Titebond VS epoxy

[Matthew N. Masail]

all the info I've seen with the exception of a Steve knight plane glued with gorilla glue, use regular wood glue for plane laminations.
I can get regular titbond, as in type I or epoxy. why not use epoxy for a waterproof super strong joint? I will have to make my planes with a 5 parts. 2 for the body, 2 cheeks and a sloe, so is there something wrong with epoxy? and if not, does it matter what type?

[John Coloccia]

Well, the epoxy's a lot less convenient, and will generally give you a thicker glue line. I don't think you will see any strength advantage at all with the epoxy. I don't know why Steve uses gorilla glue. It's awful stuff, but he must have his reasons. Maybe he feels it's better on some of the exotics he uses? I don't know.

[Bob Strawn]

I would definitely go with epoxy over titebond. Bob Smalser gives the reasons why, here. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?21822-Are-Your-Glue-Joints-Repairable)

I have had great luck with epoxy.

Bob

[John Coloccia]

I would definitely go with epoxy over titebond. Bob Smalser gives the reasons why, here. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?21822-Are-Your-Glue-Joints-Repairable)

I have had great luck with epoxy.

Bob

This has to do with re-gluing over old glue, not gluing wood to wood. Of the couple of tests I'm familiar with, titebond is consistently stronger that epoxy on clean wood joints.

[Matthew N. Masail]

does that include Titebond I?

[David Weaver]

Unless you are critically concerned with what you might be doing in 35 years, I would use titebond so that the lamination is less prominent.

In the case that the glue joints separate at some point in the future, you'll have a very thin flat glue line, and you'll be able to just sand off the glue and reglue it.

If you are putting a handle in a mortise, then I would think maybe that's a good place for epoxy, because you'll have small gaps, and you'll want to be able to repair that joint.

[Greg Wease]

If you are putting a handle in a mortise, then I would think maybe that's a good place for epoxy, because you'll have small gaps, and you'll want to be able to repair that joint.

I have never tried to repair a cured epoxy joint. How do you go about doing that? Isn't hide glue a more typical choice for securing a handle in a mortise?

[David Weaver]

Yes, probably. My older planes that have come loose have hide glue.

I don't know what anyone else does to repair an epoxy joint, i've not had one fail.

But if one did, I would scuff it with steel wool or something and reglue it without worrying too much about getting the old glue off (if it wasn't in the way).

But like I said, the woody handles I've put into place with epoxy haven't even come loose, let alone let go. I'd suspect the handle will break off in the middle before the mortise lets go.

I did do epoxy from new on a heavy shepherd panel plane kit, because let's just say the handle they provided and the rear infill piece they provided that was (very roughly) mortised were not close to fitting, and there were already places with gaps before you even did anything to fit the mortise to the handle. The handle and the infill that it fit in were literally one square mortise in the infill and a rounded/milled handle tenon to fit into the square mortise (or maybe they were the other way around, either way they didn't match and gaps resulted). Epoxy was perfect for that. In a couple of years of heavy use, not a hint of movement (oily cocobolo to start with, too).

[Leigh Betsch]

I used epoxy (system 3) to glue up my mesquite high angle plane last year IIRC. I glued a lignum sole to the mesquite body, that joint is holding but, I also used epoxy to glue the sides on (Krenov construction) and the tote into the mortise. Those joints are all failing, makes me sick. Very nice plane and works very well but doomed to be firewood some day. I glued the tote back in with hide glue a few days ago. The sides are just cracked loose in spots right now. I made some brass thru bolts that will hold a fence onto it and also hold the sides together. I haven't built the fence yet, not sure if I should put any more time into it or just let it go.
I'll never use epoxy for a project like this again. I think the glue is to rigid and cracks instead of flexing. I know there are epoxy experts that will know how and why the joints failed, but I'm just not much interested in epoxy anymore.

[David Weaver]

Leigh, am i seeing right that the sides are just a continuation from the same piece of wood (as in matching grain)? I wonder why they're moving apart like that.

You should rig up some thing like George had with a broaching tool and punch those planes out of single pieces of wood.

[george wilson]

I don't care much for epoxy. Sometimes it keeps on hardening until it gets so brittle it just lets go.

When I was young,in the 50's,I made the mistake of gluing a classical guitar bridge onto a guitar I made with epoxy. Months later,the bridge flew off with a bang and hit me in the back. Re glued with epoxy,and the same thing happened.

Once you've glued with epoxy,it does no good to re glue a failed joint with another glue. All you're doing is gluing over failed glue. You'd have to entirely eradicate old epoxy before re gluing. I'd stay with the Titebond.

[Mike Henderson]

Well, the epoxy's a lot less convenient, and will generally give you a thicker glue line. I don't think you will see any strength advantage at all with the epoxy. I don't know why Steve uses gorilla glue. It's awful stuff, but he must have his reasons. Maybe he feels it's better on some of the exotics he uses? I don't know.
To me, the only advantage of Gorilla glue is that it will glue just about anything. So if I want to glue some rubber to wood I use Gorilla Glue (or metal to wood, or shell to wood, etc.)

I never did a test, but I wonder how it would work on a failed glue joint where the old glue was left on the wood. Anyone ever try that?

Mike

[george wilson]

Gorilla glue's foam is about the same strength as a foam coffee cup. What about the rest of the joint?

[Mike Henderson]

Gorilla glue's foam is about the same strength as a foam coffee cup. What about the rest of the joint?
I agree about the foam, George. But when you have the two materials in contact, the bond is quite good. I don't use it a lot, only for unusual materials.

Mike

[Dave Beauchesne]

does that include Titebond I?

Matthew et al:

FWIW, Krenov used plain old white carpenters glue ( essentially Titebond I ) on everything,including planes made with exotic wood, and his furniture pieces as well.

The thing to remember here is that you have to wipe down the surface being glued with acetone to remove the surface oils inherent in many exotics and do the glue up immediately - I am a Titebond III fan, but the article done 2-3 years ago by (?? ) FWW had Titebond I fare very well in most/ all categories, with Gorilla Glue not doing nearly as well as anticipated. IIR, only epoxy fared better than Titebond I overall.

I built a Krenov style plane 2-1/2 years ago with Vera ( a close Lignum Vitae relative ) that is oily as the blazes, and white glue has held up well.

Great discussion though - like a Ford - Chevy - Dodge debate !

Dave Beauchesne

[Sean Richards]

When I was doing boat work we used a lot of West System epoxy. Standard routine for oily hardwoods was


Sand bonding surfaces with 80 grit
Wipe down bonding surfaces with acetone or similar and leave for ~15 mins or so
Wet both the bonding surfaces with a neat epoxy mix - no filler, micro-ballons etc
Apply a coat of epoxy thickened with micro-ballons or whatever to one surface
Clamp with enough pressure to get a good bond but not so you get a glue-starved joint

[Steve knight]

Ok I better justify myself. in the early years I tested glues on test blocks and gorilla glue was the strongest on oily woods. I only had yellow glue and gorilla and a few other poly glues to choose from. epoxy just was not practical to use. I tested the joint with all glues and with and without wetting one and both sides. gorilla glue did the best and it worked better at 50 degree or so temps. but remember that was over 15 years ago. I would test scraps when I cut planes to length and see how well the joint held. I started to find the gorilla glue joint would break way too easy way too often on ipe. So I tested the new yellow glues titebond 2 and three compared to gorilla glue. the yellow glues did better then the gorilla glue. Yes it was a pain using the gg it was all over my fingers and it was hard to use up a bottle before it started to thicken enough though I used it several times a week. but it was nice only having to put the glue on the body it made it easier to keep glue off of where I did not want it. plus it did not make the pants slide quite as bad as yellow glue does.
I never used epoxy because it would have been very impractical and even more of a mess.

[Roger Feeley]

I agree with George. GG would be a lousy glue for a butt joint but it seems to have good shear strength. I did some bent laminations for outdoor use and GG was a good solution for me. It's waterproof and doesn't creep. The laminated beams have been part of my pergola for years and still look and work great. Gluing a handle into a mortise would take advantage of the shear strength but I wouldn't use it. I would go with hide glue.

[Mike Henderson]

Ok I better justify myself. in the early years I tested glues on test blocks and gorilla glue was the strongest on oily woods. I only had yellow glue and gorilla and a few other poly glues to choose from. epoxy just was not practical to use. I tested the joint with all glues and with and without wetting one and both sides. gorilla glue did the best and it worked better at 50 degree or so temps. but remember that was over 15 years ago. I would test scraps when I cut planes to length and see how well the joint held. I started to find the gorilla glue joint would break way too easy way too often on ipe. So I tested the new yellow glues titebond 2 and three compared to gorilla glue. the yellow glues did better then the gorilla glue. Yes it was a pain using the gg it was all over my fingers and it was hard to use up a bottle before it started to thicken enough though I used it several times a week. but it was nice only having to put the glue on the body it made it easier to keep glue off of where I did not want it. plus it did not make the pants slide quite as bad as yellow glue does.
I never used epoxy because it would have been very impractical and even more of a mess.
I'm no fan of Gorilla Glue, but if you do use it and it gets thick, stick it in the microwave for a short time (seconds) and it'll be like water. Don't microwave it too long (to the point where it boils) or you'll have a mess in your microwave (no, I've not done that yet).

Mike

[Craig Matheny]

I think there needs to be a shopping trip done to Home Depot as Gorilla Glue comes in two different forms regular (the dark color) which is the one that foams and they have a wood glue (kind light yellowish) dries clear, strong joint and is in my opinion better then tight bond 1 or 2.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

For what it's worth, "Smiths All Wood Epoxy", from LMII has been suggested to me in the past for gluing oily woods. I've had great luck with it with things like cocobolo fretboards, etc. That said, I don't have nearly enough experience in these matters to add much more than anecdotal evidence - the oily tropical woods I've used it one haven't failed, but I may have just been lucky, and I can't say they wouldn't have faired any worse had I used something else. I see Smith and Co. also sells a few other epoxies for different woods, haven't tried them. Haven't used the System Three stuff (other than their mirrorcoat/clear coat as a grain filler) or the West System stuff.

[John Coloccia]

Ok I better justify myself. in the early years I tested glues on test blocks and gorilla glue was the strongest on oily woods. I only had yellow glue and gorilla and a few other poly glues to choose from. epoxy just was not practical to use. I tested the joint with all glues and with and without wetting one and both sides. gorilla glue did the best and it worked better at 50 degree or so temps. but remember that was over 15 years ago. I would test scraps when I cut planes to length and see how well the joint held. I started to find the gorilla glue joint would break way too easy way too often on ipe. So I tested the new yellow glues titebond 2 and three compared to gorilla glue. the yellow glues did better then the gorilla glue. Yes it was a pain using the gg it was all over my fingers and it was hard to use up a bottle before it started to thicken enough though I used it several times a week. but it was nice only having to put the glue on the body it made it easier to keep glue off of where I did not want it. plus it did not make the pants slide quite as bad as yellow glue does.
I never used epoxy because it would have been very impractical and even more of a mess.

This is what I figured. I know a lot of luthiers use GG on exotics like Cocobolo and other oily woods that are otherwise a royal pain to glue.

[Steve knight]

but tiebond 3 now works better. my last tests showed that the joint would have at least some of the other wood still stuck to the joint when I broke it. the gg made a clean break on oily wood like ipe and cocobolo.. not sure what they changed in the formula but they sure changed it.