I screwed up

[Derek Cohen]

Oh boy.


Do you get those moments when it dawns on you that you made a really stupid mistake?


This is a doozy but it is repairable. I would like your ideas.


Its the bench (what else?). I have just realised that the dog hole strip is in backwards. Backwards! No, don't ask the question.


If the dogs were vertical, I'd just leave them and use them reversed. But the holes are angled at 2 degrees ... the wrong way.


I have two choices as I see it.


The first is that I saw out the dog hole strip (with a circular saw on a fence - it is the only way to keep the cut straight), make a new dog hole strip and insert that. This is my preference although it is more work.


The second choice is to fill in the existing dog holes with a plug (contrasting Jarrah?), and drill this for a round dog.


Thoughts?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jim Foster]

Derek,

I'm sorry to hear that. As a first suggestion, I'd look at trying to come up with a dog that will work in the existing wrong holes with little or no modification to the holes. Not optimal, but ... IMO, it seems like a possibility and not too much of a Rube Goldberg.

Note: I'm assuming the angle is slight, like 2 degrees, for a larger angle, more drastic ideas are needed.

Are the holes on the vise backwards as well?

[Zach Dillinger]

One of the things I liked in Schwarz's blue workbench book was a sidebar about "If you have to ask the question, you already know the answer". If I were you, I'd cut the old strip off and replace it the right way. More work, but you'll be happier with it in the long run.

[Mark Salomon]

Sorry about your misfortune...happens all the time to me so I,m always finding new workarounds. Is there anyway to cut the strip out slightly wide, joint it and then reinstall after flipping it end for end?

[Maurice Ungaro]

One of the things I liked in Schwarz's blue workbench book was a sidebar about "If you have to ask the question, you already know the answer". If I were you, I'd cut the old strip off and replace it the right way. More work, but you'll be happier with it in the long run.

Yup, my thoughts exactly. I get more character building experiences every time I do a project....

[Joe Leigh]

New doghole strip and front laminate. No other option at this point, not with the amount of time and effort already expended. And do it right away before you talk yourself out of it.
my.$.02

[Sean Hughto]

Just cut it off and glue on some replacements. The hardest part will be planing the cut off carefully to allow for good mating of the new parts, but even that is just some patience.

Happens to all of us.

[Randall Houghton]

Consider this. If possible rip off dog hole strip with enough material behind the holes to enclose the back side of the holes. Clean up the rip and flip the dog hole strip end to end and reattach to the top. Clean up the front edge and finish as necessary. Just a thought. Good luck.
Regards
Randy

[Zach England]

Sounds like an AFGO. Cut the strip out.

You didn't think someone was going to tell you to half-ass it, did you?

[john brenton]

Why doesn't anyone put their end vise on the left? I've been thinking about that because most of the time I'm not using a piece any longer than 4', and I don't have that much space on the right side of my bench. I bump into the wall sometimes when I'm using my jointer.

I have my face vise on the left, why not have my end vise right there too?

[Sean Hughto]

I suppose you could glue in plugs, and then chop new holes in positions an inch away from the plugged ones. It would look like hell and be a ton more work than just cutting off the existing strips and gluing on some newly fabricated ones. You still have the router jig no doubt, so making another set of slots will take less than a half hour.

[Jerome Hanby]

I would work up some imaginary righteous indignation about how I was tricked into wanting square dog holes then thank my (also imaginary) stars that thsi happened and I can now correct my grevious and put in the round hole that I really wanted. A little delusion can go a long way...

[Zach England]

Why doesn't anyone put their end vise on the left? I've been thinking about that because most of the time I'm not using a piece any longer than 4', and I don't have that much space on the right side of my bench. I bump into the wall sometimes when I'm using my jointer.

I have my face vise on the left, why not have my end vise right there too?

Conventional wisdom is that the face vise on the left is arranged for right-handed people so that you plane towards the vise.

I do not know if Derek is right or left handed, but he could just reverse everything and call it the imperial version. After all, he IS in Australia.

[Derek Cohen]

Mark

The strip cannot be flipped. It is not practical to try and re-use it.

I'm writing this as I want to go to bed (it's late) and need to keep a record of my plan.


The bandsaw, even my large Hammer, is too unwieldy to make a straight cut. Not to mention maneuvering the heavy top into position and keeping it on track. Too hard.


A circular saw has promise but mine is a dinky 7 1/2" blade (I used to use it to break down sheet goods).


The need is to cut straight and keep the two cuts parallel.


The best tool here is a router. Reject the temptation to save the dog strip. It is not too much effort to make another. Rout out one side and then the other. I can only go to a depth of 2", but that will ensure that the top section is a clean edge and square. I'll flip the top and rout from the reverse side. Then make a new dog hole strip and fit it.


Now I'll go to bed.


Let me know what you think.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jim Koepke]

My out of the box question is why not make 4º wedges and glue them to the face of the errantly angled side of the dog hole?

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Why doesn't anyone put their end vise on the left? I've been thinking about that because most of the time I'm not using a piece any longer than 4', and I don't have that much space on the right side of my bench. I bump into the wall sometimes when I'm using my jointer.

I have my face vise on the left, why not have my end vise right there too?

When sawing in the bench vice the end vice hardware could get in the way.

Also pushing against the vise screw could cause stress to the vise.

jtk

[Erik France]

The best tool here is a router. Reject the temptation to save the dog strip. It is not too much effort to make another. Rout out one side and then the other. I can only go to a depth of 2", but that will ensure that the top section is a clean edge and square. I'll flip the top and rout from the reverse side. Then make a new dog hole strip and fit it.
You might consider using the circular saw and a router. When I cut the ends of my new bench top I used a circular saw on a sawboard to get a straight cut, flipped it and finished the cut with the saw. I didn't try to match the cuts from both sides, the second cut edge hit the kerf leaving about half a blade thickness of material. I cleaned that up with a bottom bearing flush trim bit in my router.

[Joe Fabbri]

Couldn't you also opt for slightly enlarged straight dogs? It seems you could pare down against a square guide block, and at only 2 degrees the holes wouldn't be much larger, would they? Or are you set on a certain size dog? And I suppose if you really wanted a slight tilt, you could also re-angle them too in the right direction.

Joe

[Charlie Stanford]

No biggie - learn how to work left handed and the dog strip is oriented just fine!

[Carl Beckett]

Hi Derek,

I am confident you will use better judgement than I would...... ;)

Redoing the strip is the best answer, and consistent with the quality of work you do.

Working each down by hand with a chisel (or gluing a wedge from the underside) would be an option. A thought: Given that its the rotation of the dog that has the stopping force, the contact is really only the very top edge (at the back), and the very front edge (at the bottom). So you might not need full length taper - just a bottom contact surface that will angle it the amount you want. (unless compression, really only two contact points anyway....)

So slightly smaller dogs - and then an insert on the bottom of the benchtop that angles it forward (out of sight, but not mind ;) )

A problem if you want to use the dogs fully extended (or you make longer dogs so they never clear the bottom insert lip)

I suppose if you wanted to be tricky - you could make these as 'replaceable inserts' and say it was a feature to accommodate wear.....?

[Leigh Betsch]

Send it to me. Dog holes in the Northern Hemsphere go the other way!
I haven't been following your build, is it to late the flip the top over?

[David Weaver]

Cut it off and replace it. You only have to do it one time.

It's not a critical decision, though, the bench works either way you choose to go.

[Carl Beckett]

Now I'll go to bed.


Derek


Chuckling. If you are anything like me - you only 'half slept', dreaming of different options on how to fix this.......

[john brenton]

Yeah, I mean their toilets flush counter clockwise for God's sake.

Haha, I just looked that up and it's not because of the Coriolis effect...its the way they are manufactured.


Conventional wisdom is that the face vise on the left is arranged for right-handed people so that you plane towards the vise.

I do not know if Derek is right or left handed, but he could just reverse everything and call it the imperial version. After all, he IS in Australia.

[george wilson]

As my sculpture teacher said: What makes a craftsman better is the ability to cut back into a finished surface and do it all over. We've all been there.

You will never really be quite happy with the bench if you don't correct it. And a bench will last forever.

[john bateman]

Not having a picture, I may be envisioning the wrong problem.
But if you have a row of holes along the length of a board that is part of your benchtop...instead of cutting out the hole board, maybe you could use a router and guides to mill away the top 1/2 or 3/4 inch of the board. Then glue in a replacement strip. Then make a new set of dog holes slightly offset from the old ones.

[Derek Cohen]

Not having a picture, I may be envisioning the wrong problem.
But if you have a row of holes along the length of a board that is part of your benchtop...instead of cutting out the hole board, maybe you could use a router and guides to mill away the top 1/2 or 3/4 inch of the board. Then glue in a replacement strip. Then make a new set of dog holes slightly offset from the old ones.

Hi John

I considered this. However the shaft of the do is 2 degrees the wrong way - both sides of the shaft.

A patch job will not work. It must be all - going through this in my mind it does not seem to be a difficult task.

Regards from Perth (where it is now morning)

Derek

[Jim Neeley]

Hey Derek...

You could always send it to your "Alaskan lefty" and I'll put it to good use.

I've no ideas that haven't already been covered here. We all know the *right* one.. unless you decided to finish it for lefty and auction it off for charity (Derek's pocketbook, of course!).

[Michael Peet]

Late to the party, but yes, cutting it off and redoing it is the first thing that came to my mind. Guess this blows your schedule out of the water.

Mike

[John Coloccia]

Easier fix than making a left handed guitar. Don't ask.

Just redo it. It only hurts once. Saw, chisels, planes and a bit of confidence that you can easily redo it and fix your mistakes. The dirty little secret of cranking out great product is that you get VERY good at recovering from stupid mistakes, and the process makes you better at seeing the big mistakes coming. You get good enough that you don't even consider them mistakes anymore and you just chalk it up to inevitability. It's like misspelling a word or spilling a few drops of wine. No big deal. I wish I could remember who I learned that from so I could credit him. I've thrown out a LOT of wood with mistakes in it that today I would just fix and move on.

[Brian Kent]

Good night Derek. Congratulations on your new feature.

[John Coloccia]

As my sculpture teacher said: What makes a craftsman better is the ability to cut back into a finished surface and do it all over. We've all been there.

Holy cow, ain't that the truth. Putting "stuff" back when you took away too much really ups your game.

[Eric Brown]

Perhaps Derek made this mistake on purpose just to show that we all make errors now and then. Now he gets to document the "fix" and give hope to others that all is not lost. He's showing the way to approach problems in life, to first acknowledge the problem and then to directly figure out a remedy. Perhaps the bench will take longer to build, but so what. It is more important to do it right. He is approaching the problem as a challenge. It's a good lesson.

So Derek, cut it out and do it over. Remember, to go faster - Slow Down.

Eric

[george wilson]

John,your "left handed guitar" reference reminds me of one of my journeymen going down to Hampton to see a guy who made guitars. He brought back a few bits and pieces the guy gave him. One was a perfectly nice German spruce top with the soundhole bored in the LOWER BOUT!! That was a foul up you can't correct!:)

Another funny foul up: The supervisor of the maintenance area was seen trying to put a dollar bill into the TIME CLOCK!! Not sure what he thought he was trying to purchase.

[Pat Barry]

I don't exactly know how far along this is, but I think the idea of a larger hole, filled with a contrasting wood plug, then re-drilled correctly is a fantastic idea. I would be interested in seeing this done by someone because that is exactly what I've been meaning to do to fix my bench dog holes which are similarly tilted the wrong direction due to my improper drilling technique. I just haven't mustered up the wherewithall to do it.

[Jim Neeley]

Hmm.. drilling out a round hole and making the plugs (with square dog holes) in a contrasting ?harder? wood???? Artistic license? ;)

It also just *begs* for the "Can-too put a square peg in a round hole!". :rolleyes:

[Eric McCune]

Derek,

Thanks for posting. I have been following your build and working on my own bench. You probably just saved me from making the same mistake.

I'm sure your fancy Knew saw can help save the day. :)

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks to all that have responded so far ... and please do not let this post stop further ideas coming. All are helpful - even if outlandish they can spur a creative moment.


Firstly, after my initial realisation of the cock up I made (something that is not unusual in my spatially challenged life), my frustration remained mainly for the precious time it would use to make the repair. Repairs do not phase me that much. I think that they are part of woodworking and life. Evaluate, plan, do. This is an opportunity to do something interesting, to be creative. I want to be reminded one day of a success, not of a failure.


It strikes me that few are willing to start again when they make mistakes. I must cut out the dog hole strip and re-make it. Perhaps there is a simple fix, and I appear determined to do it the long and hard way, but modifications as repairs are rarely satisfying. Far better to have the Real Thing.


Reshaping the dogholes is not practical. It is not just that they slope at 2 degees on both sides of the shaft, but that the head of the dog faces the wrong direction. Even if you turn this around, the support for the dog hole head is now absent. I don't want patches.


In the repair I plan the dog hole strip only gets removed as far as the last dog hole. There is no need to touch the side board or the area for the tail vise, and the latter includes leaving the dovetail well alone.


The tool of choice is a power router with a fence running along the outside edge of the bench. I have a 1/2" bit to run in a large Elu router, and plan to take very shallow cuts (although I find the Oak so easy to work after Jarrah).


The advantage of a router is that I can create a perfectly vertical, smooth and parallel set of grooves. I can work the top first, which is the show side, to a depth of 2". Then flip the top over (flip is a relative term for something that weighs 100 Kg!), and make the identical cuts on the other side. I will work short lengths once I get to the underside, clamping each section carefully to prevent any movement of the top. This is not to avoid binding, as with a saw blade, but the inadvertant routing into the sides of the dog strip, which will affect its parallelism.


The alternative is to rout the top section, as described, and then use a hand panel saw to remove the remainder of the waste, with the sidewalls now able to act as a guide for the blade. Your thoughts on this are welcomed.


I have managed to order another length of Oak. This means that there is a good chance that the repair will leave the bench top better than before! The existing dog hole strip is made up of several joined sections. Now I can replace it with one long, continuous piece. An ill wind and all that ..


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jim Koepke]

The supervisor of the maintenance area was seen trying to put a dollar bill into the TIME CLOCK!! Not sure what he thought he was trying to purchase.

Perhaps a little bribe to get the clock to cover his tardiness?

jtk

[george wilson]

I think it was time for him to retire.:)

Derek: I am certain that round plugs fitted into the holes,and bored out for the dogs would probably crack under stress and look bad.

[Jim Foster]

Derek, Glad to see your tackling this challenge full force. I think there are other workable options, but they would all take away from the excellent bench you've built (almost built :) )

PS: I made a dog hole glue up for my Roubo, and cut the first several dog holes backwards as well, luckily my board was long enough to cut the offending dog holes off and start again. However, I decided I liked a simpler bench better for my first bench, and did not use the dog hole board in the final glue-up. I wish making the same mistakes put me at the same skill level, but I've got a good bit ahead of me to get my skills up to the level of the work I've seen coming out of your shop. Good luck with the repair.

[jeff . whitaker]

If one of the "Wood Work'n Gods" like Derek can screw up like this...then maybe there is hope for a wood butcher like me..

[Alan Schwabacher]

You can rip the dog strip off, cutting with a circular saw from both top and bottom and finishing with a handsaw if necessary. In order to reuse it, you'd need to cut far enough over that you'd leave enough wood on the far side of the dog holes to become the new edge of the bench when you turned the assembly around. The piece you cut off would need to have dog holes right down the middle. Of course, to make the benchtop the same width as before you'd need to replace the kerf and wood removed in smoothing, but it might be worth it if there isn't a problem with mortises in the bottom of the benchtop. If you do need to work around mortises in the bottom of the benchtop, I'd use a circular saw to cut down the dogstrip from top and bottom, then handsaw or split the rest off if it didn't cut through. A planer would remove the rest of the spacer blocks from the small strip, and a chisel and plane the rest on the main part of the bench.

A router sounds to me like a pretty unpleasant tool for this task. That's a lot of wood to reduce to dust by a screamer.

[John Coloccia]

John,your "left handed guitar" reference reminds me of one of my journeymen going down to Hampton to see a guy who made guitars. He brought back a few bits and pieces the guy gave him. One was a perfectly nice German spruce top with the soundhole bored in the LOWER BOUT!! That was a foul up you can't correct!:)

Another funny foul up: The supervisor of the maintenance area was seen trying to put a dollar bill into the TIME CLOCK!! Not sure what he thought he was trying to purchase.

Mine was nothing a bit of stress, a good band saw blade, and some additional stress, couldn't fix. Cutting a sound hole off would have been harder. LOL. Maybe some fancy Wilson style marquetry could have made it right...

You know, once again I have to mention that someone should come down there and break your fingers. I think I speak for all of us when I say I'm tired of being shown up by a 70+ year old.

Happy birthday, and many more, for all of our's sakes. You're a treasure, George. :D

[Tim Davis 1947]

Can't you make up for the reverse dog holes by making changes in your dogs?

[Joe Leigh]

"The alternative is to rout the top section, as described, and then use a hand panel saw to remove the remainder of the waste, with the sidewalls now able to act as a guide for the blade. Your thoughts on this are welcomed."

I'm thinking this is the best alternative. It would be next to impossible to get the two routed surfaces to be coplaner so a good deal of hand planing is inevitable anyway. The bigger issue will be the replacement of the front laminate and endcap dovetail detail, and endcap, and tail vise mounting.....

[Charlie Stanford]

Thanks to all that have responded so far ... and please do not let this post stop further ideas coming. All are helpful - even if outlandish they can spur a creative moment.


Firstly, after my initial realisation of the cock up I made (something that is not unusual in my spatially challenged life), my frustration remained mainly for the precious time it would use to make the repair. Repairs do not phase me that much. I think that they are part of woodworking and life. Evaluate, plan, do. This is an opportunity to do something interesting, to be creative. I want to be reminded one day of a success, not of a failure.


It strikes me that few are willing to start again when they make mistakes. I must cut out the dog hole strip and re-make it. Perhaps there is a simple fix, and I appear determined to do it the long and hard way, but modifications as repairs are rarely satisfying. Far better to have the Real Thing.


Reshaping the dogholes is not practical. It is not just that they slope at 2 degees on both sides of the shaft, but that the head of the dog faces the wrong direction. Even if you turn this around, the support for the dog hole head is now absent. I don't want patches.


In the repair I plan the dog hole strip only gets removed as far as the last dog hole. There is no need to touch the side board or the area for the tail vise, and the latter includes leaving the dovetail well alone.


The tool of choice is a power router with a fence running along the outside edge of the bench. I have a 1/2" bit to run in a large Elu router, and plan to take very shallow cuts (although I find the Oak so easy to work after Jarrah).


The advantage of a router is that I can create a perfectly vertical, smooth and parallel set of grooves. I can work the top first, which is the show side, to a depth of 2". Then flip the top over (flip is a relative term for something that weighs 100 Kg!), and make the identical cuts on the other side. I will work short lengths once I get to the underside, clamping each section carefully to prevent any movement of the top. This is not to avoid binding, as with a saw blade, but the inadvertant routing into the sides of the dog strip, which will affect its parallelism.


The alternative is to rout the top section, as described, and then use a hand panel saw to remove the remainder of the waste, with the sidewalls now able to act as a guide for the blade. Your thoughts on this are welcomed.


I have managed to order another length of Oak. This means that there is a good chance that the repair will leave the bench top better than before! The existing dog hole strip is made up of several joined sections. Now I can replace it with one long, continuous piece. An ill wind and all that ..


Regards from Perth


Derek

Rushing to a solution might compound the error. Take a few days off and let your subconscious deal with it.

[Salem Ganzhorn]

Cut it off, hand plane the edge square, and make a new doghole strip. You may be able to save the old one but it was missing a critical feature: on your new one place the first dog hole closer to the vice. It will end up on top of your leg and it won't be fun to mortise into the end grain of the leg but you will thank me every time you need to clamp short stock! I was surprised how often I use my first dog hole.
Salem

[Brian Kincaid]

I know you don't want to consider a 'patch job' but, consider this:
1) shape and glue in 'plugs' that fill the existing holes. Make sure to use a wood that is harder that the bench wood. Maybe ironwood or somesuch.
2) Cut the new dog holes, but leave as much of the ironwood in the back of the hole as possible
3) When Schwartz 3.0 analyzes your workbench in 150 years he will marvel that you integrated a harder wood to reinforce the dog holes, how clever!

:)
-Brian

[Derek Cohen]

Rushing to a solution might compound the error. Take a few days off and let your subconscious deal with it.

Hi Charles

I shall not do any work until this weekend.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ray Nickel]

I thought I was the only person who had done that! I repaired mine by cutting out the whole dogboard using a router to cut a dado at each edge of the existing dogboard,, flipping the bench, using a skil saw to remove the waste between the dados and then a long flush cut bit on my router to match the outside edge of each dado. Glue in a new dog board and never speak of it again.

[Brian Kent]

Sounds like an AFGO.

I get it. An opportunity!

[Charlie Stanford]

Hi Charles

I shall not do any work until this weekend.

Regards from Perth

Derek

My screwups usually come in twos. Think about it before you cut wood.

[Terry Beadle]

I think a panel saw that's very sharp will work but a bow saw will cut faster.

I think I'd cut the whole side off the bench. Hand plane the cut surface to dead square. Weigh myself as I'd have probably lost 10 pounds so far...hoot!

Then I'd cut the remnants of the strip. Make a new strip and glue it to the out side remnant. Plane square and re-glue to the deck... oh... I'd check that the new strip has the hole lean the right direction before I glued it...hoot! I'd also consider putting in some 3/4 inch dowels in 4 ~ 5 places between the peg holes just to reassure myself that it would be stronger than needed.

When you fix some thing like your work bench, I think you will connect with it's spirit more strongly than if it had just popped out right in the first try.
I know when I used to work on my old cars, I'd like them better after I'd performed some project successfully on them. It also kept my sock out of the carburetor as I'd be less willing to stretch the power band too much. So this is a blessing, yep.