Still standing at the tarmac, looking forward to flying. [Archive]

Brian Kent

02-23-2012, 8:53 PM

I am an avid hobbyest in flatwork and a long-time lurker at spinny things. (Like lathes, not spiny like lobsters).

I can carve out $1,000 from near future tax return and current savings. So I may be moving from lurking to active looking.
I invite your critique of my plans but will ZAP! each person that tells me to spend a little more now. I can delay and save more, but this season $1,000 is both a celebration and a limit.

Step 1: SDWT
I have attended one meeting of San Diego Wood Turners. I will spend $70 to join and get in on their classifieds and free DVD library ($930 left). Several Mentors have offered free lessons, which I will accept.

Step 2: Trying it
During Mentor lessons I can experience different lathes and see how quickly I will add bowls, or whether my bowl appetite will be satisfied making 10" bowls or 12" or 18" bowls.

Step 3: Look for excellent used mid-sized lathe (Jet 1442 or larger).
No reeves drives. No Harbor Freight. No rebuilding really old machines - that's not my hobby. Pulleys yes, overhaul no. Variable Speed preferred. Watch Craigslist. Ask mentors. Look for San Diego Wood Turners members who are upgrading. There were over 100 members present at the last meeting.

Step 4: If used tools can be included great. Otherwise see step 6.

Step 5: Backup Plan. Buy Delta 46-460 from Amazon. $599. Spend another $137.88 on either a stand, an extension, or a Nova G3 Chuck (For now I get to choose just one. The rest can come later). Now I have $193.12.

Step 6: Buy a face shield and my first 2 Thompson lathe tools. Make my own handles. (The rest can come later)

Step 7: Start turning my lumber and firewood pile.

Step 8: Backup Backup Plan: Put it in the savings account and earn more and buy something like Grizzly G0733 when I can afford it. I'm on my own timing. No outside pressure except from y'all. :D

Critique welcome

David E Keller

02-23-2012, 9:44 PM

Sounds like a carefully constructed plan and well thought out… That immediately makes me suspicious and distrustful!:D

I think the $70 for free mentoring and DVD library is a steal!

The choice of lathes is a very personal thing, but I've never heard anyone say, "My lathe is too large and too powerful!" If you can pick one up used from a club member, I think that would be the route I'd go.

Since you only specifically mentioned zapping people who suggested spending more, I'll suggest that you sell your table saw, planer, jointer, drum sander, and every hand plane within reaching distance… You can do whatever you want with the extra money!:D

John Keeton

02-23-2012, 10:00 PM

Step 4: If used tools can be included great. Otherwise see step 6.

Step 5: Backup Plan. Buy Delta 46-460 from Amazon. $599. Spend another $137.88 on either a stand, an extension, or a Nova G3 Chuck (For now I get to choose just one. The rest can come later). Now I have $193.12.

Step 6: Buy a face shield and my first 2 Thompson lathe tools. Make my own handles. (The rest can come later)

Step 7: Start turning my lumber and firewood pile.

Step 8: Backup Backup Plan: Put it in the savings account and earn more and buy something like Grizzly G0733 when I can afford it. I'm on my own timing. No outside pressure except from y'all. :D

Critique welcomeBrian, I was OK down to Step 4. Used tools will be very hard to come by, and may well be used up by the time you get them.

Step 5: While I favor a good deal on a used lathe, they are hard to come by, and the Delta is a super lathe. And, with the remaining money, I would suggest buying a reconditioned Nova chuck (SN2) from Teknatool. If you get the Delta, make a stand for it from 2x4s - cheaper and better. Been there and done that.

Step 6: While I do like my Thompson tools, you will need to learn sharpening - and it takes a bit of time (and metal) to get comfortable with that task. I would suggest the Harbor Freight $40 set of tools for awhile. I still use several of mine, and the price can't be beat. BUT.....back to that sharpening thing. If you buy the reconditioned chuck, and the HF tools, you should have enough for a slow speed grinder (unless you have one), and you really need the Wolverine setup with the Vari-grind jig.

Step 7: Good plan.

Step 8: Not a good plan. Lathe prices are going up much faster than any return on savings, and faster, it seems, than most folks can save up extra money. Whatever you do, you will be money ahead to do it now.

Jeff Fagen

02-23-2012, 10:12 PM

$70. bucks huu! Our club lost membership when it recently went from $12. to $25. lol

Brian Kent

02-23-2012, 10:17 PM

Ooooh. Good advice. That makes sense with the $40 set for practice, especially practice grinding.

Grinder question: I have a Delta 6" variable speed grinder and a combo sander. Will either of these work? Is that reconditioned Nova Chuck (SN2) better than the "Delta Industrial 46-461 Reversible Nova G3-D Woodturning Chuck"?

Brian Kent

02-23-2012, 10:18 PM

$70. bucks huu! Our club lost membership when it recently went from $12. to $25. lol
I guess it is $40 for local dues and $30 for NWWA dues.

Roger Chandler

02-23-2012, 10:20 PM

If I were in your shoes............I would go ahead with the Delta 46-460.............or just bite the bullet and go ahead with the G0733 from Grizzly..............unless I could find a used Jet 1642 evs for a decent price. It only hurts when you buy it, and that pain fades quickly when you use it a few times and turn something that someone will purchase from you [ 30 pens sold at $20 each will get you around $500 profit............not hard to do in short order!

Great that you can get mentoring, it will save you loads of time and mistakes. JK is correct.......you NEED a slow speed grinder and the Wolverine setup for sharpening gouges...........good luck Brian!

Brian Kent

02-23-2012, 10:35 PM

I looked up the Wolverine Grinding Jig. Do you recommend Vari-Grind or Vari-Grind 2 with its own base or something else?

Tim Chase

02-23-2012, 10:45 PM

Brian
The Delta should work but you'll likely need a riser/ wooden spacer, to get the proper spacing to the wheel center for the wolverine jig.
On the Nova chuck you'll likely get more / longer use out of the SN2 refurb as it will be the one you use more with your 2nd / larger lathe. I say this as I had a Delta midi lathe for 6- 8 months before I was shopping for a larger swing lathe.
I skipped the cheap tools and had little trouble learning to sharpen on a shop made wolverine style grinder jig (King Hepel) (maybe wrong name) but some one here will have a link to the online plans. It worked great but I picked up a wolverine on sale a few years later. With all the mentoring you'll get the sharpening down in no time. I was totally self taught so you'll learn many of the mistakes before ever making them. Keep your eye's open for a used Nova 16-24 lots of capacity 16" swing and the closest thing to variable speed your gonna find for the $ spent. I'd go for more lathe and less accessories adding chucks etc later as I had the extra $
JMHO
Tim

David E Keller

02-23-2012, 10:46 PM

Most prefer the original vari-grind it seems.

Wally Dickerman

02-23-2012, 11:21 PM

WARNING...Save your retirement money!!! Don"t let guys who speak of turning fruitcakes sway you...Get your table saw blade sharpened and forget woodturning.

Doug Herzberg

02-24-2012, 10:19 AM

Brian, I can tell you're a slow "decider" like me. It was two years from my first bowls on my old tube lathe (from the 70s) to my decision to join SMC in November 2011 (I was an occasional visitor and lurker before) and take the plunge. My windfall was a little larger than yours, but after my 18" band saw and GO698 lathe, it was gone.

Beware the pull of the Vortex! Since spending the entire windfall, I have purchased: Trend AS Pro, Woodcraft grinder, Wolverine grinding system & original vari-grind, Thompson 5/8" V bowl gouge, outboard extension, and the beginnings of a high speed sanding system (after reading Dan's post a few weeks ago). And that's just what I can remember. The grocery money and the education of your children is at risk!

JK is right - practice grinding on cheap steel. Don't wait too long to get a good bowl gouge, though. After a few times with the cheap tools, you will appreciate the good stuff. You can make your 6" grinder work, but what kind of wheels do you have on it? For me, the Woodcraft on sale with two wheels was a better deal than trying to make one of my high speed grinders work. I got the Vari-grind first, intending to make the sliding pocket, then, on a whim went to WC and paid full retail for the Wolverine system. Never looked back.

You will want a scroll chuck. I went with Grizzly and had some problems, but they took care of it under warranty. I just had to wait. If you can get the rebuilt SN2 for $99, it won't be much more, but that doesn't include the insert and the accessory jaws cost more than Grizzly.

Not to be too political, but I think inflation is in our country's future. I've been wrong about this for a long time now, but that hasn't stopped me from buying things while I can afford them. Interest is cheap, so you could buy a better lathe and figure out a way to pay back the loan (skip Starbucks and pocket $3/day=$90/month). Lathes are like motorcycles - I'll always want a bigger one.

And listen to Wally. Make sure you have retirement and family covered before taking the plunge. Somehow I think you've already considered that.

Don't be too quick to dismiss a really cheap lathe. You can learn a lot about whether this is the hobby for you without spending much at all. If I could figure out a way to get it to you, I'd give you my old tube lathe. It has a four jaw chuck, but not the self-centering kind. Still, you could get a SN2 and just buy a new insert to match the new lathe if you decide this is the sport for you.

Good luck.

Brian Kent

02-24-2012, 11:53 AM

Great advice, Doug. If I had a truck I'd take a trip to my old stomping grounds in Colorado and get that old lathe! (Born in Greeley, raised in Westminster, day trips to Colorado Sprints)

And yes, I am taking seriously the ongoing skyrocket costs. I am on the "Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University" plan. This is way subordinate to more important steps and I am practicing not using the card for hobby stuff. The only exception to the rule is safety equipment.

My plan was to wait until I could afford the initial purchase.

It is obvious I know nothing about this. Had no idea that a chuck and jaws were a separate purchase. I'll google "chuck insert" and find out what the heck that is.

The advise you guys are giving me is great!

Ken Fitzgerald

02-24-2012, 11:59 AM

Mike Svoma

02-24-2012, 12:12 PM

Welcome to the dark side, Brian. You do realize that this is how the vortex got a grip onto Keaton, and has since fully engulfed him? You can try to take it slow, but once you're in, you will not have a chance to turn back........

Wally Dickerman

02-24-2012, 12:29 PM

You've received some good advice. I agree that the Delta lathe at around $600 would be a good starting place.

If you're serious about the $1000 limit, for the time being forget about a chuck. You do NOT need a chuck to turn bowls. The lathe will come with a faceplate. Use that and glue blocks. Actually a more secure fixing than a 4-jaw chuck. I suggest that you buy a few quality tools instead of cheapies. Forget used tools. They'll probably be poor quality.

With what's left of the $ do yourself a very big a favor and get a lesson in basic woodturning. A good instructor will help you with tool techniques and more, but will also give you knowledgable advice on what tools to get to start out. Woodworking stores such as Woodcraft regularly have lessons available for not much money.

John Keeton

02-24-2012, 12:41 PM

Had no idea that a chuck and jaws were a separate purchase. I'll google "chuck insert" and find out what the heck that is.

The advise you guys are giving me is great!Usually, 50mm (2") jaws come with a Nova chuck, but the insert does not ($23). While the G3 chuck you mentioned comes threaded 1" x 8tpi, and will fit the Delta, the model you mentioned does not use an insert, so it will not fit any lathe with a larger spindle. The spindle on the Jet and PM is 1.25". There is a G3 chuck that is not the "D" model (Delta) and it will accept an insert.

Brian Kent

02-24-2012, 12:43 PM

James Combs

02-24-2012, 12:59 PM

Brian the chuck is made with a standard thread. The spindles on lathes have threads. Different lathe and chuck manufacturers use different threads. So a chuck insert matches the thread on the chuck with the thread on a specific lathe.

Welcome to the vortex Brian. Ditto what Ken said but make sure if you have to get the insert separately that it is a Teknatool branded one. We have found that 3rd party ones frequently have run-out issues. Also, you mentioned the Delta/Nova G3, there is no difference in it and a regular Nova G3 except that it is threaded for the 46-460(or any 1"-8tpi) spindle(ie no insert), this makes it not as versatile for upgrading. My recommendation for the lathe is go with the Delta 46-460 and make your own stand as suggested by J. Keaton.

Rick Markham

02-24-2012, 1:12 PM

Brian, Take a whole bunch of stuff and pile it all on the top of your tablesaw, once you are finished with that, cover your workbench and assembly table (if you have one) make sure you can't see any usable surface (this is very important.) Now take all your hand planes, and hand tools used for flat work... allow a nice layer of sawdust to gently settle all over them. Find a good place for all your hand planes and hand tools, make sure they are visible so you can enjoy them still but still out of the way from any possible turning endeavours (they will be sitting there for a long time, might as well make a permanent display now) If they are all old hand planes, then it's perfect, the sawdust adds to their "patina."

Now step back and look around... proceed directly to your wallet/bank book... look closely at how wonderfully full it is (even if it isn't wonderfully full, enjoy what little is in there) Depending on the tolerance level of your SWAMBO, this must be weighed carefully on a case to case basis, take a look at your warm comfortable spot in bed... look at bank book again... proceed to sofa, make yourself comfortable, it's going to be where you will be spending your "non turning" time. Take a good look at everything! Tablesaws, handplanes, handtools, bank accounts, and a warm comfy bed are never the same again.

Is it all worth it? HECK YEAH!!! Congrats Brian... and welcome to the Vortex! (P.S. it's already too late to turn back... you are already past the event horizon... resistance is futile... Oh and welcome, we are glad to have you, and we have cookies :D)

Brian Kent

02-24-2012, 2:13 PM

Rick, there seems to be a common theme in these warnings. I think it may already be too late since I am spending the money in my mind already.:rolleyes:

Ken Fitzgerald

02-24-2012, 3:06 PM

Brian,

The Delta 46-460 looks like a pretty nice lathe for the money.

One thing to consider as you think about buying a chuck as already stated by at least one other person. The Nova- SN2 may cost more initially but save you money in the long run should you ever upgrade to a larger lathe. The idiot turners here gave me a Jet lathe and an SN2 chuck when I got pushed into this vortex. When I upgraded to a PM3520B, it was just a matter of a $23 insert and the chuck and all the jaw sets I had purchased were useable on the new much bigger lathe.

Which ever lathe you decided on make sure it has a #2 Morse taper on both the spindle and tailstock. The largest number of accessories come with a #2 morse taper and if you ever upgrade to a larger lathe, those accessories would be transferable.

Michael E. Thompson

02-24-2012, 4:12 PM

Brian,

I agree with everything that has been said. Especially what Wally said about not needing a chuck. I find myself using my chuck less and less, a faceplate is much more secure. When you do purchase a lathe, the faceplate that comes with the lathe will not have enough holes. Drill many more. On my mini lathe, the faceplate had four, I drilled six more. Remember, more screws is better than longer. Also, don't use drywall screws, use steel/sheetmetal screws.

OT - I am a Ramsey-ite as well. Great club to be in, seven years debt free.

Mike

Ian Parish

02-24-2012, 6:03 PM

I looked up the Wolverine Grinding Jig. Do you recommend Vari-Grind or Vari-Grind 2 with its own base or something else?

I have a couple of couple of comments on the cheap tool set. Having a cheap tool set will give you many different tools for many different cuts and learning. Granted they are not all production quality and the latest Powder Metal technology, but you are only out 40 bucks. And you can learn to sharpen them all. Sharpening is one of the lost and mystical arts of spending money on turning. Make your own wooden gigs, read about sharpening and find something that is repeatable and works for you. A lot of production turners free hand sharpen, the rest of us, use what works. Beware that you could spend your whole $1000 on different sharpening setups. To start with all you really need is a good grinding wheel for your grinder and a good platform, and a homemade setup that acts like a wolverine.

I have a VS Jet 1642 and it was more than 1000 when I bought it used, but it is a great lathe if you can find one. (I also have a 12 inch HF 200 dollar lathe that I started on, it works great as a second lathe. I use it for lots of stuff like pens and small spindle work)

Good Luck,
Ian

Carl Civitella

02-24-2012, 6:26 PM

So everybody is telling you to get rid of your flat tools, send them to me. I do both, but on the other hand you might like doing segment bowls with a bazzzzziooon pieces and a quadrilllllion angles. :) Carl

Brian Kent

02-29-2012, 6:39 PM

Just for everyone's info, the Harbor Freight HSS sets are now $60 for ash handles, $70 for the red handles.

John Keeton

02-29-2012, 6:52 PM

Get you a 20% discount coupon! I suspect the increase is a part of the exchange rate situation and the cost of steel - along with increased costs of transportation all down the supply line.

Brian Kent

02-29-2012, 6:54 PM

The $20 difference isn't a problem. Just letting people know about the price change. And yes, I am looking for the coupon.

Also, for the reconditioned chuck, whenever I get that, is this the correct jaw set?
http://www.novatoolsusa.com/NOVA-Chuck-Accessory-20mm-Jaw-Set-JS20N.htm

and what insert does the 46-460 take?

David Warkentin

02-29-2012, 8:06 PM

First of all, RUN!! Well actually don't. Turning is fun! The Delta has 1x8 threads. I have one and really like it. If you wanna drive out to Alabama I'll sell you my PM 90. Ha ha ha....

John Keeton

02-29-2012, 8:17 PM

Also, for the reconditioned chuck, whenever I get that, is this the correct jaw set?
http://www.novatoolsusa.com/NOVA-Chuck-Accessory-20mm-Jaw-Set-JS20N.htm

and what insert does the 46-460 take?Brian, I believe the reconditioned chuck will come with 50mm jaws. That means in "expansion mode" the jaws are approx. 2" out to out. For compression, the smallest tenon is about 1.75" or so. They will work for whatever you might turn on the Delta.

What you are looking at are 20mm jaws - or a little over 3/4" in "expansion mode". They come in handy for small things, but in compression mode, they do not have a dovetail interior rim, and do not hold securely enough for anything of substance - certainly not to hold a bowl. I use mine for turning finials. You might want to wait on getting more jaws. Sometimes, you can find them on sale in "packages" of 4 or 5 sizes. Buy the set, and sell off what you don't want. And, occasionally, jaws will come up for sale in the Classified forum. I have bought, traded, and sold several. In fact, I have 2 or 3 extra sets now that I really don't need. But, they may come in handy at times.

Brian Kent

02-29-2012, 8:28 PM

Thank you John. I am not looking for extra jaws - just the standard. So you just saved me $30.

Brian Kent

02-29-2012, 8:43 PM

First of all, RUN!! Well actually don't. Turning is fun! The Delta has 1x8 threads. I have one and really like it. If you wanna drive out to Alabama I'll sell you my PM 90. Ha ha ha....

Depends - is it East Alabama or West Alabama? :)

David Warkentin

02-29-2012, 9:33 PM

Depends - is it East Alabama or East Alabama? :)

West Alabama, actually!

Brian Kent

02-29-2012, 10:25 PM

That's what I meant.

Keith Westfall

03-01-2012, 1:35 AM

Brian,

A couple of years ago, I came across a deal that I thought was pretty good. (and everyone deserves one of those once in a while!) A Delta LA 200 midi lathe, with a chuck (can't remember and I'm not home), 8" high speed grinder, about 10 cheap tools and a couple of good ones, about 30 cheap pen kits, pen mandrels, pen drills, 2 boxes of wood, and a whole lot of fun for $550.

Is all the stuff great? No.

I wish for a bigger lathe
a low speed grinder
better tools
etc

But I do have fun with it! Will I upgrade? Not sure. Would be nice, but I'm not a production turner, never have sold anything, and enjoy making the chips! Some will think we all need the biggest, latest & greatest, and the ability to up grade next month, but do we really? I needed more length for a project at Christmas, so I built an extension for my lathe. So far so good.

Don't delay getting started - and start where you can. The rest will come as your able to do it. If I had waited for what I thought I wanted (thought because I had no idea really) I probably still wouldn't be in it.

Lots of good advice on this thread and we all want to have better stuff 'through you', but you have a well thought out plan, so just GET WITH IT!!!

Nothing quite like it...

klw

Brian Kent

03-01-2012, 10:43 PM

With fear and trembling…

"Click"

Prashun Patel

03-02-2012, 9:01 AM

Brian- I can't say what's right for everyone else, but I can share my experience.

People 'round this forum (no pun intended) tend to recommend getting a lot of tutelage in person. However, SMC and Youtube will get you quite far in a short amount of time.

I'd buy the Delta 46-460. If you *really* need to upgrade, then you can resell it; it's a popular model. If budget is an issue, skip the extension and the stand. Make a stand. Buy the xtension later.

Buy a set of Benjamin's best HSS tools or HF tools. Learn to sharpen on cheap tools.

I have the same Delta VS grinder. It works very well. Get a blue Norton 3x wheel for it and a Varigrind jig (if you are planning to make bowls). You can make a Wolverine-style v-arm holder pretty cheaply yrself, but the Varigrind is great. Get the old style version; since its pivot is not captive, you can use it with a homemade v-arm.

If you really have to, you can defer the chuck purchase. However, I find it invaluable. I have a Nova G3. Before pulling the trigger, give Sean a call over @ Toolnut and check out any deals that might be coming up. They're great.

Baxter Smith

03-02-2012, 9:12 AM

With fear and trembling…

"Click"

Congrats on your choice Brian. You will enjoy it....whatever it was!

Dan Hintz

03-02-2012, 9:29 AM

Had to jump in...

All equipment is skyrocketing in price, not just lathes. I have a guy coming later this evening to purchase my Jet 1642 so I can get the Robust put up. He's paying $1,800 and a few Walnut blanks for it. I purchased it about a year ago for $1,300, but never got around to actually using it. I'm making a 40% profit on the sale, and he's still saving 15% on the cost of one shipped from the factory. Had I actually used the lathe, I would still likely be making a profit on it, just not as much. Makes my 401k gains look positively pathetic in comparison.

My Jet bandsaw? It now costs 25% more than 1.5 years ago (but I've used that quite a bit). Point being, don't worry too much about not getting your money's worth if you decide to upgrade in the future... even used, they hold their value quite well, assuming you don't abuse it.

On used tools... if you're a careful shopper, you can find some really good deals. People like Sorby's... it's a popular brand and good quality, so you'll see newbies buying them in kit form (5-6 tools in a box), only to sell them practically unused a year later when they tire of trying to turn. 50% off of new isn't hard to find, sometimes even cheaper. they can't harm the HSS with improper sharpening, so unless they've ground away too much of the tool it's a good deal. As a general rule, I won't pay more than 50-60% of new if the steel has ever touched a grinder... not because something's wrong, it's just a good bargaining point. Ironically, you'll often fund the junk tools selling for more than those with good steel... no idea on the train of thought involved there. If you purchase tools with a used lathe, I'll consider no-name tools as non-existent when determining purchase value of the lathe, and maybe add 25% of new value if the tool is of good quality. Just personal guidelines, YMMV...