% happy with the N4400. It passes the "nickel test" with flying colors, has ample power, and ample capacity in a fairly compact package.

[Bijesh Jacob]

I have owned the A3-31 for close to 1.5 years and agree with the comments above. The machine is quite solid and easy to use. It is also quite powerful and impossible to bog down and the has quite a few features.

Also considering I have a Rikon now - I voted for the Hammer bandsaw, obviously because it is quite a step up from the Rikon but also because I have looked at it closely quite a few times and seems to be very robust machine.

[Chris Colton]

Hi Charles,


A pinched neck nerve and a year of recovery has taught me I can't do all the milling by hand.

Sounds like we have a lot more in common than just woodworking! Four spinal surgeries later...I am still at it! I hope you don't have any more trouble with your back! If you do, I have a great surgeon to recommend.



I'm curious what you think of their outfeed accs tables. I'm considering ordering 2 of the 400 (15") and rails for both A3-31 and BS. In my gut I also think they probably aren't needed for most all jointing and seem to be a nicity for thicknessing outfeed of short peices and cool they work on the BS too. The word on the net is the digital readout for the thicknesser is a "Have to have" and not really an "optional accessory" - I'm getting the metric version - $70 cheaper and Festool has already converted my thinking to metric.

First, I have neither the outfeed tables nor the digital readout. I am not a professional and, as I said, I work with hand tools a lot, so I find the tape on the machine to be sufficient for me. Would I like the digital readout - yes! Maybe I am just too cheap. I would also like the outfeed tables, but I really cannot comment. I suspect they would be very helpful but, again, I don't have any experience with them.

Good luck! Great choice!

Chris

[Chris Lee]

The only thing I can add is that I am going through the same decision process as you, and I have chosen the Hammer A3-31 and the N4400. I have been researching bandsaws for a while now and the Hammer seems to offer a lot of features for a good price. I have read comments from hundreds of N4400 owners and for the most part they all seem to love the saw. I was between the Hammer and the Agazzani B-18 and the B-18 is 1k more plus $300 to ship. I couldnt justify it. I was able to preorder the demo saw that will be at the Fredericksburg show this weekend (so all you going to the show be gentle with her:D) for $500 off list so that sealed the deal for me. I believe they are offering $300 off list for the show, so you may want to check in with them.

I would have bought the demo A3-31 from them this weekend, but someone beat me to it. But it will be in my shop soon hopefully. It too seems to be well liked by all that own it. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Charles B Thomas]

Thanks Chris, I'm 99% there - I would call my order in right now, but I was offered to see a new one this Sat so I'm waiting mainly to make my final accessory decisions. From what's been said on this thread and futher online research I've talked myself out of the Byrd Shellix head.

I looked at the Hammer bandsaw in '08 (before one or more rounds of redesign), then I didn't think it offered the right value - smaller std motor, lower resaw height, no foot brake (not a bit issue for me). Now that's all changed and maybe a fence re-work plus a couple other things that might be excaping me. Today it's quite a saw for the $. I was telling someone I thought it was value-price, something you do not really say about that brand in general.

[Jerry Szeflinski]

I own a Hammer A3-31 JP machine with the Byrd Helix cutter head. The cuts are super, and very less noisy as compared with the 3 bladed version. My model has the two piece infeed/ outfeed tables- have not found this to be difficult to adjust when changing from joiner to planner mode. Hope this will help you in your decision making. Have found the staff at Hammer to be most attentive in any questions relating to my purchase.

[Brian LaShomb]

What a timely thread.... I'm also primarily hand tools, but looking to purchase the same setup. The A3 31 and n4400 seem like a great setup to grow with. One interesting feature on the n4400 was the ability to run sanding belts (seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf66smVTnxs#t=1m31s)). The part (http://www.felder-tooling.us/8head-zub-00320/8head-zub-05020/813010-detail-0120.html) on Felder's site also describes being able to use the jig to cut circles as well. It's a little spendy of an attachment, but it would be nice for sharpening inshaves, drawknives and the like.

I contacted Hammer for a quote but didn't get any response. Maybe they don't have reps out here in the Midwest?

[Van Huskey]

What a timely thread.... I'm also primarily hand tools, but looking to purchase the same setup. The A3 31 and n4400 seem like a great setup to grow with. One interesting feature on the n4400 was the ability to run sanding belts (seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf66smVTnxs#t=1m31s)). The part (http://www.felder-tooling.us/8head-zub-00320/8head-zub-05020/813010-detail-0120.html) on Felder's site also describes being able to use the jig to cut circles as well. It's a little spendy of an attachment, but it would be nice for sharpening inshaves, drawknives and the like.

I contacted Hammer for a quote but didn't get any response. Maybe they don't have reps out here in the Midwest?

They just have two US offices, in DE and California. Give them a call, that always works much better.

[Charles B Thomas]

One interesting feature on the n4400 was the ability to run sanding belts (seen here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf66smVTnxs#t=1m31s)). The part (http://www.felder-tooling.us/8head-zub-00320/8head-zub-05020/813010-detail-0120.html) on Felder's site also describes being able to use the jig to cut circles as well. It's a little spendy of an attachment, but it would be nice for sharpening inshaves, drawknives and the like.



Hey Brian, I asked the sales rep about the sanding attachment and sanding belts; he did not know anything about them - even after I showed him where in the video to see it. After he did some looking it sounds like the sanding attachemnt is not available through Hammer-USA (or on US versions of the 4400); still not sure if he can get sanding belts for the N4400. The circle cutting jig is different from the sanding jig and requires the ext. tables and table mounting rails. I think most of us would make our own jig - their design is kind-a clever.
I have used sanding belts on a Delta 14" w/ 12" riser; a simple fence can be made for sanding.

The quote I recently got was 2999.00 for the N4400 ($200 off list) + accessories.

FYI, to let you know how my thinking has changed, I started this poll/thread heavily in favor of both the Hammer units. Since talking with Eric @ MM, rethinking the need for a Byrd head and re-evaluating I'm now leaning much more toward MM for a J/P. The only think I don't like in the MM is the taller table (33ish vs 35 for FS-30), and how you adjust the fence and euro-guard to flip the tables.
I always favored the MM-16 (actually a bigger monster than I really need), I think the N4400 would be just fine save a couple fine points - the fence can't be used right of the blade (important to me when the tables are tilted 45) and doesn't have drift adjustment (Hammer suggests one can loosen and shim the rails). Dust extraction is another.
I think I would be happy with the Hammers, but broaden my looking to include a 5-in-1 combo (CU-300 Smart). Since I am planning on getting a SawStop soon, still only have 1.5hp router-table but do extensive router/ pattern cutting and work in 1 car bay mostly by myself the jump to a big machine makes some sense.
The space savings I think is worth the switch-over inconvience.

[mreza Salav]

I am surprised at the price of N4400 as it's around $2200 here in Canada and things are always (well, almost always) cheaper down there in US.
You can get a MM16 here for $2900 and I would be surprised if it is more expensive in US. At that price I'd get the MM16 for sure.

[Greg Portland]

I think I would be happy with the Hammers, but broaden my looking to include a 5-in-1 combo (CU-300 Smart). Since I am planning on getting a SawStop soon, still only have 1.5hp router-table but do extensive router/ pattern cutting and work in 1 car bay mostly by myself the jump to a big machine makes some sense.
The space savings I think is worth the switch-over inconvience.I've seen used Felder 731 Pro machines in the $10k-$13k range in mint condition. This is just a little more than a new Euro J/P + Sawstop. IMO, given your overall shopping list I'd look @ used combo machines.

[Charles B Thomas]

[QUOTE=The quote I recently got was 2999.00 for the N4400 ($200 off list) + accessories.

I mis-typed and mreza is correct; the price quoted was 1999.00.

[Charles B Thomas]

Maybe I don't know where to look, but I haven't found any used machines within 4 states of CO (both J/Ps and 5-in-1s); Seems like they sell quickly, be it Felder or Minimax. Makes me think if I do splurge on a combo and end up not liking it there is oportunity to sell it used (new$ - used$ = rental$)

[Greg Portland]

Maybe I don't know where to look, but I haven't found any used machines within 4 states of CO (both J/Ps and 5-in-1s); Seems like they sell quickly, be it Felder or Minimax. Makes me think if I do splurge on a combo and end up not liking it there is oportunity to sell it used (new$ - used$ = rental$)
Here's one for sale in AZ: http://macsblogboard.blogspot.com/p/used-machines.html

There are frequent listings on the Felder Yahoo! Groups message board (covers more than Felder).

[Brian LaShomb]

Hey Brian, I asked the sales rep about the sanding attachment and sanding belts; he did not know anything about them - even after I showed him where in the video to see it. After he did some looking it sounds like the sanding attachemnt is not available through Hammer-USA (or on US versions of the 4400); still not sure if he can get sanding belts for the N4400. The circle cutting jig is different from the sanding jig and requires the ext. tables and table mounting rails. I think most of us would make our own jig - their design is kind-a clever.

Yeah, It's tough to justify as well when you can get a Grizzly 1" belt sander for as as little as $100. Thanks for the info!


FYI, to let you know how my thinking has changed, I started this poll/thread heavily in favor of both the Hammer units. Since talking with Eric @ MM, rethinking the need for a Byrd head and re-evaluating I'm now leaning much more toward MM for a J/P. The only think I don't like in the MM is the taller table (33ish vs 35 for FS-30), and how you adjust the fence and euro-guard to flip the tables.
I always favored the MM-16 (actually a bigger monster than I really need), I think the N4400 would be just fine save a couple fine points - the fence can't be used right of the blade (important to me when the tables are tilted 45) and doesn't have drift adjustment (Hammer suggests one can loosen and shim the rails). Dust extraction is another.
I think I would be happy with the Hammers, but broaden my looking to include a 5-in-1 combo (CU-300 Smart). Since I am planning on getting a SawStop soon, still only have 1.5hp router-table but do extensive router/ pattern cutting and work in 1 car bay mostly by myself the jump to a big machine makes some sense.
The space savings I think is worth the switch-over inconvience.

I looked into the Hammer 5-in-1, the CU 31. The biggest downside from watching them use it in the video is that your constantly spinning the thing around to make use of all its functions. I figured I'd rather have the A3 31 and the b3 winner and have a faster setup for same or even less money.

I did get a phone call from the rep today, he said he's sending over pricing. Right now their website shows 2k for the n4400 and 3k for the A3 31. I imagine to see that same pricing. Maybe they'll throw in an extension table or something.

Whats the FS-30 priced at? $4k?

[Chris Lee]

Hey Charles,

Not sure which office your dealing with, but i was offered $300 off list right off the bat by the east cost office. They were a real pleasure to work with and i will be doing business with them in the near future. Jesse was great.

I just got my N4400 home on Sunday after the woodworking show and i have been really impressed. I Put a plug on it and off she went! I only had the 3/4" blade they threw in, but i resawed 1/8" hard maple and it cut just as fast as i could feed the saw. That 4hp motor has tons of power. The fence i am on the fence about. I noticed virtually no drift do the lack of a simple drift adjustment isnt bothering me too much. I had planned on ordering the driftmaster for it, but with how accurate the standard fence has been so far i will probably hold off on that for a while. I did order a resaw king blade for it though.

The only thing that threw me was the keyed doors. I wasnt expecting them as they arent in any of he pics or imfo from Hammer. Not a big deal, im more afraid Ill lose that key! All in all i am really happy about the purchase. Great machine for the price.

[Rod Sheridan]

Nice band saw Chris.

Many safety standards require a door that's opened with a tool, limiting access to authorised operators. This will become more common in North America as safety standards become more uniform.

Enjoy your saw...............Rod.

[Van Huskey]

Chris, glad you got the saw! I do want to see some pictures!

[Brian LaShomb]

Laguna has a the Robland NLX31 combo machine for $5500:
http://www.lagunatools.com/monthly-specials/NLX31-Combination-Machine

[Charles B Thomas]

List on the FS30 is really $4,295. Cut and pasted the wrong price.

[Chris Lee]

Here's few pics of the N4400 in case anyone is interested. If anyone wants detailed pics, since the information Hammer has out there doesnt seem to be up to date just let me know.

So far Im enjoying the saw. Fit and finish are real nice. All the castings are clean and what I would expect from a machine like this. I discovered last night that the fence can be used on both sides of the blade so that was a nice find even though there isnt much room on the table to the right of the blade. Once i get the resaw king i will run some bigger wood through it to see how it handles, but everything to date has been fantastic. Excuse the mess - I'm waiting for a new shed to get my shop free of yard junk!

226488226489226490226491226492

[Charles B Thomas]

Yea Chris, let's see some pictures. That would be awesome. I would like to see what it looks like underneath the tables (above the foot-brake). And how about that foot-brake, how is that working. And what do you think of the dust collection? Inquiring sawyers want to know.

[Charles B Thomas]

Greg, thanks for the link; that's one fantastic offer - if I can convince myself that would fit into my garage (it won't! ) I'm giving that guy a call.

[Chris Lee]

I'Hey Charles,

I'll take a few pics of the underside of the tonight when I get home. My biggest satisfaction was the build of the saw. Everything is clean and well made. I have had experiences with cheap and expensive saws that often had poor casting and quality issues. Its nice to see everything the way I expected it to be. The foot brake workes great. The foot brake is connected to a micro switch that cuts the power to the motor when you step on it and then has a friction brake that stops the wheel. Brings the blade to a nice quick stop. Dust collection as with most bandsaw is pretty poor. the only port is at the bottom of the saw behind the foot brake. It picks up the dust that falls below the table for the most part, but I have to figure out how to get something closer to the table or above the table to catch more of the dust.

[Hugh MacDonald]

I can't speak on the J/P combo, as I don't have one and have never used one. Personally, I would avoid that combo setup as long as space never becomes a pressing isuue. I have a Mini-Max Formula 410 16" jointer with a Byrd Shelix that is, as far as I'm concerned, the only jointer I'll ever need.

But I did buy the Hammer N4400 about a year ago, and it continues to impress. Before purchasing, we considered a number of bandsaws, including a few Lagunas and the MM16. The MM saws are usually considered the best or among the very best, and rightly so--just ask Van Huskey. But the MM16 was $1,000 more than the Hammer and thus more than a little out of our price range. We also didn't utterly require its greater resaw capacity. Until then, we hadn't owned any Hammer/Felder machines, only SCMI and Mini-Max. But after reading some positive reviews and advice here on SMC (thanks, Van Huskey), and after speaking extensively with Ruan at Felder (who is pure class), we decided on the Hammer, and we continue to be more than satisfied with that decision.

If you absolutely must resaw 16", and money is no object (or if you can at least stretch to afford and justify it), then, as Van Huskey says, go with the MM16 or MM20. But I believe that, at its price, the N4400 represents the best value in high-quality European bandsaws anywhere at the moment. Don't let that word "value" inform your opinion of this saw in regard to any aspect but price, however. There is nothing "value" about this saw. It is extremely well built. The 4hp motor seems to have power to spare. I've resawn 11" of hard, figured white oak and the saw didn't flinch. The bandsaw wheels are very heavy, and adjust easily for alignment. The table is flat, and tilts smoothly and precisely with its rack-and-pinion setup. And you can adjust for drift by adjusting the attitude of the steel fence bar with a pair of wrenches. I've had no problem whatsoever with vibration. The N4400 will do everything you ask of it, 12" and under, with aplomb.

I probably can't say enough good things about the level of service from Hammer/Felder. From the beginning I dealt with Ruan, who was always helpful and honest. He won't sell you into a machine you don't want or need, he doesn't bash the competition, and he will work with you on price. Aside from the quality of their machines, he is one of the main reasons Felder and Hammer have become more recognizable and respected names in the woodworking community in the US. After we purchased the saw, we were contacted on several occasions, to make sure the saw had arrived safely, was working well, and that we were satisfied with our machine. I've never enjoyed that kind of service when buying machines from other companies. Considering some of the machines that Felder sells, we weren't even big-time customers. But when we do buy a large machine in the future, it will almost certainly be a Felder. It's important for me to know that if something ever does go wrong, I can make a call and start sorting out the problem immediately.

[Van Huskey]

I am not sure if I have used the word "value" in regard to the N4400 in this thread, if I have I mean it in the best possible way. There just isn't a new bandsaw in the under $2K (or right above) range I would rather have. In fact I personally recommended it to one of the owners in this thread.

[Van Huskey]

226492

Chris, I see you got the horizontal resaw version of the saw! Maybe thats why you got such a good deal, despite the fact horizontal resaw bandsaws tend to be much more expensive.

Although, I am a fan of the MM series bandsaws anyone that looks closely at these pictures can see the care and quality of this saw, this is not a saw that you will regret your purchase unless you under-estimate your capacity needs.

[Chris Lee]

Hey Van,
I've been having so much fun getting to know the saw, I didnt even realize I forgot to edit the photos. Oops!

I couldnt agree more about the quality, it has impressed me tremendously. Here are some pics (Sorry for my sideways photos - I have to work on that) of the underside of the table as Charles requested and its so nice to see an attention to detail and what feels like pride in craftsmanship. Maybe its just me but that means a lot to me.

I have to admit, I purchased an MM16 back in 2005 shortly after they switched to the 16" resaw and 4.8 hp motor. While it cut well, I had so many issues it i never really enjoyed the saw. Hopefully the MM police wont gang p on me for this, but the MM16 quality control was nothing close to Hammer/Felder in my cases. On my MM16, i had sloppy castings, a very cupped table, a bad switch, multiple bad micro switches and a few other small issues. It was minor for the most part, but for the cost I expected those type of things to be perfect for the most part. After seeing the Hammer, I knew I had found my happy place! Everything is quality. I know it doesnt have the capacity and heft of some of the Italians, but I'm very impressed with the saw and the company.

I thought the A3 31 was going to be coming home for me as they offered me the show demo while I was there, but I've really been thinking about going for a full combo machine. One of thoe decisions I have to tackle over the next 6 months, but whatever I do, will be a Hammer/Felder. I am really glad you suggested them to me and I thank you again for that!

226544226545226546

[Van Huskey]

Chris, MM did have a lot of electrical issues with the first batch of tall resaw bandsaws when they came out. That got sorted out with a change in switches and hasn't seemd to be an issue since. I think you are going to be really happy with the saw!

[Hugh MacDonald]

Van, you did indeed recommend it to me, as well as giving me a lot of helpful, cogent advice on bandsaws in general. I couldn't be happier with the saw and I'm still very grateful for the knowledge you passed on. You had mentioned once to me that the N4400 represents the best value in Euro bandsaws, which means, with a very few exceptions, the highest quality bandsaws being made today. Considering what's available, I can't but agree with your typically astute observation. So much so that I tend to repeat it when I discuss the saw. I just wanted to make clear that, apart from price, there are no "value" aspects or compromises in the saw. It is such a good saw at an almost unbelievable price that the N4400 should be dominating its segment of the market and beyond.

[Brian LaShomb]

List on the FS30 is really $4,295.

Yeah... my quote on the two Hammer machines was ~$5500 with freight. After I compared options and what my intentions were, I can't ignore all the professonals that use Grizzly and love them. For ~$4k I can get a G0490 8" Jointer with Parallelogram beds, a G0454 20" Planer, and the G514X2 Extreme bandsaw which won the Fine Woodworking Tool Guide 2012 "Ultimate Bandsaw" test. If I upgrade the planer to the "no set" knives and add in freight, it's ~$5k.

My intentions are hand tool work, these power tools are there to speed up the rough work. Anything going into a fine furniture project will see a smoothing plane at the least before finishing. The 12" jointer seems more useful if you cut your own timber, and even then, my need for 12" boards will be small. The larger planer however would be great for case sides and large drawer fronts. The bandsaw isn't as powerful, but I think the only way I'd be able to measure that I needed all 4HP, was if I was using a 3HP and it wasn't meeting my needs.

[Brian LaShomb]

I ended up building my shop space in Google Sketchup, and I can't fit the larger Grizzly machines in anyway. In fact I think a bandsaw as large as the N4400 is too big.

[Kenny Eaton]

Being the owner of a combo jointer/planer, I will chime in to say they do offer an excellent value and space savings over their large stand-alone counterparts. I own a 10" JET combo machine, and even though it's trash compared to what is being referred to in this thread, it's still an excellent value, especially for a low-budget woodworker such as myself. There is no other way I could have afforded, or fit in my shop, a 10" jointer. And even though my machine is not very high-powered, it still gives me excellent performance, even when used on highly figured woods.

I point this out only to state that while power and performance should be a concern to some degree, I wouldn't put it over and above ease of use. In my opinion, either of the machines listed will do a fine job, better than what the majority of hobbyist woodworkers have or can afford. What it boils down to is which would you rather swap over and which is more user-friendly.
It is well known that the JET is slow to swap over, but I thought that with it's massive jointing capacity, I could deal with that. To cut to the chase, I now have a 12-1/2" Craftsman granite bed planer which I use, and the JET is now used only as a jointer, as it became a hassle to swap it over time and again.

I really have no opinion on the machines in question here, they are so far out of my budget that I've never bothered to look at them. I did go the the sites and look them over in regards to this thread, and I think you have laid out some very, very excellent machines before us to choose from.
Just be sure you can deal with the hassle of swapping from planing to jointing and back again before you make your choice.

Good luck, I think you have made some really fine machinery choices for sure!

Kenny

[David Omatick]

A little late to this thread but there have been a number of good threads on this subject lately. The JPs and bandsaws.

Bandsaw Options - Do you all have any comments comparing the Laguna LT-14 SUV to the Hammer N4400? (Hammer has more power, harder to adjust for drift, some negative comments on guides, but superior fit and finish and customer service. Laguna has resaw adjustment edge, better guides? but spotty service and build.) I have thought for the last year the LT-14 SUV to be my dream bandsaw but now I think moving up the price ladder a few more rungs would be a worthwhile investment.

Jointer Planer Options - I have found a used DW735 to look at and maybe a Jet JJP12. I was ready to pull the trigger on the DW735 but have been putting it off. Adding the Grizzly GO706 12" jointer to the DW735 is a price wash to the A3-31. So in my mind the Hammer wins that battle. Sticking with Grizzly for new items instead of buying used I could go with a G706 and a GO453PX 15" planer and I am over $4,500 with tax and shipping vs $3K plus shipping for the Hammer. So again I think Hammer wins the battle in all areas except "conveniance" of owning separates. I am not convinced the spiral heads will provide enough benefit to justify cost. (And yes I have been searching for a used 8" jointer for years and have missed only 1 bargain deal on a Powermatic 4 hours away. To me it just sounds like the A3-31 wins hands down except for some folks who really think separates are the way to go.



Thanks,

David

[Van Huskey]

The Laguna LT14 SUV and Hammer N4400 are in two different classes. The SUV is Asian made and the N4400 is Austrian. The SUV is a very nice saw and worth a look if you are buying a 14" saw but if your budget allows the N4400 it is a no brainer. Laguna doesn't really have a DIRECT competitor to the N4400, their saws tend to be under it or over it.

[Curtis Wilkerson]

I have the A331 with the extension tables and I am very pleased with the ease of alignment of both the machine and the extension tables. As stated by others the alignment stays rock solid over time. The sales and support staff have been excellent. I also have the Felder FB 600 bandsaw with an extension table and the Laguna driftmaster fence. The addition of the extension table and the driftmaster fence, which give good in feed support, make ripping thick stock easy and a lot less dramatic than on the table saw.

[Rich Riddle]

Right now I am trying to decide between a FS-30 and a A3-31. Felder sent me literature on their unit but Minimax didn't send it. Someone indicated in March the MM unit was $3400 delivered. What are the primary differences between the two units?

[Charles B Thomas]

Hey Rich - from the research I've done, talking with reps from both companies and a couple owners here are the differences I found to be important to me. There's of other differences, but I think these are the "why would you get one or the other".
Table length - FS30 is about 5" longer on the jointer bed.
Power - each has beefy motors, but A3-31 uses 20amp circuit, FS30 takes a 30-amp.
Dust collection hastle: A3-31 takes extra hose (like 3-5') to flip the tables, FS30 requires moving the hose from one port to another.
Knives - each uses disposible knives: A3-31 is a 12.2" blade avail only from Hammer (and not in M4 steel), FS30 is a 11.8" Tersa knife - avail from 3rd party tooling vendors. Each is quick change and self-aligning.
Switch-over: the A3-31 tables flip as one unit and do not require the fence to be moved (but it looks easier with the fence to the rear). FS30 tables fip individually, and requires the fence moved forward or be removed.
Fence: A3-31 now has a center mount but doesn't look as beefy as the FS30.
Table height: A3-31 is mabye 2" lower than the FS30, a tall man won't mind, a short one like me might.

Don't get caught up with accesories; the ext. tables for the FS30 (same brand as Hammer resells) can be purchased for the FS30. The Hammer digital handwheel seems pretty cool, but for approx $300 other options are available. Each will need a seperate mobility kit - most owners like a long-axis option unlike what Hammer sells.

Both seem like very good machines - I haven't found an owner of either that don't like them.

[Rod Sheridan]

Charles neatly summed it up with "I haven't found an owner of either that didn't like them".

For me the big deciding factor was dealer support. MiniMax doesn't have good support in my area compared to Felder...........That made the decision easy........Rod.

[Van Huskey]

The Hammer's change over is smoother and quicker and has a bridge guard vs a pork chop. I always get the feeling the MM is slighty cruder and heavier just from looking at it and touching it, though the weights are very similar. The fit and finish is better on the Hammers I have seen. If I was going to pick one it would be the Hammer but by a very slight margin based on the fact I think I would be just as happy with either (though I don't like the MM's changover as much) I would just get the one that was cheaper. I prefer MM bandsaws to Felder but from what I have seen I prefer the Felder line of J/Ps.

[Rich Riddle]

The used MiniMax, Hammer, and Felders have slowed; hopefully, someone will post one soon. There are a few abused specimens on eBay, but they are in terrible condition.

[Rich Riddle]

Does anyone know the current price for the A3-31 from Hammer? The lead time? Anything else that is important?

[Rod Sheridan]

Does anyone know the current price for the A3-31 from Hammer? The lead time? Anything else that is important?

Hi Rich, you can obtain the base price from the Felder website.

After that, you can talk to sales and obtain the best price you can, as well as including the options you want.

I wouldn't purchase it without the digital height gauge for the planer...........Regards, Rod.

P.S. Mine is 4 years old, love it..

[Kevin Stricker]

I guess I am late to this thread too. It seems the Hammer J/P has some great new features, I bought my FS30 right before the new Hammer came out, but got a real good deal on it. Changeover is maybe a 1 minute to 90 second process on the FS30, so funny to hear the speculations of people who have never even seen one. The longest part of the process is raising/lowering the bed 4 inches to accomidate the dust shroud, and I think the a3-31 is in the same boat there.It is a very robust machine, and the Tersa knives are very durable and easy to change. I can get clean cuts on hard maple with pretty dull blades as long as I pay attention to grain direction. A Byrd head would be nice if you worked a lot with exotics, but for common domestic hardwood I would save your dough.I am up in Evergreen if you want to come up and check out my FS30 in person. There is also one at Red Rocks Community college in the FWW dept you might be able to check out, the contact there is Patrick Shannon at RRCC. One of the TA's there, Peter Rudy has a MM16 he could tell you about. I think you would be hard pressed to go wrong with either company. Good Luck.

[Van Huskey]

Does anyone know the current price for the A3-31 from Hammer? The lead time? Anything else that is important?

$2,999 currently. Usually the lead time is 1-2 months but it changes all the time.