Mexican made Nicholson files I tested are soft.

[george wilson]

I received a package of Mexican made Nicholson files a few days ago. They are triangular files. They look very well made,with sharp,accurately cut teeth. BUT,there have been discussions of them being soft here,so I took a fine cut USA made Nicholson mill file to the front edges of them. I was able to file a bevel about 1/32" wide before I got down to hardened steel. This means that the files are soft all the way through their teeth,even down to below the gullets.

I took an old new stock triangular USA made Nicholson,and it was hard as glass. I could not even begin to scratch the corner.

I do not know why these files are too soft. Maybe they are tempered at too high a temperature after hardening. They are very hard below the soft skin,but that leaves the teeth soft,too soft to file a saw made of 1095 steel,which even tried the durability of the old USA made Nicholsons. They might file lesser quality saws that are made of lower quality steel,or were hardened to a lower Rockwell number. Our saws were 52 Rockwel C.,as I am sure all of the expensive,small maker's premium saws. Even old Disstons were tempered several points below 52 R.C..

I could make these files useful by case hardening them in my electric furnace in a closed steel container of charcoal. Then,draw them till water would sizzle off them. That's how I treated my self made sets of riffler files. This was called "taking the snap out of it" in the old days. Unfortunately,how many of you are able to do this,or have the means?

I'm not bothering to order a #49 rasp,as I've seen pictures of how grossly oversize their teeth are. They look more like a horse rasp in the pictures! I don't need one anyway. Luckily I have a few USA made ones.

This is a truly low point in an American icon,and my favorite file brand. I doubt we will see improvements for years to come. It really is sad.

This is not a rant. It is the result of a careful test I made to these new triangular files,and I'm passing it on to you for your own conclusions.

I have searched for any rule against mentioning manufacturer's names,but haven't seen any. I know that the Saw Stop saw has been mentioned many times and discussed plenty,both positively and negatively.
I this post is against forum rules,please delete it and excuse my ignorance. I did not see Nicholson among our advertiser's list.

[Joe Bailey]

I was just (2 days ago) shopping for saw files online and noticed that the Nicholsons were made south of the border.
Just wanted to say thanks for this timely post, from one whose opinion in such matters, I respect.

[george wilson]

As far as I know,Grobets are still good. I really hate this. I could go to the hardware store and buy as good a file as ever needed. Now,I can't. I went to Home Depot,and bought out every one of their USA files still in stock.

[Shaun Mahood]

Am I correct in assuming that basically all new Nicholson files are made in Mexico? Is there a way to tell the difference in the store between the two?

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for the testing and the report George.

I will be needing to purchase some files soon. Guess it will be the Grobets.

I wonder if there is anyone at Nicholson who could do anything about the dismal state of their files and rasps.

jtk

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Am I correct in assuming that basically all new Nicholson files are made in Mexico? Is there a way to tell the difference in the store between the two?

The packaging seems identical - the only way I've been able to tell is to look closely at the stamping on the shank of the file itself, which can be hard to see sometimes.

I've had decent luck with the indian files from Sears, but I've got a feeling they wouldn't hold up to a proper test like George's either. After having ordered a few files from TFWW, I'm begining to understand the difference.

It's a shame really - as George said, it's nice to be able to just pick up a file at the hardware store when you need one . . .

[John Coloccia]

When did they go to Mexico? Must be a recent thing. Just the other day I was steering someone away from the Nicholson rasps but mentioned that their files still seemed to be just fine. Shoot.

Oh well....I have to order practically every other tool. I guess Grobet it is, but it's not a full solution. For example, I don't believe Grobet makes a cant saw file.

[David Weaver]

Shaun - the bottom right of the US made file packages has "USA" in large print, with the letters the colors of the american flag.

A fraction of the flat files left at my BORG are nicholson USA, with some made elsewhere. I think the needle files are made in china (but you'd expect that, because a pack of 6 is about the price of one grobet swiss needle file).

I agree with george, the files are soft, and you can mangle the teeth pretty easily. I haven't filed 1095 with the nicholsons yet, but I have filed a few vintage saws with them OK. They are just noticeably less hard than a grobet swiss or an old us made simonds (the two i've tried that are very hard).

The indian made simonds are OK, and I think those are what wenzloff sells, and both the grobet USA (not sure where they're made, i think USA refers to the pattern, and they're actually made in eastern europe or india) and grobet swiss are good.

I won't buy any more nicholson files made in mexico, there's no reason to when the grobet USA files are as cheap or cheaper, and so are the simonds. There's no reason to reward them for making a poor product, and when I requested information from cooper tools using their information request form, they didn't have the courtesy to respond to my question.

[john brenton]

I don't know about the triangular files, but I know that some of Nicholson's other files are made in Brazil. I have a little set of small files...not needle files, but like palm sized 4" files. (two rat tails, a half round and a flat) and they have a lot of life in them.

In trying the Mexican vs. the American Nicholsons it is night and day. With the Mexican made Nicholsons you're going to pay $5 for a file that you'll pretty much only be able to use a few times for maintenance, and maybe ONCE for a saw that needs some shaping.

[Dave Anderson NH]

There is no prohibition against naming any company name in a review of a product. The only things we ask are that complaints be supported by facts, such as in this case where you did a test. The two things we are trying to avoid are comments that are disparaging and general about the toolmaker themselves such as, "all Nicholson products suck", and piling on by others that also are unsupported but are just ranting against the maker. Comments by others in a thread that denote the same results or problmes are fine as long as they stick to the facts.

[george wilson]

The triangular files have a TINY circular logo on them,about the size of the sterling stamps used on jewelry,that say made in Mexico. If you buy a box of 12,the box looks like an old time Nicholson file box,with the fancy,19th.C. green label,but you soon see it's not a separate paper label,but a photograph of the paper and the label all in one.

Like David says,I think the package of 1 file also has made in Mexico printed on the back.

There are times when I am glad I'm 71. I have enough good stuff to carry me through.

This same thing happened years ago,when the Gibson guitar Co. was bought out,and moved from Kalamazoo to Nashville. It was run into the ground on the name until it was bought again some years ago,by someone who cared to revive the quality. I hope this happens with Nicholson SOON.

[george wilson]

Thank you,Dave. Maybe I'll post close up pictures of the end of the file that I filed a bevel on with the old USA made file. You know I am qualified to evaluate this tool. I made it clear that this was not a rant,just saddening fact.

The files looked beautifully made when I took them out. Nice,extremely accurate teeth,a nice,properly tapered tang and all. I wonder if they are not properly protecting the files' surfaces when they are heated up for hardening. They should be coated with something to protect then from decarbing. The thing is,if you put such a file into a hardness tester,the tester's diamond will poke right through the thin,soft crust,and show the hardness within,which,as I said,is fully hard. A not fully experienced tool maker may think all is well.

I would go to Mexico for free if they paid my way,and get this straightened out,but the top management would not believe me,or know who I am,most likely. They are probably not tool people. They are probably money people. The same applies to the upper management of many companies and museums.

I have not tested any other Mexican Nicholson files. I hate buying files when I now SUSPECT (but do not yet KNOW) that the same softness might be found in them. I bought about 10 NOS USA Nicholson 8" smooth mill files while they were still on the shelves of Home Depot. They,and some several hundreds of other NOS files I have will see me through.

[Chris Vandiver]

The Grobet USA files are made in India and are pretty good. The Swiss Grobet are made in Switzerland and a very hard.

[Chris Vandiver]

There is no prohibition against naming any company name in a review of a product. The only things we ask are that complaints be supported by facts, such as in this case where you did a test. The two things we are trying to avoid are comments that are disparaging and general about the toolmaker themselves such as, "all Nicholson products suck", and piling on by others that also are unsupported but are just ranting against the maker. Comments by others in a thread that denote the same results or problmes are fine as long as they stick to the facts.

Just curious but do you require toolmakers to be factual in their advertising, as well.:)

[george wilson]

I mentioned that Grobets are still good. But,now,you have to pay shipping that costs as much as the file!! So,better buy in quantity. I don't ever recall seeing Grobets on the shelves of any stores here,or in Richmond.

I know the owner of the Woodcraft store in Richmond,Va. But,I'll bet he has to buy what the parent company has to sell him,as it is a franchise.

Over the years,I have noticed that Nicholson flat files have gotten thinner and thinner. Their once tapered tangs were just stamped out of the flat stock. When they started individually plastic wrapping them,it was no longer possible to examine each one,to see if it was straight,convex,or the dreaded "S" shaped warp,which isn't good at all.

I believe Grobets are all still thick as they should be,though the tangs are not tapered (but the tangs don't really matter),however they mark a BIT of a decline in my opinion(as in,what's next?)

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for posting this George. That explains why when I used one to touch up my LN dovetail saw (1095 steel) it wore out obscenely quickly. The Nicholson's I've used seem to work ok in vintage saws, but i was blown away by how quickly the newer steel wore it down. I ordered a couple Grobets from TFWW for my next couple saw projects, and it will be interesting to see how they compare.

[Chris Vandiver]

Has anyone tried the Swiss saw files by Vallorbe that Lie Nielsen is selling? Seems like they should be good files.

[george wilson]

The good,old Disstons I have tested were about 48 R.C.. The 1095 that good,small saw makers all seem to use are 52 R.C.(at least all of mine was). I got it from Precision Steel Warehouse In Greensboro,N.C.. I THINK this is the right name,because we ordered it in quantity that would last for years,since they charged $75.00 to cut stock off of the 1500# coils it came supplied in. But,most all of the machinist's supply places,such as MSC,sell the same spring steel.

These new saws were always harder on files than the vintage saws,but they stay sharp a lot longer,and actually are better than the highly touted old saws.


I expect the Vallorbe files are good. I think they were absorbed by Grobet. The Swiss are too proud of their work to go cheap as easily as some.

[Chen-Tin Tsai]

I also noticed the change in the Nicholson files at the Orange BORG as they went to Mexico. It wasn't that long ago that all of their flat files were made in the US, and I was thinking to myself: "man, it's good to see a company that's holding the line, making a quality product for a reasonable price". I guess no more of that, and what's more, the price is still the same :mad:

I also went and bought all of the NOS "Made in the USA" Nicholson flat files from the local BORGs here. I've noticed that their files would have a 5 or 6 digit code, but the made in Mexico ones have a "N" at the end. For example, the 10" bastard cut mill file has a model number of 21839 for the ones remaining made in the US, while the Mexico ones are 21839N.

[Bruce Haugen]

Has anyone tried Bahco files? If so, how do they stack up?

[David Weaver]

They are also fine. At least the last time I tried them about 3 years ago. Bacho portugal I think were the ones I used.

[Dave Anderson NH]

If I had to guess, I'd bet the N on the end of the model number denotes NAFTA and aids in accounting.

Chris, requiring truth in advertising is a great idea. Unfortunately I'm not Don Quioxte and I don't know of anyone who has that high a tolerance for pain.:D

[whit richardson]

I tried sending an email via the Apex Tool/Coopertool site and got a web app dump.....! NAFTA what was it Ross Periot said about that "giant sucking sound..."?

Seems Mexico gets our tools, auto and electronics jobs and we get drugs, bullets, gangs and ...?

[David Weaver]

Their web app worked for me a couple of years ago. All I asked them was whether or not all of the nicholson taper saw files were going to be mexico, or if it was just a home depot thing, and if it was home depot, where could I still get USA made files.

I guess they figured I wouldn't want to know the answer. My message went through, but they never had the courtesy to answer my question.

Someone not long ago said they were sending all of their file tooling to mexico. I wonder how accurate that was, because there are still USA made flat files at my borg, and have been mixed in with the mexico files for years. I can't believe that they'd still be selling off USA made stock years later, and had that much NOS, but I could be wrong.

I like their USA made files, they are fairly tidy and they were available everywhere. At this point, I figure that I can buy a bunch of them (and like george, I have) and then I'll just send them to boggs as I booger them out draw filing dovetails on planes and such.

[george wilson]

Now,IF I just had a way of hard chroming those files....... Case hardening them will not be an efficient way of making the soft files useful. Depends upon how desperate I get for a triangular(or other) file. Fortunately,being an inveterate tool pig,I have a good stock. And,no,I do not want to sell any,yet.

[David Weaver]

I'll bet you have some fine needle files you'd like to give away!

[Justin Green]

Maybe the N stands for "not hardened"?

[Tony Zaffuto]

I ordered some Nicholson files from MSC a few weeks back and they are also made "south of the border" and are also soft. MSC sells Grobet and Simonds, but not in the pattern I wanted.

[george wilson]

David,you simply cannot communicate with high executives. They are not concerned with much except the bottom line. They do not know craftsmanship,tool quality,or much anything about their products. I got lucky once,but with a much,much smaller company than Cooper Tools:

Several years ago I saw veneer advertised in a well known catalog that starts with an R. It was stated to be 1/28" thick. Veneer has not been commonly made that thick since the 60's,or so. I ordered a thick stack of maple,as my 1950's assortment of veneer ,at 1/28" thick,was getting sparse in maple. Well,the veneer they sent was a 36th. of an inch thick. I called them,and got hold of some executive,explained who I was. He treated me like I didn't know what I was talking about,though I urged him to measure the veneer with a decent caliper,or to simply stack up 1" of sheets,and see if there were only 28 pieces in the stack. Any idiot could manage that. I seemed to get nowhere with him,and gave up.

Next year,or two later,at least I saw that they stopped listing veneer at 1/28" thick. I got a new catalog today,and for the past number of them,I have seen NO thickness figure given for loose sheets of veneer they sell. They only mention how thick their adhesive backed veneer is.

Apparently no one at that company can be trusted to correctly measure the thickness of veneer so they can advertise it properly. Guess I made a dent in someone's head after all. They ought to stop the catalogs,as I never buy from them.

[Jim Matthews]

I took a class with Tom Lie-Nielsen and he lamented just this problem.

He claimed the new Vallorbe files and some of the Simonds files were quite good. The Nicholson problem came from having a single operator of their #50 patternmaker's rasps.
One person, who retired in the 1980's, was responsible for most of the Nicholson #50 product for nearly 40 years. He was the only one fully versed in the vagaries of their machine.

I suspect the tempering step has been accelerated (time being equated with money), but the tooth pattern is a result of operator input.

FYI - The Iwasaki files are very high quality, perhaps there's a larger line of those files available.

[Trevor Walsh]

I've had luck going to good old fashioned hardware stores, sometimes when another good old store goes out of business one owner has the sense to buy their whole stock. I've found some really nice, fine cut pillar files made in USA for a few dollars. Sometimes other stuff as well. Mostly you have to be willing to go look and spend a chunk of money and buy them all if/when you see them.

[Jim Foster]

As a coincidence, I was in HD today after seeing this post and the Nicholson's were made in Brazil and Mexico, and I was able to see the country of origin on the back when I looked. Nothing made in the USA as far as I could tell. Any testing on the Brazil made files.

[george wilson]

I got a Woodcraft flier today. They now have larger versions of those Japanese files mentioned a few posts above. They have segmented curved teeth ALMOST like the old Nicholsons,which had the curved teeth off center. I have several of those old Nicholson "super shear" files,and they are really great for shearing off wood,or metal. I wish the Japanese ones were the same,but probably by alternating stroke patterns you could avoid the bumpy tooth patterns you get with the curved,on center lead vixen files. They are $39.99 each at Woodcraft,which is similar to what the Nicholsons sold for.

[John Coloccia]

I got a Woodcraft flier today. They now have larger versions of those Japanese files mentioned a few posts above. They have segmented curved teeth ALMOST like the old Nicholsons,which had the curved teeth off center. I have several of those old Nicholson "super shear" files,and they are really great for shearing off wood,or metal. I wish the Japanese ones were the same,but probably by alternating stroke patterns you could avoid the bumpy tooth patterns you get with the curved,on center lead vixen files. They are $39.99 each at Woodcraft,which is similar to what the Nicholsons sold for.

The Iwasakis give a very smooth finish. I have some really coarse ones I don't use much (far too aggressive for most of my work). PM your address. I'll send you the coarse ones to try out if you'd like. I wouldn't attack metal with them, but I find them much smoother than the vixen files :)

[george wilson]

O.K.,my address is in your PM. I appreciate the generous offer. If you want more of that bias tape,let me know. Thank you. I can find something nice to send you,otherwise.

[Ryan Baker]

I have also noticed how fast those triangle files dull. They don't last very long even in fully annealed metal. I went through a pile of them making floats.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of people buying files at hardware stores will never notice the difference, so management is unlikely to improve things.

[Andrew Joiner]

The news travels fast these days.

I just got back from my local store. I went through the line with all the last of the USA made Nicholson's I needed. They had only one or two of each file in the back of the stacks that was USA stamped. Lot's of made in Brazil and Mexico stock.

The clerk said " You must be a friend of George Wilson" I said " Yes, I am"

Thanks George.






OK, the clerk didn't really say that.

[Jim Koepke]

OK, the clerk didn't really say that.

Shucks, this was giving my ribs a good tickle until I read the last line.

Still a good story.

jtk

[Adam Cherubini]

George, I have files I love and that I am realizing are irreplaceable. Can you tell us your experience sharpening files? I've heard of a company in California and that it can be done at home with vinegar. What's the story?

Adam

[george wilson]

The only way I have done it is by electro stripping,in a solution of hydrochloric acid,with a little sulphuric added(seemed to work better.) There are kits you can get to sharpen files. The blacksmiths tried one. It came with a PVC pipe sealed at the bottom,to suspend the file in.

I don't think smooth files could be resharpened more than once. The teeth lose height from being eaten away. Plus,I have seen some files commercially resharpened,and the edges of the files were wavy from being eaten away.

Some claim you can sharpen files by sand blasting,but I don't put a lot of stock in that,unless they were coarse cut files. You hold the file by the tang,and blast the teeth "from behind". I'd be careful about this process,too. Seems like an easy way to waste the teeth quickly.

[Tom Blank]

I called Apex Tool Group to ask about on-shore/off-shore production for Nicholson files. The lady confirmed the N meant off-shore production. In looking through the Apex website, every file I checked had both the five-digit item number and the same item number with the N suffix. http://www.cooperhandtools.com/brands/nicholson_files/index.cfm

Guess it's buyer beware.

Tom

[whit richardson]

From my local Lowe's, I about cleaned them out! Note the USA tag.

[george wilson]

I re visited our Home Depot. No more USA ones. I ALREADY cleared out their last 11 USA files. Our Lowes only sells those Kobalt files now. Hecho en Chine.(China en Espanol?)

I picked up a few Portuguese knife files recently at a tool event. It seems o.k.. I haven't thought to hardness test it,and I should.

[whit richardson]

Since I became aware I've been checking different places I go and most files I see are China or Mexico. Some of the Nicholson's also said Brazil but the USA's were mixed here and there and a lot of the new files stocked in front were Mexico or China.

[Zach Dillinger]

George, I have files I love and that I am realizing are irreplaceable. Can you tell us your experience sharpening files? I've heard of a company in California and that it can be done at home with vinegar. What's the story?

Adam

Adam, I've sharpened rasps and files in white vinegar. My initial impression was that it works, but that the new sharp teeth don't hold up very long. I experienced chipping of the teeth after one or two uses (probably 2 hours worth of work) in walnut and cherry. So, it does work for short time but it is not a long term substitute for a professional sharpening or new files.

[george wilson]

Zach,the chipping teeth is from the hydrogen embrittlement which I mentioned that acid etching can induce. I think sand blasting would work better for rasps.

There is,though,a hard little skin on files,left by hardening with cyanide,which will be removed by any kind of sharpening.

The old books said that a good(there's the rub!)file was good for 40 hours of work. That was on steel,though. Thought I'd mention it,though this is a rasp thread.

[whit richardson]

All this talk about files beyond having some stock USA made files for standard shop duty what about this hand made files from France that PW keeps going on about? The Ariou and Liogier family firms are what I mean. If a tool is a dream to use, lasts for my sons to fight over and costs from $50 to $90 that's okay. I need some good quality rasps for fine curved work and my existing rasps are a bit coarse.

[george wilson]

There has been a long discussion about Liogier rasps,even with a video some weeks or a few months ago.