Rowing/"pulling" boat suggestions?

[John B Mooney]

Greetings all -

I'd like to build a rowing boat, preferably with interchangeable single or double rowing stations - a larger wherry, maybe? I'd like it to be fast, but it has to have some carrying capacity and be seaworthy. I'll be rowing in some open water, and I'm a 300-pounder who'd like to be able to carry a passenger, another oarsman, or some cargo. I thought I saw a few pictures of a variety of likely designs here on the forum, but I can't find the post now.

I'm very experienced on the water, and not a complete beginner at woodworking, but I've never built a boat before. Does anyone have any suggestions for me?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or advice you may have.

- John

[Sam Murdoch]

Here is a web site that I discovered just this week that may offer a viable solution http://www.merrywherry.com/index.html
and here is one that is just very pretty though likely not just what you have in mind http://www.hogbay.com/canoes/16salmon/index.htm

Let me know if you decide on one of these. i'm pretty keen on one of these but need to do more research. I will visit the folks at Franklin.

Sam

[Steve Baumgartner]

I built a 12-foot "Ellen", one of John Brooks' designs at http://www.brooksboatsdesigns.com/, about 11 years ago and have been very happy with it. We regularly have two 200 lb adults plus cargo aboard and row across about 1/2 mile of tidal water. He also has some larger designs, though, if 12-foot doesn't seem big enough. They are all glued lapstrake construction, which is more work than stitch-n-glue, but I think it produces a much nicer appearance.

Steve

[Mac McQuinn]

I would check out Iain Oughtred's designs, I feel your requirements will need a specialized design although with your water experience, I think you will know the right design when you see it.
Good luck in your search.
Mac

[John Bailey]

Sounds like Iain Oughtred's Tammie Norrie design might be just the ticket. At 13'6" it's big enough for a big guy, not too beamy, so should be a good row, and you'll be able to take a few passengers. I've always thought that was his best looking design also. You can find info here: http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/details.asp?Name=Tammie+Norrie. There is a shorter version also called the Guillemot. At 11'6" it'll be slower and won't carry as much, but may be just as stable. You can find information here: http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/details.asp?Name=Guillemot

[Randy Hock]

You should consider the Whitehall style of boats. Seaworthy, originally built for speed under oars, and great carrying capacity. Great lines as well. CLC has a kit form of "Whitehall" rowing boat. Here's the link http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/rowboats/fixed-seat-rowboats/chester-yawl-row-boat-kit.html. I saw guys making CLC stitch and glue kayaks at the Woodenboat School one year. The made great progress in a week. The kits seem to be a relatively easy way to build your own first boat.
Randy

[John Bailey]

You should consider the Whitehall style of boats. Seaworthy, originally built for speed under oars, and great carrying capacity. Great lines as well. CLC has a kit form of "Whitehall" rowing boat. Here's the link http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/rowboats/fixed-seat-rowboats/chester-yawl-row-boat-kit.html. I saw guys making CLC stitch and glue kayaks at the Woodenboat School one year. The made great progress in a week. The kits seem to be a relatively easy way to build your own first boat.
Randy

That CLC Whitehall looks like a good one too. I built a pram from CLC and the kit was top notch.

[John Bailey]

I built a 12-foot "Ellen", one of John Brooks' designs at http://www.brooksboatsdesigns.com/, about 11 years ago and have been very happy with it. We regularly have two 200 lb adults plus cargo aboard and row across about 1/2 mile of tidal water. He also has some larger designs, though, if 12-foot doesn't seem big enough. They are all glued lapstrake construction, which is more work than stitch-n-glue, but I think it produces a much nicer appearance.

Steve

The Brooks boats look great. That's the first time I've visited their site. "Ellen" might be a bit small. Their new "Merlin" in either the 14' or 16' model would be worth a consideration.

John

[John Powers]

Check out Arch Davis' Penobscot 14 and 17. There are a lot of them around. I built his Sanddollar. Full size plans, no lofting, not stitch and glue so minimal mess and his instructions and video make it a cinch. I believe they're good to row. They certainly look like it.

[Mac McQuinn]

John,
I had an Oughtred designed Accorn a few years back and it really slipped through the water nicely. A real classic design.
Mac



Sounds like Iain Oughtred's Tammie Norrie design might be just the ticket. At 13'6" it's big enough for a big guy, not too beamy, so should be a good row, and you'll be able to take a few passengers. I've always thought that was his best looking design also. You can find info here: http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/details.asp?Name=Tammie+Norrie. There is a shorter version also called the Guillemot. At 11'6" it'll be slower and won't carry as much, but may be just as stable. You can find information here: http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/details.asp?Name=Guillemot

[John Bailey]

John,
I had an Oughtred designed Accorn a few years back and it really slipped through the water nicely. A real classic design.
Mac

Right you are about that. I was doing a crossing in a kayak a few years ago and crossed paths with a Pearson 363 pulling a 10' model Acorn. Later that day after setting up camp on an island, I watched the same Acorn sail in the bay for a couple hours with the Pearson owner's 10 year old grandson sailing it. He was having a great sail and I enjoyed a quiet evening watching a beautiful boat and an ear to ear grin.

John

[John B Mooney]

Thanks very much for your thoughts, gents, interesting ideas all. Sam, I think the Merry Wherry is too small, but the Merry Two may be a better look for me. The only thing I worry about is that despite Wayland's assertions to the contrary, she looks a bit fine for my taste, and I think I'd be a bit nervous rowing her in rough water (You're right that the Salmon canoe isn't what I'm after, though she sure is pretty!)

Mac and John, Ian Oughtred's designs are closer to what I was looking for. The Tammie Norrie looks as though she might be a little bit staid under oars for my taste (I don't need sailing capacity), but I thought the Badger (http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/IainO_Catalogue/Badger.pdf) was very pretty and quite close to the traditional Thames skiff style, which has a certain appeal. I'm honestly not sure how well a boat designed to manage the Thames will do on more open water, but she looks like she might handle it well, and has plenty of carrying capacity (any boat whose antecedents were designed as taxicabs must be able to carry a load).

Randy, I had looked at the CLC site, though I had focused on the Annapolis Tandem Wherry and the Northeaster Dory. The Chester Yawl looks like a winner too, and I confess I like the idea of building my first boat from a kit (though it seems a bit like cheating). Both the yawl and the dory look like a number of concessions are made to sailing performance, but those all seem as though they would increase load-carrying capacity. The tandem wherry looks like more of a pure rower, and she looks pretty seaworthy as well.

John, the Penobscot 17 looks like a very nice boat too, but also seems a bit more of a sailboat, though I agree she looks like she would row well.

Steve, I'm particularly grateful for the link to the Brooks Boats site. Of all the boats I've seen, I think I like the looks of their Peregrine 18 (http://www.brooksboatsdesigns.com/BrooksBoatsDesignsplans/Peregrine/peregrine.html) the best. She looks like she'd perform like a champion under oars, and I just like her lines, which is nothing to sneeze at in a boat. I also like the fact that she can be built to accommodate various rowing configurations, including both fixed and sliding seat stations.

What remains for me, I guess, is to figure out whether I have the skills and the nerve to build a boat from plans, or whether I ought to get my feet wet by building from a kit first. The former seems like it would provide a great sense of satisfaction if I can pull it off, but I've spent my life around boats and have a pretty critical eye, so I'm a little worried that satisfaction might be compromised by not executing the build well enough. I have a place in Maine quite close to the Brooks' in Brooklin, so I may take a day this summer to swing by and see them to consult about how difficult their build is likely to be for me. That said, I'd be curious about all of your thoughts as to the difficulty of building a glued lapstrake boat from plans as a first boat-building project. What say you all - can I manage this?

[John Bailey]

Hi John

If you want a real hoot, and see how an inexperienced boat builder builds a plywood boat, take a look at this thread.

http://boats.duncan.com/cyforum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=513&sid=11ac3f21f30d642321b417961789aaf5

That's me a few years ago building an Oughtred Whilly Boat. The hardest part for me was figuring out the Shape of the planks. I still don't quite understand "spiling," so I made patterns out of door skins. It worked well for me. You'll have to devise a way of scarphing the planks to make them long enough. A quick search on the Internet will give you good ideas on that one. I ended up using my radial arm saw and a jig and got perfect results. The thing I disliked most about using ply is using a hand plane. That satisfying feeling of planing long curls just isn't the same with ply. You'll need to get good at sharpening.

I think anIyone with any woodworking experience can handle building a plywood lapstrake boat. It's probably the easiest way to build. I used Oghtred's book to lead me through the process, but there are many good books and any will do well.

Now, after reading your posts, my vote goes to the Peregrine. That looks like a good build to me and seems to fit your criteria well. Great looker!! The fact that you can visit in Maine is a real plus also. I also think it looks like a fairly easy build. Long and narrow will give a little less problem with the plank shapes. I see Brooks recommends a book on building -- I would get that and start dreaming.

Good luck and keep us informed. I would love to see a nice long thread on a Peregrine build.

John

[Jim Matthews]

I'm late coming to this party, and not a boat builder.

I've been considering a drop in rowing seat for my 1946 Old Town "HW" it's 19 feet and change, stem to stern.
I believe the capacity exceeds 1200 pounds, although I wouldn't push that on rough seas.

The advantage of a canoe conversion is roof-top transport.
Any of the wherry and rowing variants mentioned will require a trailer.

Have you considered skin on frame designs, for a first time project?
If lapstrake will do, the CLC kits take most of the guesstimation out of a first project.

Their Annapolis Wherry (http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/rowboats/annapolis-wherry-row-boat-kit.html) may be suitable, if you have fixed rowing seats.
Sure a kit takes some of the fun out of the figuring part, but you'll dip a paddle sooner...

jim
wpt, ma

[John B Mooney]

John, your experience with the Whilly was entertaining and informative. The scarfing with a RAS was intriguing, though I don't have a radial arm saw and I think it would give me the whillys to use it that way if I did. I know what you mean about planing plywood, though - I'm not looking forward to that much. I'm OK at sharpening (WorkSharp and waterstones, mostly), but there's a difference between cleaning up a rabbet and scarfing a hundred or so feet of joints! Did you ever get back to building a boat again, and if so, what did you build?

Jim, thanks for your thoughts. I'm sure a RoWing in a canoe would just fly, but if they're not fully loaded, the center of gravity's little high in most of the canoes I know of, and I'd be worried about its stability in a seaway. I'm lucky to live near the water, so being able to cartop a boat isn't a requirement for me. Unfortunately, CLC's Annapolis Wherry is too small for me, but the Wherry Tandem might do, and is also a pretty boat. I know I'll get a kit wet sooner, and I may yet go that way, but I really do like the looks of the Peregrine better, and I'm still trying to figure out if I can manage a boat from plans alone.

Does "wpt" stand for Westport? My daughter goes to school in Marion, and I've spent a lot of time in your area - it's gorgeous there!

[Sam Murdoch]

John, I'm pretty excited about the Peregrine 18 myself. Perfect for fast and safe rows up and down the Damariscotta River and looking good the whole time - very pretty. Will look more into this too. Thanks for the link. Good luck with your project!

Sam

[Mac McQuinn]

Don't forget Joel White's Sherawater;http://www.woodenboatstore.com/16-Double-Ended-Pulling-Boat-Shearwater/productinfo/400-058/

IMO Joel never designed a ugly boat. I've seen this one in person and it can be built in different types of construction, there's even a Skin on Frame one floating around the net.

Certainly worth a look,
Mac

[John Bailey]

John, your experience with the Whilly was entertaining and informative. The scarfing with a RAS was intriguing, though I don't have a radial arm saw and I think it would give me the whillys to use it that way if I did. I know what you mean about planing plywood, though - I'm not looking forward to that much. I'm OK at sharpening (WorkSharp and waterstones, mostly), but there's a difference between cleaning up a rabbet and scarfing a hundred or so feet of joints! Did you ever get back to building a boat again, and if so, what did you build?

Hi John,

I never did get the Whilly done. That was my second attempt at retirement and too many folks kept throwing money at me to do consulting work. I got busy and got involved in education reform at the state level. I had a former student that was short on cash and was trying to get through boat building school. I donated the half-done Whilly and the wood to finish the project to him. He set up a working display outside a museum in Charlevoix, MI during a festival and a guy paid him $3,600 for the boat and all the supplies to finish it. That went a good way to paying his tuition that semester and I got my workshop back.

I'm winding my consulting career down and should be done with everything on May 1. This will be my third try at retirement and I really hope I have enough sense to stick with it this time. (My friends keep telling me I flunk retirement.) I've been corresponding on and off with Paul Gartside to build his 26' Gaff Cutter (same as Joshua's 116A) I'm starting with a ten foot dinghy this summer, or sooner if I can get to it. It's a Gartside design. We'll see how that goes.

John

[Randy Hock]

There is a certain allure in building boats. Sometimes I get the feeling I am just another moth attracted to the street light on a summer's night. I might fly away for awhile but then I am pulled back. I read somewhere that for every 100 boat plans sold, one boat is actually finished. Even if it is off by a factor of ten, it is still sobering. I have one in storage that is maybe 60% finished. Fortunately, she's small and not costing me anything to store.
I read a book recently, The Year of the Boat by Lawrence Cheek, that speaks to the issue of why amateurs build boats and how the investment in time and money can be of value. The book can be purchased for a few dollars on the Amazon used books section. Not great literature but he writes well and clearly shows that special skills are not necessary to create a splendid little boat. It might be worth a read before making a decision on how you want to spend a year or more of your life.
Randy

[Steve Baumgartner]

Steve, I'm particularly grateful for the link to the Brooks Boats site. Of all the boats I've seen, I think I like the looks of their Peregrine 18 (http://www.brooksboatsdesigns.com/BrooksBoatsDesignsplans/Peregrine/peregrine.html) the best. She looks like she'd perform like a champion under oars, and I just like her lines, which is nothing to sneeze at in a boat. I also like the fact that she can be built to accommodate various rowing configurations, including both fixed and sliding seat stations.

What remains for me, I guess, is to figure out whether I have the skills and the nerve to build a boat from plans, or whether I ought to get my feet wet by building from a kit first. The former seems like it would provide a great sense of satisfaction if I can pull it off, but I've spent my life around boats and have a pretty critical eye, so I'm a little worried that satisfaction might be compromised by not executing the build well enough. I have a place in Maine quite close to the Brooks' in Brooklin, so I may take a day this summer to swing by and see them to consult about how difficult their build is likely to be for me. That said, I'd be curious about all of your thoughts as to the difficulty of building a glued lapstrake boat from plans as a first boat-building project. What say you all - can I manage this?

John,

I'm a pretty experienced woodworker, but the Ellen was my first boatbuilding adventure. I gravitated to John Brooks "Ellen" for three reasons: first, I prefer the lines of a planked boat rather than the (to my eye) slab-sided look that results from most kits; second, John wrote an extensive three-part article for Wooden Boat magazine describing the process for "Ellen" with lots of photos; and third, this design seemed very well suited to my needs. I had considered a Whitehall but hadn't found a suitable set of plans when I stumbled onto John's WB article. The glued-lapstrake technique seemed much more manageable than a full, traditional plank-on-frame construction. The boat came out beautiful. I can attest that she is a joy to row and has held up perfectly. She does not leak at all, and handles the wake from local lobster boats very well.

226367

I would not recommend a glued-lapstrake boat for a novice woodworker, but for anyone with reasonable woodworking skills it is a fun, challenging but not overwhelming project. John's plans are detailed, and included full-size paper patterns for the station molds and some other parts. Some of the hardest parts of traditional construction are avoided (e.g. the stem and keel are two-part, not rabbeted). Before starting, I took a one-week course at Carpenter's Boat Shop in Pemaquid Maine (www.carpentersboats (http://www.<strong>carpentersboats</strong>)hop.org) to build confidence (though the class project was not glued-lapstrake). I emailed John during the build, and he was very helpful.

This August I'm enrolled at WoodenBoat school for John's two-week course on building the Soames Sound 12 1/2 (his reinterpretation of the classic Herreshof boat). That should be quite a blast!

Steve

PS - I was initially terrified at the concept of spiling, but found it to be a lot easier than I had feared (YMMV).

[John B Mooney]

Randy, I ordered Lawrence Cheek's book, and I'm looking forward to reading it. I don't want to be the owner of one of those 99 unfinished boats, and the book looks like a good description of what I'm getting myself into, both from a practical and emotional point of view, as well as an entertaining read.

Steve, thanks for the reply. Your "Ellen" is lovely, and I'm curious about where she's resting in that photo - it's clearly Maine (or maybe Nova Scotia), and she looks right at home. I'm also curious about your warning that the glued lapstrake boat isn't a project for the novice woodworker. I'm not entirely a novice, but neither am I by any means a master of the craft, so I'm wondering if you could give a brief description of what you think the pitfalls are, and how you would suggest overcoming them.

I'm envious of your Soames Sound 12 1/2 course, and was toying with the idea of building one myself if the Peregrine build goes well (there is a fleet of 12 1/2s on the island I go to each summer near the school). I may have to come and look over your shoulder while I'm up this summer.

- John

[Jim Matthews]

Does "wpt" stand for Westport? My daughter goes to school in Marion, and I've spent a lot of time in your area - it's gorgeous there!
Yep, I live up in the "Cheap seats" of Northern Westport - easy to get to water, without the waterfront problems.

I was thinking about making a similar conversion using the Glen-L design (http://www.glen-l.com/designs/canu-row/scullingskiff.html). You can make the wings pretty high to clear the gunnels.
The downside is fixing it in place - it's not a drop in seat. I have seen some very good designs using fixed seats that are set lower than the canoe seats.

Some of those boats are FAST.

jim
just down the road from Marion, Ma

[Steve Baumgartner]

Steve, thanks for the reply. Your "Ellen" is lovely, and I'm curious about where she's resting in that photo - it's clearly Maine (or maybe Nova Scotia), and she looks right at home. I'm also curious about your warning that the glued lapstrake boat isn't a project for the novice woodworker. I'm not entirely a novice, but neither am I by any means a master of the craft, so I'm wondering if you could give a brief description of what you think the pitfalls are, and how you would suggest overcoming them.

I'm envious of your Soames Sound 12 1/2 course, and was toying with the idea of building one myself if the Peregrine build goes well (there is a fleet of 12 1/2s on the island I go to each summer near the school). I may have to come and look over your shoulder while I'm up this summer.

- John

Hi John,

Good eye! She's on a float in the Little Sheepscot River off Georgetown Island, Maine. She is our primary transportation to the island where we have a summer house (no access by road).

The reason I wouldn't recommend this kind of project to a novice woodworker isn't so much that super-refined skills are needed as that it is a fairly complex undertaking compared to what a beginner is likely to have attempted before. If one doesn't know how to plane a bevel onto the edge of a board, I wouldn't recommend learning by trying it on the 3-d curved edge of a strake! If you are intimidated by something with more than 6 parts or more than 10 steps to make it, you are out of your league! Someone who feels comfortable building ordinary furniture with a combination of machine and hand tools will need to learn some adaptations, but it should be within reach. Nothing comparable to cutting perfect dovetails by hand is required! Also, glued lapstrake construction is very forgiving. If you paint the hull, you can fix a lot of goofs with thickened epoxy.

I would agree with others' recommendations to read some books specifically about glued lapstrake construction, such as John Brooks', Iain Oughtred's and Greg Rossel's. It will help enormously to have a roadmap of what to do in what order; some of it won't be obvious if you haven't built a boat before. If you go with the Peregrine, John's book and WoodenBoat articles are particularly helpful for understanding his methods and how they fit his designs.

[John B Mooney]

Mac, I like the Shearwater, and I agree that Joel White never drew an ugly boat (or photographed one, as near as I can tell), but she's not really what I'm after. Again, too many concessions to sailing for my taste - I'm after a more dedicated rowboat.

John, I'm glad to hear the Whilly went to a good home, and it sounds like you did that kid a great service - I salute you for that. And now a 26 foot gaff rigged cutter? You don't fool around, do you? I looked at Paul Gartside's site, and if I picked the boats you're talking about, I have two observations: 1 - the dinghy looks gorgeous, and 2 - you're gonna need a bigger garage! As to retirement, I guess if you have to fail at something, that's not a bad thing to pick. Best of luck with the dinghy.

Jim, what would worry me about a canoe conversion is not just the height of the seat (though lowering it would certainly help), but the overall stability of the hull form under oars instead of a paddle. If things get weird while paddling, it's a fairly simple matter to recover one's balance by taking the paddle out of the water and shifting one's weight as needed, or using the paddle itself for stability. If you "catch a crab" with oars (particularly long sweeps like you'd use in a boat with outriggers), the oars themselves can become part of a problem that develops very quickly, and you have to not only recover your balance, but get them under control as well. If you don't, you're swimming (don't ask me how I know this! :p) That would be a risk I'd run on flat river or lake water, but it would be outside my comfort zone on open water (particularly salt water, which increases the boat's buoyancy some and makes it float incrementally higher, I would think). I agree, though, if she were upright, she'd be very quick!

Steve, are you on Mac Mahan Island? I have good friends who live at the south end of Robinhood Cove.

I appreciate the warning about the complexity of building a lapstrake boat. I'm pretty good at putting one foot in front of another on a long walk, but I'll have to think about whether I have the chops for this yet (particularly since it seems a shame to put the effort into a wooden boat build and not be able to leave her bright). I've ordered John's book, and will certainly give it a careful read before proceeding further. I may try to take his glued-lapstrake plywood building course in Brooklin in September as well, if I can get the week to do it in.

Also, I may have the opportunity to practice on a much simpler build first, which may be a better way to get started (I've decided to retire the phrase "get my feet wet" for this type of experience! :D) Thanks again for the heads up.

Thanks again all,
- John

[Steve Baumgartner]

Steve, are you on Mac Mahan Island? I have good friends who live at the south end of Robinhood Cove.

Thanks again all,
- John

Good guess number 2!

Steve

[Mac McQuinn]

John,
What about a couple nice Stitch and Glue designs? Sam Devlin's Oarling II and Duckling are pretty nice, should be well within a amateur boatbulder with wood experience capabilities. Here's a link;
http://www.devlinboat.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=1113
*I believe the Duckling is available in both 14' & 17' lengths.

Mac